The debate is officially over ....

For some of us the debate has been over long time ago. For others, it will never be over because being proven wrong doesn't matter.

 

Tua's just a spot thrower.

 

facts matter. "Herbert has led his team to victory in late-game situations before. He has 11 comeback victories over four seasons, most recently in Week 3 against the Minnesota Vikings, a 28-24 come-from-behind victory."

 

I like Tua better than Herbert, but I think we also need to consider the coaching. Staley is horrible and has done nothing to develop Herbert.

 

Last night was one of the few times I've ever rooted for Herbert, and he let me down. The kid did have that great run along the sidelines though and got tackled by his shoelace. He was literally one step away from winning it all with his legs.

 

I do wonder what McDaniel could do with Herbert. That's not a slight on Tua, just more of a curiosity Herbert has that "it" I think but Staley is just bad. How he's still employed is beyond me.

 

I think he'd have success in Miami, but I think most QB's would because the system is designed to fit the QB and his unique strengths. With that said though, I think he'd struggle in this offense due to our line blocking.

 

Close the book:

 

Good question. McDaniel's offense with Tua works because of Tua's quick release. Very few QBs could operate the current scheme as well as Tua is. With that being said, I'm sure Coach could scheme better for Herbert's strengths than Kellen Moore is (and Joe Lombardi did) and with some roster retrofitting, could have a similarly successful offense.

It all points to the fact that physical attributes are nothing if the player's not in position to utilize them. I feel bad about enjoying Herbert's problems because I don't dislike him nearly as much as I dislike all of the Monday morning draft experts who literally laughed at us for taking the guy we took at #5.

 

So you are saying he has been successful 11 times and only failed 5?

 

Herbert has 11 4th quarter comebacks so far in his career, Tua has 5. Herbert does not have near the same level of talent around him and weapons to throw to that Tua has, nor does he have great coaching which Tua does. If we did the draft again I would pick Herbert, he is still more talented than Tua.

 

I think he's saying that he's had 6 opportunities to win close games and only succeeded once this season.

 

#1: Justin Herbert played with Austin Ekeler, Keenan Allen and Mike Williams for his entire career. For their first two seasons, nobody thought Tua's surrounding talent held a candle to Herbert's. In fact, we stripped down the roster in a total rebuild prior to Tua's arrival. If the talent caught up in the past two seasons, each had two years to do it with a superior roster.
#2: Herbert is 29-31 over his career; Tua is 29-16. Tua's 5 comebacks are because he's seldom losing late in games and doesn't need to come back.
#3: Were you one of the ones agreeing that Tua needed talent and better coaching to succeed or were you suggesting that he didn't have the traits of a successful QB? If you thought those were excuses for Tua in years 1 & 2, then you're shameless for trying to make them explanations for Herbert's lack of success now.
#4: It's cool that you would pick Herbert. We're here to discuss things and if we all agreed with each other, the place would be rather boring, wouldn't it?

 

We are really gonna pretend Herbert didnt have drastically better weapons than Tua for first 2 years. Ok.
Heres a stat:

herbert winning pct: .483
Tua: .660

thanks for coming. Give me the guy whose talent is WINNING GAMES.
Tua has less comebacks because WE BLOW PEOPLE OUT. Herbert leads the universe in one score loses.

 

This will just turn into another Tua Vrs Herbert thread. The debate will never be settled. This does prove that coaching, continuity, health, and system do matter. Herbert is having a down year while Tua is having a very good year. Five years from now we might have a season where this team struggles and has an off year while Herbert and the Chargers win 13 games. As much as I support Tua and this team, I don't think you can just make a definitive opinion on the situation.
Is Jim Kelly better than Dan Marino? Kelly went to four Super Bowls in the early 90s. There were seasons where Kelly had the better overall year. There were seasons where John Elway had a better year than Marino. I'm not just talking about stats here. Joe Montana also comes to mind if we're specifically speaking about the Marino era.
Boomer Esiason had a better rating than Marino in 88. Jim Everett damn near went toe to toe with Marino in stats the same year. There were times during that era where Warren Moon had better seasons than Marino as well. That doesn't mean that Marino will forever be my all time favorite NFL player. I'm just saying that other guys were pretty damn good during that era and that arguing over this whole Tua Vrs Herbert thing is really stupid. What we do have is an amazing quarterback class between Burrow, Tua, Herb, and Jalen Hurts.

Quarterback success fluctuates over a career. That's my point. You can't go wrong with any of the names I listed during the Marino era. There's a few I'm forgetting I'm sure.

If I can be totally honest, as a staunch Tua supporter and of this team, IF I had to do it all over again, I would have to flip a coin between Tua and Herbert. Again think of it as picking between Marino, John Elway, Warren Moon, or even Joe Montana. All of them were dangerous quarterbacks, not one would I have bet against during their day.

The bottom line is that we finally have a quarterback that can win some games. That's all that matters to me. This isn't a Jay Fiedler situation either where we're winning games with a crappy quarterback.

 

I'm still comfortable with my pre-draft pick- take Burrow at #1 or take Hurts in the 2nd/3rd round. I wasn't wrong and neither were Tua fanatics or Herbert supporters. My pre-draft order would have been:

1) Burrow
2) Hurts (he was very raw and had huge upside, didn't think he'd make an impact so quickly)
3) Tua
4-11) Every other QB in the draft
12) Herbert (never liked him due to attitude problems, reminded me of Manziel and expected an eventual bust)

The funny thing is if I tried to rank them today, I'd still want to put Burrow #1 but that's impossible, he's missed the majority of two seasons due to injury (he did start early this year, but played poorly coming off of injury). He's been seriously hurt all three seasons even though he's the best all-around QB.

So here's my rankings for 2023:

1) Tua
2) Hurts
3) Herbert
4) Burrow

However, Hurts isn't a traditional QB and 4-7 years from now, he's going to be someone's backup in an RG3 or Cam Newton role. His window is much smaller than the other three and will be out of the league 1st. Burrow will also rise once he has a few healthy seasons. Herbert will have a great team/year eventually since he belongs in the NFL.

My career predictions as of today:

1a) Tua
1b) Burrow
3a) Herbert
3b) Hurts

My point is, none of them are bad picks and they'll all have successful careers. Maybe the better question in ranking them would be who will win a Super Bowl ring 1st? If Hurts doesn't get one this season or next season, he may never get one. Herbert may have an opportunity a few years from now. My money is on Tua and the Dolphins.

 

Herbert is only going to have a successful NFL career (as defined by wins and losses) if he gets the hell out of the Chargers. That organization is cursed.

 

He doesn't need to leave the Chargers, IMO. Curses are illogical spiritual constructs that we use to explain a series of negative circumstances. You're cursed until you aren't anymore, not because the curse has been lifted.

I felt that Miami was a cursed organization as recently as Tua's second IR stint last season and it remains to be seen whether the curse has been lifted. I acknowledged the curse when Ramsey was injured on the second day of training camp. I thought about it again when Achane was injured after the best start for a running back in any Dolphins' career. Heck, I even thought about it on Friday when Phillips went down. The difference between the Chargers and Dolphins is simply that Grier and McDaniel have a plan and they're executing it well whereas the Chargers' plan seems to be to trust Herbert's rocket launcher when a .30 cal is enough.

With all of that being said, curses might actually exist and the Chargers (and Fins) possibly are cursed.

 

The Dolphins have at least won a couple SBs and the Chargers have at least been to one. The Browns and Lions are the teams who are really cursed.

 

The Atlanta Falcons have entered the chat:

 

They've been to two SBs. Yeah, they lost that heartbreaker but at least they've been to one recently.

 

They're the only other team that I follow. They lost one Super Bowl after being up 28-3 and lost the other after their NFL Man Of The Year winner was busted for picking up a hooker just a few days before the game.

BTW: My late Pops was a Browns fan and man, that fan base is loyal. Every year, it's the same. If they expect big things, they underplay and wind up with a mediocre team. If they think they'll suck, they'll overplay and have a mediocre team. Dolfans have no clue what other fanbases have endured. With that being said, we deserve better than we've seen on the field for the past 20 years.

Of course, we've got way more to appreciate than most teams in the league so we're not cursed at all. But man, it feels so good to have hope again.

 

I used to root for the Browns just because they were lovable losers and you had to hope they'd do well. Then they did the whole Deshaun Watson thing and I can't root for them anymore until he's gone. Which may be 3 years or more.

 

I was about to swear off of the Dolphins had we acquired Watson. Then, Atlanta tried to get him and I was ready to swear off of them. Then, my Dad's team went so deep to get him, they gave a credibly accused sexual predator the largest guarantee in league history. I now am the only one in my family who roots against Cleveland.

 

I used to feel the same way about the Browns, but I’d add in that I always wanted them to get revenge on the Steelers, because they owned the Browns and the fanbase never let them forget it. The Steelers have one of the most obnoxious fanbases in all of sports, and I love when they get beat and cry about it.

Of course, by signing Watson, they no longer get any sympathy.

 

Honestly, I hated Cleveland ever since Mel Kiper ranted about how Miami was stupid for taking Ted Ginn Jr. over Brady Quinn. That hate seeped over to every Cleveland sports team and Notre Dame.

 

That is what gets me about this site. Excuse was Tua needed talent and better situation around him. Now he has those and suddenly Tua is the one that is great and those other things have nothing to do with it. Then the same people bash on Herbert for not having the same things they claimed Tua needed. Very interesting how peoples views shift to fit their views.

 

Wait, weren't we told a single season\game didn't matter and what did matter was the entire collection of things? Guess, it depends on what is needed to make a point seem valid.

 

I think the bigger key is accuracy. I recall the Tannehill years and i would claim he was very inaccurate and was told it was not him, it was the receivers catch radius was small (LOL) Tannehill could never run this offense.

 

So, you are saying the Dolphins are a better football TEAM then the Chargers? Would you agree bad teams tend to win less then good teams?

 

Not sure if you are old enough to remember all the Dolphins that died during off seasons. There for a while it was spooky.

 

Most fans aren't so stupid that they won't admit (in an honest conversation) that a QB has to be in an optimal situation to display optimal performance. But we get so tied into our narratives and previous statements that we'll go down swinging when it turns out we were wrong. Both QBs are good enough to win big but they both need the right roster and coaches to make it work.

Fact is, everybody can't do what Tua does well and everybody can't do what Herbert does well. You can't make one look better by putting down the other one and you cannot pretend that they don't both have shortcomings. Moving the goalposts is silly, but it's how fans comport themselves in an anonymous forum where nobody has to admit that they're wrong.

 

Coaches are an arrogant lot. Most of them try to pound square pegs into round holes instead of scheming to the strengths of their players. McDaniel saw an opportunity with Tua and ran with it. Most offensive coaches would use Tua the way Godsey and Studesville did and have him throw quick short passes to get the ball out of his hand before pressure arrives. McDaniel uses motion to get receivers in space further downfield and effectively took Tua from being a QB who averaged <6 YPA to one who gets >8 with some of the highest air yards in the league.

It almost sounds counterintuitive that you can have a downfield game and a short time in the pocket, but here we happily are.

 

Honestly, I thought that same thing at the time. As it turned out, I was dead wrong about Brady Quinn. Not about Ted Ginn.