Never said that. Read the post you quoted (go back to your post #114 and to my post #89 which shows you what I responded to). You're confusing two separate debates going on, one dealing with signing Tannehill of today as a backup (the post you quoted) and the other dealing with what his ceiling would've been had he had a better environment to develop. Two separate debates. It's absolutely damning no one is signing the Tannehill of today as a backup IF you're arguing we should sign him as a backup. That post was very clear about the context.
You keep making straw man augments. Never did I say that Tannehill had a good situation, nor did I saw he was terrible in Miami. Tua having a demonstrably worse situation, like all time bad for a Miami QB's first two years, doesn't make Ryan's situation "good" for that time period. Tua has benefited greatly from the McDaniel change too. And no, Ryan was the starting WR (still did QB work too) before he was the starting QB in collage, so he didn't start for only "two years". It was only mentioned five or six times a game, every game he played in Miami, so I can see why you may have forgotten. Funny thing is that Tua was the starter for only 2 seasons in college, though he did have that game at the end of his freshman season... remember? Where he came in at halftime... that was ok. Ryan had Joe Philbin (4yrs) and Adam Gase (3yrs) as his head coaches, with Campbell as an interim head coach for the last part of Joes last year. Bill Lazor took over as O coordinator from Sherman for the rest of Philbin's tenure, with QB coach Zac Taylor as the interim when Lazor was fired along with Joe midseason, but obviously no new system to learn with that. Crazy that Joe had two currently successful head coaches on staff when he got fired. Once Gase took over it was Gase's offense, just like it is Mike's offense now. Technically, Clyde Christian was Gases O coordinator for the first 2 years with Clyde moving to personnel in the final year.
My point is that people in here didn't give Tannehill the same leeway way they're giving Tua. We can argue all day over who's situation was worse. They were both bad. Only Tannehill was blamed for the problems, though.
So did Tannehill start at QB for 4 years or 2 years, Taco? I don't really care that he was playing receiver, I know he did that. I didn't realize that the skill set for receiver was the same for QB.
And if you're gonna bring up college, Tua played on an all star team with stud running backs and oline running the show, with Tua throwing to first round draft pick receivers with 5 yards of separation over defenders.
Well, RT never lead the league in anything and was never in consideration for MVP. If you’re only talking about their first 2 seasons, they both were in bad situations, but RT played worse. Saying that, I remember most being willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until a few seasons after when he never really showed improvement. Another thing Tua has done each season.
Look, this is really simple, and I feel like a broken record repeating it yet again and again. Both Tagovailoa and Tannehill started their NFL careers in bad situations; Tannehill with Philbin/Gase and Tua with Flores. Both were average with little talent around them and offensive schemes that didn’t play to their strengths. By the time Tannehill got to Tennessee with the right offense that was geared to his strengths, his window of opportunity was small, having already been in the league for 7 years and a season ending knee injury. Tua was fortunate enough to only endure 2 years under Flores before the Dolphins brought in McDaniel. Tua years 1&2 vs Tua years 3&4 are light years in difference in performance. Just as Tannehill’s performance in Tennessee vs Miami are light years in difference. Tua benefits from still being young and not having had to endure of years upon years trying to be what he isn’t, unlike Tannehill…who now at 36 is well past his prime of what he could have been.
It's not that simple. I keep saying this but there are things you simply cannot teach, and many of Tannehill's deficiencies cannot be taught. Tannehill's ceiling is way below Tua's. You would NEVER have been able to make Tannehill into a great QB no matter the environment while with Tua it's at least possible. Also, if you think you can coach any average-ish QB into greatness just look at all the examples to the contrary. We just went through Belichick with vs. without Brady as a great example. There IS such a thing as innate talent.
If you‘d combine Tannehill and Tua into one QB, Mahomes would be in trouble. Would be a hell of a QB, durable, strong armed, good pocket awareness, quick release, decent scramble and he’d be able to do it with both arms.
The future of sports: genetically engineered athletes lol (someone reading this 100 years from now is asking why the lol).
You've lost the plot. Do you even remember why this is a topic? What does "skill set" have to do with the topic? It seems that you just cannot say, oops I was wrong. Tannehill didn't learn a new O every other year, in fact he played in the same O for his first two years in the NFL as he had in college. But you cannot. You cannot just say "my bad". Instead you are trying to shift the argument to some utterly meaningless nonsense about, "yeah but he only started as a QB in that offense for 2 of his years!" Which makes no difference to the point at hand. Like knowing multiple positions, attending multiple position meetings in the offense some how makes his understanding worse? And, it was well documented that he was the back up QB while being the number one WR, and attended both meetings. Actually, I don't think you have a point to argue. I think you are just trying to shift the narrative away from your initial demonstrably wrong statement.
Res, you can isolate any player at any position in isolation I mean I did and it was the right move to get rid of him
Here we go again.. Is this the only topic you want to talk about ? If you can’t see the elite traits of this Qb you never will. Doesn’t ****ing matter who’s he’s throwing to in this system he’s elite at running it
Tannehill has this unfulfilled reputation that he can move and run.. he sucked at making a play Only thing he was great at was the roll out to either side and throw accurately
Last thing first… Using your example of Belichick without Brady…isn’t that an indictment against Belichick for failing to adapt and continue his team’s success? Laying the blame for a coach’s failure at the feet of the quarterback is lazy. I proved many examples of coaches with average players that were able to adapt and enjoy success. As for Tannehill, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. My life experiences as a drill sergeant and military instructor allows me to assert that people can be taught anything.
Yes it's an indictment against Belichick. That's the whole point. Belichick wasn't this great coach that could coach up any QB to great success like so many here claimed. More importantly, you need to learn from all the mistaken predictions you've made about Tannehill, Brady and Belichick in the past because so many of them are due to this completely mistaken belief it's "all" on the HC. You've consistently undervalued individual talent, especially at QB, which had led to so many incorrect predictions. For example: https://thephins.com/threads/ryan-tannehill.94693/page-216#post-3284917 https://thephins.com/threads/ranking-each-teams-qb-situation-after-the-nfl-draft.95168/ https://thephins.com/threads/ryan-tannehill.94693/page-216#post-3284875 https://thephins.com/threads/pickem-week-12.96851/#post-3419958 etc. And so it's clear, it's not the fact predictions are wrong per se that's the issue. I also thought Brady should retire instead of going to Tampa Bay, but you're systematically wrong when it comes to the effect of QB vs HC. And it's absolutely not lazy to ascribe Belichick's failure to Brady when it coincides precisely with not having Brady!! As far as your claim that humans can be taught anything, that's just provably wrong. You can't just take anyone and teach them how to solve unsolved math problems. How? If no one knows how to solve the problem how do you teach how to solve it?? Actually, you can't get everyone to solve many kinds of already solved math problems lol.. but certainly unsolved ones you can forget about. The list is a LOT longer of course. You can't just take anyone and get them to sightread music perfectly or play back a song they heard the first time perfectly. The list goes on and on. There's ton of scientific evidence we do not have equal abilities or equal potential. This isn't even debatable. It's like saying the Earth is flat. You're provably wrong here. I think the reason you came away with the view that humans can be taught anything is because you were only trying to teach people things most people can learn. Try teaching them things we have evidence most people cannot learn and you would have never succeeded.
Yeah if people are gonna push his college stats when comparing to Tannehill. Why does it make you so upset?
JJ McCarthy out for season. Sam Darnold with a career 78.3 rating is now the Vikings starting QB. This is an ideal scenario for Tannehill to compete for and become a starting QB again. If he doesn't get signed.. well that says it all.
I think the only HC with a proven track record of coaching up his backup QBs for multiple deep play off runs (Both in Baltimore and Miami) is a certain D. Shula.
You mean Earl Morrall? He's an interesting case. Very unusual "backup" QB given how good he was, even before Shula. Over 7 years in Detroit from 1958-1964 his passer rating was 76.4 with 26 games started, and over 3 years with the Giants from 1965-1967 he averaged a 77.0 rating with 21 games started. That was pretty impressive back then because on average that was about 8 passer rating points above league average (like a 98 today). Imagine a backup QB today starting 47 games over 10 years with an average 98 rating lol. That was Earl Morrall before Shula. Shula didn't improve that in any meaningful way. He averaged an 80.3 in Baltimore from 1968-1971 with 26 games started in the regular season and then a 76.2 in Miami from 1972-1976 with 11 games started in the regular season, again on average about 8 passer rating points above league average. As far as playoffs, he only really played one really good game. The rest were so-so or terrible. For example, he ended up with a 0 TD 3 INT game and a rating of 9.3 (lol) in the 1968 SB Baltimore lost. Over 6 games in the playoffs his rating was a pretty abysmal 56.5. So yes he had some heroic moments, but he wasn't a good playoff QB. So I wouldn't say he's an exception, especially since he had similar stats over 4 different teams. And regarding playoff wins, don't forget that back then the running game and defense were far more important for winning.
You consistently overrate Tenn's "all-star cast". The year that they were very good, they looked like crap with Marriota and went to the AFC championship game with Tannehill. The next year, the player losses had already started. With decent pass blocking he was a top 5 QB over a 2 year period. He could not overcome total crap pass blocking. That is his biggest flaw. I find it interesting that nobody blamed Henry for 18 carries for 40 yards in the playoff loss to the Ravens.....
I responded to a specific post talking about people not giving him the leeway they give Tua IN MIAMI.
Hard to overrate his surrounding cast in 2021 where Tannehill had average passing stats yet the Titans were pretty clearly the best team in the AFC and #1 seed. Yes, his performance in 2019 compared to Mariota deserves mention, but that's about it. Tannehill proved over a long career that he's basically just a slightly above average QB who can't elevate team play in any consistent way — he had just that 2 year anomaly where you could argue he did. It was a statistical anomaly, nothing more.
How are you defining subpar? Most of Tannehill's career was average, i.e., par for Tannehill was near league average. And which measure are you using for OL? Maybe post the measure you're using so we can see.
For subpar, I am considering years that were below his ability. Was going on memory of OL rankings, PBWR, time to throw, etc. Much debated and backed at the time the debates were held. In the past, I have also mapped out OL turnover, time in the league after being a starting lineman for Tannehill, etc, etc. Just a sampling (PBWR started in 2018). It is clear that he was regularly being protected by bottom third of the league pass blocking. I can admit that Tannehill might be more affected by poor pass blocking than some other QBs. IMO, that is his biggest flaw. That doesn't mean he needed "perfect" surroundings. PFF Rank in 2016: 2019 PBWR: 2020 PBWR: (Notice the huge drop off, they lost Conklin and Lewan only played 5 games) PFF Ranking in 2020: 2021: PFF Ranking for 2021: 2022:
It's best not to use rankings when measuring something because ranking aren't technically a measure (difference between 1 and 2 isn't a priori the same as the difference between 2 and 3 or between 3 and 4). If I use rankings in a discussion it's because I know I can get essentially the same result using an actual metric. So let's an actual metric like PBWR, which I think is the best we have right now for a measure of pass blocking ability (in this case for the team). From 2019-2023 the PBWR for the Titans were 63%, 53%, 56%, 54% and 60%. The correlation with Tannehill's passer rating is extremely low at 0.17. This disproves your claim, at least using statistics. And just visually note that in 2020 the PBWR was 53% yet Tannehill had a great season putting up a 106.5 rating while in 2023 PBWR was 60% yet Tannehill had a terrible season and put up a 78.5 rating. So based on PBWR you can't conclude that "par" for Tannehill is much different from his passer rating, i.e., his only subpar years were his rookie year, 2nd year and last year, which means PBWR doesn't change the overall narrative: Tannehill mostly lived up to his natural ability of a slightly above average QB with 2 great years and 3 subpar years.
C-Brad? I would think there is some accumulating data on elite hall of fame qbs and win percentage of those teams and what happens when they leave. Like we have this conversation all the time about how much is the Qb affecting wins and losses and some say wins and losses is not a Qb stat. What I’m saying is we’ve had two hall of famers retire and their teams have sucked since. Brees and Brady Anything there yet?
Yeah I bring up these examples all the time. Post #60 in this very thread: https://thephins.com/threads/tannehill-to-miami.98933/page-2#post-3641763 Peyton Manning is also a great example of an elite QB vastly changing the fortunes of the team he goes to. It's very clear that in these exceptional cases the QB affects win% by a lot. In Brady vs. Belichick it's an amazing 5 win difference per season! I have to temper this of course by noting that we could list examples where elite QBs don't help much when they change teams, so it's best to look at overall averages. I think the key statistic to remember is that win% plotted against adjusted passer rating over NFL history is a linear relationship showing a 1.06% increase in win% for every (adjusted) passer rating improvement by 1 point, and elite QBs tend to be about 1 standard deviation above the mean, which is 11-12 passer rating points normally (depends on year). That means that on average "elite" QBs can be expected to increase win% by 12%, or about 2 extra wins per season. Obviously, in some seasons that will be more or less and of course we have cases like Brady vs. Belichick where it was a lot more, but 2 extra wins is what I think you can expect on average.
LOL..... Tannehill performed when he had decent pass blocking and not when he didn't. Period. PBWR is just one measure. I used it as evidence that his OLs were not good at pass blocking. Rankings 100% support my claim. You'd have to dig into the how of the PBWR... how quick was the pressure?, from where?, how many rushers? how many blockers failed on each play? etc, etc, etc. You are trying to use a coarse measure of pass blocking effectiveness to correlate to passer rating. Foolish. It is also not the only factor that affects QB play. His receivers were far worse in 2023 than they were in 2020. What I wrote stands..
No, what you wrote is disproven IF we use PBWR. That's not debatable. And like I said we shouldn't use rankings. You want to propose another measure let's see it. But we need to see the correlation between that measure and passer rating.
