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Ronnie Brown misconceptions?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by phinphever, Jan 2, 2008.

  1. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    I have read a lot of posts here about Cam catching heat from some of the fans about the having ronnie return kicks and supposedly benching ronnie in the early part of the season. Below ronnie's running numbers this season.
    Cam played a lot of rookies on the 4th game is why ronnie didnt play and he wanted to keep him from getting injured on the last game of preseason.
    rush rec
    att/yrds recp/yards
    pres1 8/8 1/-1
    pres2 13/57 1/10
    pres3 6/18 2/16
    pres4 -/- -/-
    1 11/32 6/40
    2 11/33 2/36
    3 23/112 6/99
    4 15/134 6/73
    5 23/114 5/39
    6 19/101 9/69
    7 17/76 5/33

    Looking at the numbers you can clearly see what ever Cam did in the handleing of ronnie brown it seems to have worked. After the second game ronnie was just a different back. he was just playing lights out. IMHO calling out ronnie and chalenging him seems to have worked. So how can some people make it a negative thing. The evidence clearly shows somthing happened starting the third game.
     
  2. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

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    I think ronnie finally showed he has something and i sure hope he is healthy for next year but i would not count on it.I believe this is his 3 injury.
     
  3. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    He started getting more carries
     
  4. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    It was more than just that...

    Look at his YPC???
     
  5. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    what about the yards per carry difference.
    Also he wanst just running hard he was just a battering ram.
    He showed a toughness and determination we haven't seen from him before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  6. phinfanuk

    phinfanuk Season Ticket Holder

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    Exactly, I firmly believe Ronnie could have been an MVP candidate had he not got injured, even if it was just to wind up losing to Brady. The improvement our offense saw as a whole until the injuries got on top of them makes me very wary over losing Cam.

    For those first six games we were exciting to watch for once.
     
  7. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    I ddint look... what did they go up to?
     
  8. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    game yard per carry avg.

    1 2.9
    2 3.0
    3 4.9
    4 8.9
    5 5.0
    6 5.3
    7 4.3
     
  9. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    It's a chicken before the egg debate.

    I think Cam is a terrible coach. And he didn't seem to do much right this season. But the one thing he may have done well was properly motivate his best offensive weapon. Or squander his best offensive weapon depending on how you CHOOSE to look at it.

    Did Ronnie not get carries until he started playing well, or did Ronnie not start playing well until he got carries? The most honest answer I can give is "Yes"
     
  10. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    Historically he has always been an above 4.0 YPC guy.
     
  11. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    how do you explain the yards per carry. thats not just a function of more carries. ronnie has never shown this kind of performance on a consistent basis. somthing got him to decide to play like he has always been capable of. also he was catching the ball a lot more that before as well. ronnie was on pace for about 1300 yards before he got hurt
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  12. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ronnie Brown undoubtably became a better player than he was basically ever starting week 3 this season, and I dont think it's unreasonable to suggest Cameron had something to do with it. He spent the entire offseason breaking down Brown's big flaw, which was hesitating at the line, and trying to motivate him to take the next step.

    Running him into his offensive linemens heals before the line was up to par in weeks 1 and 2 would have been foolished and counter productive, and would have encouraged his previous bad habits. Giving Chatman a solid workload there was the right thing to do.

    I think the biggest misconception about Brown now is that his injury is going to have serious repercussions. ACL injuries are not what they were 10 years ago when it killed the careers Jamal Anderson and Terrell Davis. It's a season ending injury that can, but doesnt always have an effect the next year, and it usually isnt that big. He's going to be the starter, and I'm pretty confident he will be reasonably close to last year.
     
  13. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    If you are arguing that YPC = a good back, then your agreeing that Ronnie has always been a good back because his YPC average hasnt been lower the 4.3
     
  14. psingh01

    psingh01 New Member

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    I think most thought it was foolish to have Ronnie split carries with Chatman the first two games. I don't think there was any magic on Cam's part. I think he just though he was smarter than he was by using Chatman.....
     
  15. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    Well I saw a different player on the field. say what you want, I think he has always been good, but this year he was great. And I think cam calling him out motivated him to play better. IMHO
     
  16. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    The point I was making doesn't require me to address the YPC. Ronnie got better after those first two games. Period. Whether that was due to Cam or not is debatable.
     
  17. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    I agree Cam had some part in his pro bowl type season, but I also attribute it to Ronnie going into his 3rd year and gaining experience, plus the line was playing great at that time...All these factors contributed to it
     
  18. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    that was the whole point of my post from the begining. I think Cam called himout and he got his pride hurt and got mad and said to himself I'm not a bust like people had been saying and decided he was going to show everone he wasn't a bust and finally played up to his pedigree. Cam deserves credit for the hadleing of the sit uation. Somthing made ronnie decide to ramp it up. If everyone is going to blame cam for all the problems with this team he also deserves credit when somthing goes right. you can't have it both ways.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  19. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    To date.. RB's tag line should read.... coulda... woulda.... shoulda.... the guy needs to prove he can stay healthy... and motivated... the best ones don't need a coach for that....
     
  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's tons of players who needed the right coach or situation to turn into great players.
     
  21. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    I'll be the first to admit and i agree these players shouldn't need motivation to play hard. But if a coach can motivate a player and he does play harder. it's a credit to the player and the coach that he improved himself. Not everone can stay motivated all the time sometimes other need to hold us to a higher standard. I bet the pats do that. As a team they hold each other to a higher standard. And they don't allow people to dog it. We need that here. don't you guy remeber dave mustache clapping and patting players on the back after a horrible play it used to drive me nuts.
     
  22. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    Ugh..dont remind me, Saban used to do that too and players still do it. Ginn has done it a few times and Chambers always used to do it... What he heck are they clapping about, sucking?!!!
     
  23. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I'm not trying to take credit away from Cam. I'm just saying it is impossible to say whether Cam is the reason that the 2nd overall pick in the 2005 draft started playing at a the high level everyone expects. The only person who could answer that definitively would be Ronnie himself. If you want to say Cam is the reason, and someone else wants to credit Ronnie. You are probably both right
    This is the biggest problem in evaluating Cam. When he has had talent, he has had success. And when his teams have failed, it is always the talent excuse. But having it both ways is giving Cam a pass for not getting Ronnie like production out of Hagan, Chambers, Chatman, D. Martin, Ted Ginn, Lemon or Beck, while simultaneously giving him credit for the one offensive weapon who played well. In fact when you look at it that way it becomes even harder to give Cam anything close to sole credit for Ronnie's emergence this year.

    This is an age old sports debate though. Is it coaching or is it talent? Is Bellichick ever considered a genius if Tom Brady isn't Tom Brady? Does Tom Brady ever become Tom Brady if his coach isn't a "genius?"
     
  24. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    I think it's a combination ronnie gets most of the credit for the improvemnt. my point was I have read some posts here on this forum that blasted cam formishandleing the ronnie situation. I think the situation with ronnie was not mishandled. If anyting cam did the right thing and handled the situation peoperly. This is only in relation to ronnie brown. The improvement of other rookies and young players is a relavant question. I'm not saying Cam should stay or not but, I really think people are really not giving him any credit at all for anything good that has happened this year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  25. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I'd be happy to make that same point myself. It was frustrating for Dolphin fans to watch Ronnie on the sideline while Chatman was running into the line for 2 yards. I think a lot of that frustration became worse when Ronnie wasn't going to get a full year due to the injury. If Ronnie didn't go down for the season, those two games would have meant less to us.

    It was a similar situation with Beck and LoBook. The theory is that Cam was forced into playing Beck before he was ready and it showed. Meanwhile you can make the same Ronnie argument for LoBook. Cam used playing time to motivate him. And LoBook looked like he was shot out of a cannon when he first got onto the field. If you like Cam, and I do believe he has a good approach to young players and how to develop offensive talent, you credit him with LoBook and Ronnie playing as well as they did once they got their shot. If you don't like Cam, and I believe he is a terrible head coach, then you blame him for holding back talented playmakers from a team sorely lacking talented playmakers. And I believe both arguments have truth to them.
     
  26. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    this is exactly why our team was so bad this year

    our head coach was doing the job of the offensive coordinator

    without a doubt, cam did help ronnie become more PRODUCTIVE. its very hard to say whether he was a BETTER back. but he was definitely more productive.

    either way, that is something that is the responsibility of the OC, not the HC
     
  27. Dolphins77

    Dolphins77 New Member

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    I agree. I saw the same thing.
     
  28. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    That is absolutely correct. There are dozens of factors that go into making a great HC. Cam defenders think that since he has a few of the necessary components, that it somehow protects him from being criticized for the overall package. Great, the team didn't absolutely implode during a losing season, and Ronnie Brown looked great for 5 games. Even if you give him sole credit for that, it doesn't mean you should overlook all the negatives.
     
  29. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    I don't think he should not be criticized. I think we have to be fair with him. Not everything was his fault. THis year was horrible. I think Cam got himself into a no win situation. I don't think he realized how much of a rut this team was in. He accepted the offer to coach this team. He accepted the challenge. Was he a complete failure No. Was he a success No. I just think we were going to suck anyway becacue of the talent gap. Then the injury problem. Many factors contributed to this mess. Cam was a part of it. But I don't think he was the main problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  30. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    As I've said before on this board, the 2007 Dolphins were doomed due to Wannstedt the GM. There was a talent dearth that wasn't likely to be overcome by a new head coach.
    This was going to be a bad team. But the Dolphins weren't just bad this year, they were terrible. They were uninspired, unfocused, and sloppy especially when victories were within their grasp. The difference between a terrible 1-15 (almost 0-16) team and a bad 4-12 team is coaching.

    It isn't about making Cam the fall guy for 1-15. It is about evaluating him as a HC. And acheiving marginal success in his role as an OC does not prove that he is a good head coach. Repeating mistakes and getting blown out by other bad teams in the second half of the season were all the proof I needed to see that the man is not a good HC. He failed in that role in Indiana, and he has failed here. He, like many other great coordinators just doesn't have it as a head coach.
     
  31. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    I have to disagree.

    First year coaches, in general, achieve a good deal of success. Usually their scheme is new, and will work, because most teams have not seen it before. Mangini and Payton come to mind regarding this.

    The NFL is a coach's league. There was enough talent on this team to win atleast 4 games. Or atleast not get blown out by the Jets and Bills
     
  32. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    This argument was a blatant reach the first time I saw it and nothing has changed my mind to think it isn't even a greater reach now.

    Brown has been an effective back from day 1.
    Are you going to back credit this motivation from Cameron for Browns success his first 2 years? The kid was strong from his rookie year on. You also saw a player coming into his own as a 3rd year pro. Are you going to back credit Cameron's motivation for 2 years of Browns development as well?

    Camerons handling of Brown was no master motivator at work.
    This was simply a colossal misread of talent on the roster. If you can't succesfully assess and maximize talent on your roster that's a bad sign for a coach.
    It was a troubling sign at yet another aspect of a Head Coaches job that you can question Cams ability on.
     
  33. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    IMHO ronnie had not played up to the value of a #2 pickin the first round. He has been a good RB. BUt not great. He has this season shown me he is a great back. worthy of the 2nd pick. I didn't think that before. I said the way cam handled the situation was not bad. I am not crediting cam as much I am reacting to the idea that cam did a bad thing and was wrong in the way he handled the situation. I was not talking about who was more to credit for ronnie playing well. I was remarking about how can cam be blamed for mishandling ronnie if he played well. Ronnie played well, My premise is that some led me to believe they thought that cam had somehow done somthing wrong in the way he managed ronnies playing time. He was playing at a probowl level how can that be considered bad, what ever cam did wasn't wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  34. Dolphins77

    Dolphins77 New Member

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    What about second year defensive coordinators?

    Cam called no defensive plays or instituted any new defensive schemes. Yet we were near last in all defensive categories as opposed to last year when we were respectable. Is that Cam's fault?
     
  35. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    Of course it is everything is cam's fault. Off with his head!!!!!!!!!!
    seriously, this argument is pointless many just want his head on a pole. Anything less will not be tolerated. Blood is in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy. No point in trying to use logic. How many will want BIll to be fired if he dosn't fire cam. It wil be interesting to see what happens.
     
  36. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I've been on the fire Cam bandwagon since we were 0-13.I've also confessed my deep man crush on Ronnie Brown for the player he had been during his first two years. But I did see a remarkable difference in the Ronnie Brown we saw from weeks 3-7 from how he played since he had been here.

    It is very possible that Ronnie was due for a breakout year, and that Cam squandered his first two games by having him alternate series with Chatman. And that after two losses and a heap of criticism Cam finally relegated Chatman to the bench, while Ronnie seized the opportunity and started hitting the holes harder than he had since he was drafted.

    The question is: Did splitting time with Chatman help motivate Ronnie, or was Ronnie already sufficiently motivated while Cam was mistaken for taking him out of the game early on?

    I want the man fired. But Ronnie did have the best 5 game stretch of his career under Cam. He is a good to great offensive coordinator, IMHO, but he is no head coach.
     
  37. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    The man lead this team to one of the worst season's in NFL history. Most Dolphin fans have been able to remain logical. I've questioned some of his moves, praised others.

    The man took a 6 win team and turned them into a team that barely won one game.

    Defenders have to have something better to offer than:
    -At least the team didn't implode
    -Ronnie looked great for 5 out of 7 games
    -Cam is a good offensive coordinator
    -The team just sucks. And none of it can be attributed to it's leader.
    -Do you want to change systems again this offseason?
    -He started the rebuilding that was long over due. (Funny how most didn't latch onto this one in presason, only after the team was clearly in a rebuilding stage after losing it's first 13 games)
    -Those who don't like Cam are just blood thirsty idiots who refuse to use logic.
     
  38. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    Ok, lets step back for a second. Firstly, I don't know what to do about cam at this point. I think we suck, to be honest we have sucked for a long time. THe 1-15 record was comming. We have not done anything the last 5 or 6 years to improve this team. It's not much of a difference if it was 2-14 or 3-13.
    I honestly think this team was destined for a fall of great proportions. I don't think we could have won any more than 5-6 games. I really at this point don't care anymore. Fire him and the next guy and the next and over and over. It's never gonna end. what is the real difference between this season and 2004 4-12 and 2006 6-10 record? Not much we suck point blank. To blame cam for most of the problems of this team is just wrong. this team was set up for failure before cam even interviewed for the job. If he has any sence he should have told the dolphin's he wasn't interested. this is my last post on this thread. Some will not see reason. Even players get more than one season to Prove thier worth. Why should we give time to a player to develop and not a coach.
     
  39. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    The difference between being 1-15 and 3-13 is 2 wins. When the Dolphins amass the talent to be a 6, 8, or 10 win team, you'll want a coach who can squeeze out a few more wins to get into the playoffs, clinch a division or get home field advantage. Cam couldn't muster that against the Raiders, Jets, Bengals or Bills. Each one of those bad teams blew the Dolphins out. What has he shown you that says he has the ability to become a good HC?

    The difference is coaching. Cam doesn't need to be sacrificed because the Dolphins are bad. He needs to go because he is a bad head coach.
     
  40. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    Your kidding right? 2 wins? wouldn't you be asking for cam to be fired if he was 3-13 or even 6-10?
     

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