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Beck???

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by RGF, Dec 2, 2007.

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  1. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Member

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    lol, that post wasn't directed to u. Dan could have put up points, but he was one of the GOAT . . . Beck is just starting, he made ROOKIE mistakes today, I don't even think u will see him practice this week . . . he may be in Film Monday to Friday.
     
  2. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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  3. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Still dont see what all the hype is about this kid. Keep waiting to see it. Looks like he could develop into a decent backup but I havent seen anything more than that at this stage. Guarantee Cameron and Mueller arent going into the 2008 season with Beck as our only option if he doesnt have at least one game this year where he shows some ability to be a legitimate starter.

    None avaqilable in free agency next year and we're not going with Colt Brennan. That guy is a 3 year project and neither Cameron or Mueller will be around if they have to wait that long for a QB to develop. Ryan and Brohm are ready to go NFL prospects.

    Add the fact that we passed on a QB last year and subsequent outcry and if Beck doesnt improve dramatically in 4 weeks, the outcry for a QB will be too much to overlook this year. If Beck doesnt improve, Ryan or Brohm is a Dolphin
     
  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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  5. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    A borderline nerdish devotion to the position, the right physical tools, and being a solid pocket passer are some of his qualifications. Of course, to be a pocket passer, you need a pocket, and the Jets were shedding blocks big-time today. It's worth noting that it wasn't the OL's fault, too: Martin, Booker, and whoever else was assigned to pass protect against a blitz failed miserably today.
     
  6. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I continue to be amazed at how little so many Dolphins fans really know about football. Beck had a bad game today. Anyone could see that. But to give up on him or deem him a bad QB after one poor performance is silly. His picks today were both terrible decisions, but I don't think you can blame the fumbles on him. He had max protection and expected to have some time, but his protection today was terrible. The problem is he has a WR in Booker who is a limited #2 WR, a rookie who is still learning, and not much else as far as options. The picks were a result of trying to make plays that weren't there, but unfortunately there wasn't much there all game. This was one of the reasons I was opposed to trading Chris Chambers. Say what you want about his inconsistencies, but he could get open and drew coverage away from the other WR's. He would have greatly helped Beck. I'm not saying you can definitively say Beck will be a good player, but after 3 games you can't say he won't be. He certainly has a lot to work on, but remember, guys like Peyton Manning struggled greatly in their rookie years too. He threw 28 picks in his rookie season.
     
  7. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    So what you`re saying is it all comes down to how Cowher feels about the whole thing. Fair enough.:up:
     
  8. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Bill Cowher will never be the coach of the Miami Dolphins. Ever.
     
  9. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    No offense man....but is BC your favorite team? You have been preaching Matt Ryan for awhile now...and he doesnt show me a whole lot to go thinking we take him with the first pick.
     
  10. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Hmmm....

    Do you have some inside info that the rest of us lack?
     
  11. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Point taken. But,I still dont think Beck deserves the praise and comparisons he`s been getting thus far. He simply doesnt deserve them.
     
  12. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Is that personal preference? If not,why do you say that?
     
  13. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    When I see the physical tools I'll concede the point. Hopefully next week. Let him throw some sideline patterns with zip instead of that half speed flip he has and I'll be more convinced. Get better accuracy on your deep passes and I'll be more convinced. Right now I see Fiedler II. When I see the potential of Drew Brees I'll get off the Ryan bandwagon
     
  14. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's called critical thinking.

    Why would Bill Cowher quit coaching to spend time with his family, move to Raleigh, North Carolina, and then accept a coaching job with the worst team in the NFL? For the challenge? There's a challenge just down his street called the Carolina Panthers.

    Cowher isn't going to coach this team. People here need to accept that and move on. Cam Cameron will almost certainly be this team's head coach in 2008.
     
  15. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Where were you during the Eagles game? A major criticism of Beck during that game was that he was throwing too hard and too fast.

    His accuracy looked fine to me. On his deep pass to Ginn that became an INT, the ball was heading directly for Ginn: if not for the safety, that was a touchdown.
     
  16. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Nah Penn State and "god I hate Saban for burning me twice" Alabama. I just want us to get the QB derby over with. Last chance we had was Cutler and what do we do, we sign Culpepper's busted ligaments preventing us from moving up. Go back to that year on the Finheaven archives (if they can retrieve them) and you'll see an entire year of me preaching Cutler. Last year it was Brohm and then the bum decided to stay in school. This year its Ryan with Brohm a 2nd choice. I just want our franchise QB to be settled for the next ten years. I dont see anything franchise about Beck yet. If I did I could get back to my true love - defense. Remember this guy - Jeremy Thompson DE - Wake Forest. I think we can get him with our 2nd or 3rd. He's going to be a beast

    Also with Ryan, he's kind of in the same situation Cutler was in at Vanderbilt and the same stuff was said about him. Dont see the production, dont see the potential. etc... Both QBs played with zero talent around them. Ryan has no running backs and no receivers and still had his team in contention for the championship for most of the season. He'll light it up in the all star games and combines
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2007
  17. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Seriously, this place has somehow managed to be even worse of a message board to read than Finheaven's general forum was. I've got to give a hearty congratulations to some of you people, just when I thought you hit rock bottom you've got the tenacity and power of will to scrape down a little bit lower and make yourselves even worse posters.

    He's a rookie. Most rookies have games like this, especially when put in that kind of situation. We dont know how good or how bad Beck is, and we dont know a whole lot more at this point than we did last week or the day he was drafted.
     
  18. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe, but part of that has to do with people seeing what Beck is capable of and the other part is hope that the Dolphins finally found their QB. The comparisons to Brees have been made since draft time and Brees wasn't too successful early in his career either. Beck also showed some nice things in those first two games even though there was little production. But your right that he doesn't deserve a whole lot of praise yet. He has to earn that. But people ready to write him off already is a different story.
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I disagree Adamprez, I've seen Ryan throw too many boneheaded passes, as well as he doesn't have the bazooka arm that Cutler has.

    Brohm looks good, he plays like a very seasoned football player, reminds me of Chad Pennington before all of the injuries, just a QB if you know what I mean?

    That and #1 overall QB's have really disappointed, if it holds true for Dorsey,it holds true for Ryan and Brohm, #1 Qb's have really hit hard times, we have so many holes that unless a Peyton Manning type comes out of the blue, those two are not good picks for us IMO.
     
  20. Jsbaugh

    Jsbaugh New Member

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    Im guessing you missed Ryans terrific game yesterday. 2 picks in the last couple of minutes to lose the game. Ryan wont be the first or second QB taken in the draft.
    To say that Beck is a bust after 3 games shows how much you know about football. Beck did not have a good game, but you cant lay blame all on him. He is on a terrbile team with no blocking, no running game, poor play calling, no defense, lack of WR talent, let me know when to stop. Two of his turnovers were legit. The others were lack of blocking and a tipped ball.
    He will learn from his mistakes the more he plays, but to expect him to lite it up in his third game is a joke.
    I would say the biggest contributing factor to Becks poor game is play calling. The jets could see we had no running game so they played a prevent D all game which limited his ability to find anyone downfield.

    Yes Beck made some mistakes but what are you going to say if he beats Buffalo? It was luck?
     
  21. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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  22. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    QBs are the most difficult position to fill. Just look at the lack of talent in the NFL at that position right now. That's why you have to keep spending picks trying to draft one until you finally succeed. Mueller was right on when he said you draft one every year. In later rounds when you finally have a bonafide starter, in earlier rounds when you dont. Go back the last ten years and the two most successful rounds have been the first and the sixth for some reason. Second rounders almost never pan out. I think only one in the last ten years was good. That has absolutely no relevance regarding Beck but its why you overdraft QBs in the first round. That's when you gamble. If you get it right you're set for ten years. If not you do it again next year.

    The picjks are due in part to Ryan have that gunslinger mentality and belief in his ability to thread in passes in tight coverage. That can be trained out of him but its a good quality to have a QB confident in his arm. There are times in games when you need to take those chances. They are also due in part to the lack of talent he's playing with.
     
  23. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The problem is that drafting Brohm or Ryan won't guarantee you anything except that you just spent two very high picks and a ton of money on one position. I understand it's the most important position, but just taking a QB high doesn't mean he will be good. There have been plenty of QB's with high grades that didn't pan out so taking one far from guarantees that you solved the problem. Now if you didn't have a QB with potential then it's a different story and you obviously need to take a QB, but you won't be able to make any kind of final judgment on Beck after the few game he will play this year. I think unless Beck really struggles for the rest of the year and doesn't make any improvements you have to give him a real chance next year and use that pick on a player that will fill one of our other gaping holes on the team.

    As far as Ryan goes though I'm not all that impressed with him. He throws way too many interceptions. He also makes some great throws, but his high number of INT's really scares me. He at times just makes really bad decisions. I also don't see much of a comparison to him and Cutler. Cutler has one of the greatest arms in football and was on a much worse team. Ryan is on a pretty good team and doesn't have the arm that Cutler has.
     
  24. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I really do think John Beck will be a very good...if not special QB. Today was abysmal....but seriously...alot was not his fault. No offense....but did anyone see Peyton Manning play against SD? What did he have..like 6 Ints??? And he has a running game...and he has recievers....and he has a good O Line.

    At times....especially in the 2nd, I thought Beck was gonn light it up.

    I do think Cam's offense crippled him some. We get a pick and the ball at the 50...and what did he call?? Three straight running plays. Very frustrating, and Im sure Beck was frustrated. He has started all of three games....gets crushed from his blind side twice....and gets rattled to the point where he throws some picks. There was no rythym to the play calling. We cant run. He has no timing with his recievers. We are just a bad team. Bad coaching....and that is the worst thing...week in and week out...we keep saying it. Bad...Bad coaching. Anyone remember the last time we all said...Hmmm...Cam had a great game plan? I cant really even think of one......
     
  25. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I never said he was a bust after three games. I havent made up my mind on him until the season is over. I have said repeatedly I dont see anything in hi9s game that leads me to believe we have solved our search for a starting QB. Right now I think he'll have a long career in the NFL. I'm just not sure if its as a backup or a starter. Right now he reminds of Jay Fiedler and I am hoping to eventually see some sign that he might develop into Drew Brees. If he doesnt improve in 2007, a distinct possibility, then we simply cant afford to bypass drating another QB.n We dont need another RB and Dorsey has developed back problems. DE can be addressed in the 2nd or 3rd round since its avery deep position this year.
     
  26. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Everyone in the NFL can be categorized as "friends to some extent." Big deal.

    Look, if Cowher decides he wants to coach in 2008, there's going to be a bidding war for his services. Withstanding the Dolphins, there will be at least three teams involved: the Panthers, the Redskins, and the Ravens. Hell, let's toss in a fourth, the Chargers. So if the Dolphins enter the fray, that's five teams bidding back and forth for Cowher's services. Scott Boras would kill to be Bill Cowher's agent this coming offseason. If Cowher decides to coach again, he'll make Nick Saban's Alabama contract look like toilet paper.

    All this for a guy who coached with one of the top three organizations in the NFL for 15 years and only won the Super Bowl once?

    Yes, I would say that your judgment is clouded. Cameron is almost assuredly going to be back in 2008.
     
  27. azstryker

    azstryker New Member

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    I'm sorry, but let's get off our high horse shall we??? A bad poster just states his/her opinion with out fact, logic, or reason behind it. Most of the people posting in this thread have points that support their arguments. I have no problem reviewing mine for you if you don't want to take the time to look back. However to come here with "we can't evaluate him properly because he is a rookie in a bad situation" is hypocricy at it's worst. How is your reason not to evaluate Beck any more valid than our reasons to evaluate him?
     
  28. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    Cam's play calling is designed not to get Beck killed or lose confidence.
    Unfortunately, playing not to lose also means refusing to try to win.

    It's really hard to get a read on Beck until Cam takes the leash off.
     
  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I agree that if Beck shows some signs of improvement, some passes thrown that make you say wow, wait till he gets it all together, then we can move on. But if he doesnt, I think QB jumps up to most important position to be addressed. How many times you going to draft numbwer one overall? Hopefully not too often. I'll tell you one sign I'll look for in the offseason. If we dont pick up a QB in free aganecy we're drafting one and I dont see that being Colt Brennan since its going to take two to three years of coaching to get him NFL ready
     
  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont care if they have points to support their argument with at the end of the day, their argument is pretty much completely and utterly dog****. Anyone with a basic review of the history of starting a rookie quarterback would realize that.

    Go look at Hall of Fame quarterbacks. Go look at Peyton Manning throwing 17 interceptions in the first half of his rookie season. Go look at John Elway's rookie season. Go look at Troy Aikman's rookie season and get back to me, and tell me that for good or ill trying to make long term projections or doing anything other than recognizing what happened is particularly reasonable.
     
  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    True, but is Ryan's potential so much greater then John Beck's? Won't Ryan also suffer growing pains on the path to experience?

    Or to take a look at the value to the franchise aspect, if we take McFadden, we can get him the ball one way or another, from lining him up with Ronnie to playing him in the slot etc.

    With a QB, there is only one ball, if Beck beats a Ryan or a Brohm in TC, then they sit on the sidelines and contribute -0-.

    The Browns spent two first round picks on Brady Quinn, and he hasn't played any serious amount of time, can we afford a -0- level of play from our #1 pick in the draft?

    No way, and that is one of the best points behind going defense in April, whomever we draft for the Defense will see the field, early and often.

    BTW, did anyone else notice LBook? He played well in during a terrible loss, this is one of the things that drive me up the wall about Cam.
     
  32. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Are you comparing Beck to Aikman, Elway and Manning?
     
  33. Jsbaugh

    Jsbaugh New Member

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    When looking at Beck, dont look at his final stats. For a rookie QB, especially one on a bad team, you need to look at how he handles himself out there. You need to watch how he handles pressure and his ability in the pocket. To me its obvious he has a good arm. Most of his passes today were bullseyes. I dont think any were underthrown and maybe one or two overthrown. His picks came from him trying to make something out of nothing which is what this team has become. The play calling by Cam has been a joke. To many designed underneath passes that only work if your WR or RB has speed and can break tackles. When you have no running game the D can tee off on the QB or sit back in a prevent D and not give up anything over 20 yards.
    Some of you forget the Jets pounded the Steelers who are one of the better teams in football. They did it by getting to the QB and forcing him into turnovers.
    Beck has the traits to be a good pro QB, but its going to take time since he obviously has no help out there.

    If you are discounting Beck already in his rookie year then you could have done the same thing with Elway, Manning, Young.

    Its been said by many coaches that a rookie QB gets a bye his first year. His second year he needs to show signs of being a good QB and by his third year he needs to lead the team to the playoffs. If he doenst do that then its time to find another QB.
     
  34. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    He's comparing rookie QB seasons.
     
  35. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Lorenzo was nice. Cant pick up the blitz for his life though. I understand why he wasnt allowed to play. He has to learn to block next season.

    I agree you cant play both but with Lemon gone next year and Green probably too, we need two QBs to fuill out the roster. To me, we keep Green as a backup, start Beck for the full season and see if he develops and have Ryan sit on the bench for 2008 learning from Green. If Beck fails to impress we saved ourselves a year and start Ryan in 2009 after a full year of tutelage under Green. Beck becomes our backup and we're set for the next ten years if Ryan pans out. If not we try again lol. Its only one pick and we can address the rest of our needs trough free aganecy and the rest of the draft
     
  36. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that if he completely flops this year then QB becomes the #1 priority, but he would have to be really bad and show no improvement at all to do that. You just can't find out the whole story after 7 games. Especially without any talent around him. Your right about not getting the #1 pick very often, but how bad would it be if we use it on a QB and Beck turns into a good QB? Sure we would have a good QB or maybe two, but the chance at a Glenn Dorsey who only comes around at that position very little is now gone. Maybe you could trade one of your QB's, but if you get anything for him (see Drew Brees) you probably won't get anything near the top pick. It's just too important a pick to use on a position where you might have it solved already. Not to mention the guaranteed money you would have to spend on him.
     
  37. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Did you read and think about the post you are quoting, or did you look at the names and post that? Do I need to use more emotes or draw an interpretation of that in Paint? Seriously, how hard can what I'm trying to communicate here be to understand?

    I could have swore I very clearly mentioned it was difficult to tell for good or ill what we have in John Beck, and even some of the best quarterbacks who have ever played have looked bad early on.
     
  38. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Then why not use Leaf, Alex Smith or David Carr just to make it a fair comparison. The implication is that anyone who criticizes Beck is criticizing the next Aikman or Elway.

    Why dont we compare him to the other rookie QB Trent Edwards drafted one round later. Who's looked better long term in their first three games?
     
  39. azstryker

    azstryker New Member

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    I have looked at their first seasons. Guess what each of them managed to score more than 6 points in their first 3 games. All three of them also managed to not play scared. They all threw down field and took some chances. Some panned out, some didn't. Heck, Manning's fist game was against us and he almost pulled the upset. I knew from the onset that this kid was going to be good becasue we pretty much beat him up and he kept coming. He threw 3 picks, then ended the game with 2 TD passes. Beck on the other hand either told himself, or was told not to take anymore chances and do dump offs over the middle of the field. Either way that is a terrible sign. Either he has chipped away at his own confidence or Cam is doing it for him. Can you honestly tell me your not in the least worried that we did not drive down and score on that last possession?

    Hey, I hope I'm wrong. I hope Beck is lights out from here on out. I just don't see the you can't beat me attitude that the great ones display from year one (even if they're losing).
     
  40. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, the implication is most certainly not. That's a demonstration that even quarterbacks who go on to be the best there are can often look terrible as rookies. I dont know how to communicate any clearly than what I did.

    Uh, Trent Edwards btw? The guy whose thrown 1 TD and 5INTs so far in his career?
     

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