Good god, your argument is TERRIBLY flawed. First of all, a 1-15 record is nothing but a number to me right now. If we went 3-13, I wouldn't feel much better. If we went 0-16, I'd be upset. But we're not, I don't care how we did it, how we "lucked" out, we won a game. We're not going to be looked at as the worse team in NFL history 10 years down the road, plain and simple, no one is going to care about this season. Cameron didn't bench Ronnie Brown the first two games. Ronnie Brown did not stand out from Jesse Chatman during the preseason, so the two shared carries. Cameron isn't a numbers guy, just because Brown was a 2nd overall pick, doesn't mean he was gonna get propelled into a starting role automatically if someone else wants it. Isn't that what every player wants? A coach that doesn't play players that don't deserve to play? In the Jets game, Brown started to really stand above and beyond Chatman, since then Brown received the bulk of the carries and showed that he can be a top 5 NFL back. Trent Green's 7 interceptions? Oh good god, just give the Green argument a rest. Green was brought in because Cameron needed someone he trusted and knew his system well at the quarterback position because he didn't want to start a rookie if he wasn't ready to be played. Enter Trent Green. Trent Green came in, played a few games, and took a big hit. Heat of the moment hit too, the guy was trying to make something happen and he put his body on the line... and paid for it. It's a 5th round pick, big deal. Better than a 2nd for AJ Feeley... 2nd for Daunte Culpepper... We have done a lot worse and the Green trade wasn't all that bad. That 5th round pick helped Beck's development (imagine what it would have been like without Green) and gave Beck a guy to go to when in trouble. We also might have our QB Coach next year if Cameron is retained in that 5th round pick. Playing the "young playmakers"? Again... who are these "young playmakers"? Ted Ginn Jr? Ginn is far from polished, I think he'll be a great WR, but you won't see it until next year, maybe even the year after that. We played him, but we didn't make a scheme to fit him because that's just stupid. Ginn played when he was ready, when Chris Chambers was traded because a deal that you couldn't say no to came up, Ginn got an opportunity to play more often. Ginn proved that he can make plays, when balls came his way, he rarely dropped them. Ginn showed that he can get open and be a deep threat. Now I'm sure you're actually talking about Lorenzo Booker... How many times do I have to say this? Cameron WON'T play a rookie when he's NOT ready!! That's the why Cameron is, I don't blame him one bit. If a rookie wants to play, he has to earn it. Booker missed most of preseason which stunted his playing time because he didn't have in game experience. Not knowing the playbook because of all of that missed time during PS would be a reason too. When Booker was ready to play, Cameron inserted him into plays and he showed that he was ready. Lost a bunch of games due to coaching? Yeah right, our team is just terrible, no way around it. Coaching wasn't the reason we lost, lack of talent is. We didn't have a lot of talent to begin with, but when you lose your starting QB, RB, WR on offense, points aren't going to produce too well. When you lose 4 safeties, 2 LBs (one of which is Zach Thomas), and have a difference DL rotation for a good amount of time... the defense isn't going to be on the same page... Injuries and lack of talent is really why we lost, not coaching. I think you're trying to make something out of nothing with the whole idea that Cameron knew the Ginn family. So what? Big deal... So he knew the family, if he chose him for that reason, it'd be stupid... but I don't see that. Ginn brings a lot to this offense. We just need to bring the other pieces together which will only take time. Ted Ginn Jr. wasn't a bad pick. It's too early to say that... I mean remember a year ago, people were saying Ronnie Brown is a bust... Was it too early then? Yes. But did people still say the stupid stuff saying Brown was a bust? Yes. Going out and calling a bad pick after a year is dumb, without a doubt. Hindsight is 20/20, yes... But why don't people understand if that Patrick Willis played great in SF, doesn't mean he would play that well in Miami. In fact, I think most people are upset we didn't take someone like Willis and Okoye at the moment because of their performance... BUT... I think most posters on FH would have been VERY upset last year if we took a D player with our first round pick because you know... Our D was looking to be top 5 in the league, but it just suddenly died this year. I didn't see this, no one seen this coming. Hindsight is 20/20 people, but it's also a piss poor excuse to bring up as an argument...
I am not even going to waste my time trying to explain my point of view. If 1-15 doesn't mean anything to you then there is no point in going any further with this debate! Thats the problem with a lot of fans - the expectations have dropped considerably!
Yeah right, you don't want to waste my time because you don't have an argument. I'm not saying 1-15 means nothing to me, I'm saying that 3-4 wins isn't going to mean a whole lot much to me or the fanbase as a whole. You put this team at 3-13 or 4-12, peopel will still be calling for Cameron's head. If Cameron went 1-15 next year, then yeah he should be gone. But his first year? C'mon... And the problem with a lot of fans? Okay, right... Go ahead with your indirect insults.
Really? So you think Bill Parcells should have been fired after going 3-12-1 in his first season as a head coach? How about Chuck Noll going 1-13 in his first season as a head coach? Should he have been fired? Should Tom Landry had been fired after going 0-11-1 in his first season as a head coach? How about Bill Walsh going 2-14 in his first season with the 49ers? I'm sure we will see you next year talking about how we have to fire the next head coach because he hasn't gotten the team to the playoffs. That's the kind of mentality I'm seeing here.
I agree somewhat. I understand rookie head coaches and they need time to install their systems. Lombardi, JJ, Landry, knoll, etc... all had 1 win rookie seasons. Landry didnt even have a win in his rookie season, but all those guys had things to look forward to in their building year, (Positives-some type of momentum or focus going into their second year). Im not sure if there is anything to look forward too going into Cams second year. We definately dont have momentum, I dont see any upgraded system as of yet, the players arent buying into him so what makes anyone think they will next year either. I just dont see anything positive that we can build on for next year if we keep Cam. Overall, Im numb on the decision to keep him or not. We do, fine...If we dont, fine...I dont care either which way because I know Parcells will get this thing turned around
Well, it's hard to see much because it's post season of his first year. You won't get excited until after the draft and when TC arrives... that's a given. Granted I have a good amount of faith in Parcells, but I think with a new HC, too much change is going to happen. If we can bring in another good draft class and a couple FAs that can contribute right away, the fanbase will be very excited... We'll just have to take a "wait and see" approach.
Who isn't buying into the system? Seems to me that the only people that may not be buying into the system are aging defenders, and a lot of that could be due to speculation that Dom Capers has been trying to undermine Cam's authority all season long. I don't see anyone on the offense that hasn't bought into the system. Look at the season Ronnie Brown was having before he tore his ACL. Do you think he wasn't buying into the system when he was leading the league in total yards from scrimmage? Do you think John Beck isn't buying into the system? Do you think Ted Ginn Jr. isn't buying into the system? Do you think the offensive line isn't buying into the system?
there were plenty of guys who questioned Cam throught the season... JT, ZT, traylor, will allen, ronnie brown when he wasnt getting his carries, Hadnot, Porter to name a few..all had their comments throughout the season, and those were just the guys who said soemthing publically. If you have even just ONE guy that doesnt buy into the system, that could destroy the whole team. Also, Cams system (In its first year) obviously did not prove to work... I heard the other way around as well with Capers (Who I also wouldnt mind seeing gone) in that it was Cam who was undermining Capers running of the defesne... Now from that standpoint, Cam is the offensive guy and Dom is the defensive guy, Cam close to nothing about defense (and he stated this as weill) and said even when he was hired in the offseason he would do a minimal amount of work with the defense and let Capers run the defense... Also reported that the majority of the staff does not like Cam...If people dont like him (players included) they arent going to buy into his system
I read it so what? we should keep going down the wrong road(keeping in mind that the road back is a long one) just because 1 year has passed? horrible logic whatever Bill decides is fine by me, if he thinks Cam has what it takes then great if he is waiting for his guy to become available then great but don't tell me that we need to stay the course if it is a bad one just for the sake of "saving a year's work"
I agree those player that weren't buying in should go. A coach has the resposiblity to install his system and find the player that fit that system. The players that have been here the last couple of years don't deserve the right to question the system because their play has been frankly lousy. If the players had been playing well inspite of the coach maybe then they would have the right to complain. frankly I blame capers more than cam for the problems with this team.
There wasnt really much done this year. The system didnt work and even robiske said he isnt sure if Ginn Jr. is a number 1 receiver in this league. If robiske is right, then we dont lose really anything from going into another system. I mean ultimately the defense will prbably will stay the same. But who really cares if the offense changes, because in year 1 it didnt work
I still have seen no comments by any of the offensive players stating that they didn't believe in the system. In fact, it has been the other way around. I know that Chris Chambers was loving the system when he was here. I know that Ronnie Brown was loving the system, and I know that Ronnie Brown isn't the type of personality that would question his coach anyway. I've also never seen Rex make a bad comment about Cam. In fact, Rex is one of the players that benefited the most from Cam, because Cam pushed him to get his fat *** into shape in training camp. The same with LJ Shelton.
Oh boy, 1-15...we have a high bar in Miami. So being the #2 pick cuts no mustard with Cam (good IMO) but being a ex player for Cam does? Amazing, so no matter how Green played, or what Green cost, it is all worth it because Green helped Beck led us to 2 td's in 5 games? Green is locus of what went wrong this year, when he went down we were completely unprepared for that, I would have prefered starting Lemon over Green, at least there was some growth possible for Lemon. And Cam should be held accountable for doing so, we took Ginn at #9, some early in the season production would have been nice, instead we fed the ball to Chambers and Booker, which got us nowhere, it would have been better to simply start Ginn and let him take his lumps.. LBooker's seat on the inactive list was simply unfathomable, how our "offensive genius" could not find some role for him is a primae facia evidence of Cam's misevaluation of both or Roster, and our needs this season. Fiddles for Nero anyone? At least two more then likely 3: The first Jets game with the pooch kick Td return, Steelers game when came refused to let Feeley kick a FG, and the Redskins game with the botched time outs.... Here you seem to be in a pickle, if CAm won't play guys until they are ready" then it would make no difference if we drafted Willis or Okoye as they wouldn't be playing aynway, if Cam was willing to play guys before they were ready(Willis Okoye), then why couldn't Ginn and Booker make it into the line up faster with better roles? Cam cannot have it both ways Grids.
I wonder if the decision by Mueller to resign the defensive coordinator prior to hiring a head coach might have something to do with the division that arose between the offense and defense? Undermining the head coaches authority with half the team, before the season even started, could certainly be viewed as the direct cause of what we're discussing now. I say we fire Mueller.
our best QB is who? and we are worried about installing offenses our best TE is who? and we are worried about installing offenses our best WR is who? and we are worried about installing offenses give me a break, enough grasping at straws. by the time this team is ready to win, we could install 3 offenses AT LEAST
well, im obviously not going to go back and search for each article so its your perogative to believe me or not, but, hey, who cares because I really dont. The point is the system didnt work in the first year and we dont know if it will work in the 2nd year if Cam is given that shot and I dont think it is too far fetched to say Cam lost this team immensly down the stretch. It didnt take a football guru to notice Cam didnt look like he knew what he was doing half the time
That argument doesn't fly because, you're assuming that Okoye or Willis wouldn't have been ready in Cam's eyes. The fact that Satele started since training camp, blows your whole theory. Yes, he can have it both ways, and we did.
I agree with you. Saving a year's work seems like a pretty ridiculous logic too. I thought this year was a complete waste. It was a complete misleading year. Other than giving our rookies playing time, what have we accomplished? And please, LIST THEM. It's not like they have anything to grow on, the playing time we gave our rookies is probably the worse PT you can ever give a rookie, especially with the lack of talent surrounded around them. We pretty much through them out there and tried to make them figure out how to play in the NFL on their own. I honestly don't see how anyone can say firing Cameron would get rid of any work or set us back. We are already as low as it can get in rock bottom and the only one with any plan on how to make this team successful is a guy we hired just over a week ago. There is no further setback, there is NONE. Now we have Parcells with a plan on the draft, the coaching staff, pretty much a blueprint of the entire franchise. What ever work Cam & Mueller had put together is out the window. This is the Parcells' show now soon to feature Ireland and possible new coach, and I love it.
I completely agree. Satele, wright, lilbook were major bright spots from our rookies. Ginn was ok from a return standpoint but with our crappy ST we should all understand why (Surprised armstrong isnt fired yet). so from those rookies i think we can look to the future, but from Cam and a coaching (getting players ready, playcalling, overall coaching)perspective, I just dont see it
I'm not saying that 1-15 is a standard of mine, I'm saying it isn't going to bother me much if we went 3-13 instead of 1-15. We're still going to have the same complaints, same excuses, regardless. That ex player for Cameron was playing just as well as that #2 pick at the time. Your argument makes no sense. Chatman filled in quite nicely for Brown when he went down as far as I remember. Our running game went downhill though when Chatman went down with a bad ankle. Your not giving Chatman any credit whatsoever. You're looking into the stats way too much. We all know that rookie QBs aren't going to happen overnight. If we can give up a 5th round pick to speed up the process, that's fine by me. Simply put, your view is pessimistic. Call me optimistic, but neither of us is realistic until reality actually occurs. We can't play for "possible growth", you put the best players on the field at all times. Again, you put the best players on the field. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, maybe not. But I'm not playing a rookie just because of where he was drafted. If he wants to play, he has to earn it. This isn't Madden football, you don't put in your 4th round pick and see him turn from a 71 into an 85 because of playing time. Was it? Booker was gone the entire preseason because he was away with family issues. His girlfriend (or wife) was having a kid, he wanted to be there. It took a lot longer than expected I believe and therefore that stunted Booker's growth. We all know Cameron isn't going to play a player before he's ready. Maybe we can just agree to disagree on this because quite frankly, I'm tired of arguing about this subject. The first Jets game? Okay, right... If Armstrong could put a decent ST unit on the field, we wouldn't be seeing this problem. Steelers game? After Feely just botched the first FG, I can see why Cameron didn't want to kick the FG. That kick went what? Maybe 15 yards? And the Redskin game? Really? His first NFL Regular Season game? Really? Give it a rest. Your trying to make an argument out of nothing right there. I'm simply saying that people wish we would have drafted Willis or Okoye instead of taking Ginn. Because players aren't going to perform the exact same at every destination, that's really stupid of them to think that way. Not only that, but before the draft, our defense was looking to be coming off a top five year... Who knew that we would fall into this hole on defense? So say we do take Patrick Willis or Amobi Okoye... Let's flash back to April, we announce the pick. Could you imagine the fanbase? Cameron is an offensive coach, our problems during the 2006 season was that our offense sucked... yet our 1st round pick goes to defense? The fanbase would be very upset. And then you bring up "Cameron won't play guys until they are ready"... I'm not arguing with that because it is what it is. Personally I have no idea how you got that out of my write up, I'm somewhat unsure how to reply to it. Not because I think I'm wrong, but because I can't help but wonder how something so stupid could come up when I by no means said it in that direction. I'm not arguing that Willis/Okoye would perform well in Miami, I actually said that a player isn't going to perform the same on every team... I'm just saying that drafting Willis or Okoye would not have boded well with our fanbase in April... who knows what would have turned out if we did, but it doesn't matter... Because we didn't draft them.
Actually, no it doesn't because that logic seems to fall on the fact that Satele played Day 1, if our #2 pick was starting Day 1, we wasn't our other #2 playing? or our #1 pick for that matter? Bascially, 2 of our first three picks in the draft were taken with the intention that they would not play this season, or play very limited roles for us this season. If that is by design, the misjudgment of the team heading into 2007 was astounding and rather damming....
it is depressing to see teams coaching up their young players to contribute while we couldn't. just another point against Cam and Capers et al prime examples are Booker and Abe Wright, their were many games when we couldn't get a pash rush. on other teams would they have put uber-scrubs like Spragan and Pope in instead of an explosive young guy? we had this ultra-complex defense that just plain sucked. same goes for Miles, he looks like a rocket out there compared to what we put on the field. with Miles out there perhaps Culpepper doesn't beat our back 7 to the pylons TWICE!! what an embarassing moment!!!!
Was Satele ready when Cam played him? Was Ginn ready when Cam put him on offense? Was Booker ready when he finally got to play? Do you know if any of those guys would have been ready one play sooner if another coach had them? No, all you know is that when Cam played them, they were ready. So how in the world can you make the determination that Cam doesn't know how to get a player ready to play when you have no basis for making that assumption? Was Beck ready, Nope. And Cam didn't want to play him.
They were bright spots, but they really looked like they lacked coaching. Granted they are rookies, but you can just see it like they were out of place, trying to figure it out. They seemed as lost as Cameron. With the lack of veteran leadership and good coaching, what these rookies had to go through this season, and with our record, hell I'll just use what Parcells said about Beck and change it a bit. They were put in a "dangerous" situation in a team that lacked talent in a lot of areas. It was just a bad bad bad year for our rookies to receive any type of PT and I see a load of potential in Beck, Ginn, Satele, Booker and Wright.
because we went 1-15... And I blame alot of our injuries on Cam not preparing then hard enough and having these little school girl practices he had all year
Every player is exactly the same, every position is exactly the same and the only thing that determines when a rookie is ready to play is where they were chosen in the draft? C,mon. Yes, damn Cam Cameron for planing for the future with draft picks and not expecting every one of them to be a vital cog in the Today machine.
If Parcells keeps Cam you don't think that's going to change? Besides, what is the point of mentioning we were 1-15? 1-15 or 4-12 either way we are still missing the playoffs and in need of a serious rebuild.
Agreed, but let's set the bar a little higher then "whheew, we got 1 win were not that bad after all.." Actually what I was looking for was neutrality, neither Ronnie at #2 nor Chatman as ex Cam guy, should have any advantage and should be treated in the same manner. Actually the guy who has improved the most is Lemon, it will take time with Beck and for me, I don't see Trent Green as being a difference maker in that regard, the one who could be is Cam, one of the few reasons why I could see keeping him at HC. The pardox that creates for John Beck is delicious.... Reality is we needed players at #1 and #2, we got projects. Good projects, but nonetheless. I think it peeved Cam Cameron off and LBook didn't see the field because of it. I mean come on Grids, swing passes and dump offs are not rocket science.. The penalty on the play also moved the ball out of the rice paddy and onto solid ground where the kick was much more makeable. Examples were called for wherein Cam's coaching cost us wins, there are three, I think there is one more in the Texans game as well... The fanbase was near rioting for passing over Brady Quinn if we flashback to April.. That move was predicated on "Trust Cam, he knows what he is doing"..err...fool me once...fool me twice....
So why not have Cam at least finish what he started? He started the rebuild and then Parcells and Ireland are coming in to help with it. This 1-15 season seems to be a slap in the face to everyone in the organization about how bad this team actually is. If we win those games we lost by 3 points and finish 6-10 or 7-9, Wayne might have considered us 1 or 2 veterans away from the playoffs again and forget the rebuilding process. At least now it's fully understandable that a rebuild needs to occur.
Jimmy Johnson went 1-15. Guess he didn't know how to get players ready either. What's your evidence that the way Cam handled practices during the season is any different from the way 31 other teams handled practices during the season?
No way you can compare the two util after their careers end. The players said the practices were much lighter than years past. which is a good reason why our defense was gasping for air and not condidtioned well enough to play throughout the 4th qtr
Im not saying dont let him finish, I will agree with whatever BP chooses. I agree with continuity, I also agree with seeing some type of progress.
