Flores was just trouble from day one it seems. No wonder he went crying to the tabloids. Obviously trying to get his version of events out first. Rubbish coach, good riddance.
Let's not act ike he didn't have legitimate grievencaes. They basically brought him in to tank, and forced players on him that he didn't want.
Everyone has grievance. The weird thing is that you just gloss over that he wanted Mac Jones over Tua. That shows a lack of talent assessment albitites. Unless you think Mack Jones is somehow going to be better then Tua. Do you?
Yeah, I'm not on board with that one, Jones is not any better than Tua. However we all know he also really wanted Watson, and reports are he preferred Herbert over Tua since he likes big QBs.
lol.. nice underhanded way to diss Tua there: "not any better than". C'mon. Tua is #1 in passer rating now 2 years in a row, Mac Jones' ratings are well below average 2 years in a row (84.8 and 81.8) after posting a 92.5 his first year, which is just a tad above average. Those two aren't comparable. One is playing elite, the other is below average.
Here's how I see all of this...and its just MY opinion The Dolphins hired Flores to replace that dumpster fire Gase. If the front office didn't consult with Flores as to their "plan" to tank, they screwed up there however, it should have been quite obvious to Flores that was the plan...the big picture was to tank, accumulate draft picks, draft high and re-build. Miami was trading players left and right...stripping the roster down to nothing. If the Flores allegations of pay to lose are true, it further illustrates Flores' knowledge of Miami's plan. If he wasn't on-board with the "plan", he could have always resigned, but he didn't. He stayed with the Dolphins...for 3 years, with the intent of staying for year 4 until he was fired. Now I've always been an advocate of the head coach having significant input on what players he wants on the team but on the flip side of that card, he's also hired to coach the team that's put together for him. Flores was a defensive coach...and as far as the defense was concerned, he got the players he wanted. Offensively, the organization had a vision where they wanted the team to go. Flores wasn't going to have an impact on the offense as that wasn't his forte. The Dolphins were going to need an OC with an offense suited to Tua's skill set. The problem though was the Dolphins werent going to be able to get that kind of OC due to the drama that was unfolding. The Dolphins were not without blame with how the re-build occurred but lets not anoint Flores as a martyr. Some of this was his own fault as well.
Well, take it from his perspective. Right or wrong, he perceives coaches of color not given a fair shake. So through this plan to tank, miami (maybe inadvertently) play into those his biases and he percieves he's just here to over-see a tough season where he can be easily scape-goated. And all he's done is given black coaches a worse record. I have no love for Flores. But even without the other motivations, as a competitor alone, I can understand his lack of willingness to oversee a tank job.
There are also reports that that isn't true and they all agreed on Tua after not being able to get Burrow
Given the same level of talent and supporting cast, Mac Jones and Tua perform very similarly. This is borne out by by their numbers at Alabama and their first couple of years in the NFL. Tua's numbers skyrocketed past Jones only after he got Tyreek and McDaniel.
To be fair we don't even know that he wanted Mac Jones. He told Tua that as a way to **** on him it doesn't mean he ever really wanted him.
You have no idea how Mac Jones (or any other QB) would perform with Tyreek and McDaniel, though it would most likely be much worse than Tua. We're talking the #1 offense here, one that is on pace to be just shy of NFL records. Almost no QB with any supporting cast has been able to do that, including elite ones. So no, as far as we know Jones would not play anywhere as good as Tua with Tyreek and McDaniel. Don't forget, Jones' stats in years 2 and 3 are worse than Tua's ever was. And college stats are irrelevant. If college was such a good predictor we wouldn't see so many busts, especially at the very top of the 1st round. Furthermore, it's really a stretch to say coaching is an issue when Belichick is considered by many to be the greatest coach ever! Of course, stats show that Belichick is merely an average coach without Brady. Stats also show McDaniel is merely an average coach without Tua (with much smaller sample size of course). Finally, your view of Tyreek is totally inconsistent. You say he's this great elite WR that elevates QB performance, but he didn't elevate Mahomes' performance. Please explain that. Also please explain how Tyreek is doing better with Tua than with Mahomes.
You keep talking like the season is over, let's wait until we have greater sample size and have played better defenses before you start talking about #1 offense and breaking records. What's been done up till now has been on a weak schedule. And yes, it is possible othere QBs could perform similarly well given the great system we are running and the elite weapons we have on offense. Purdy a late round pick was looking like an elite qb in SF until he ran into a top defense. You have to realize system and talent can elevate a QBs play. Tyreek has always been elite, he is doing better now because he is the focal point of the offense and McDaniel is feeding him the ball more, whereas un KC Mahomes was spreading it around more. Mahomes has been great with or without Hill, wheras Tua has only been great with Hill. Belichek is not a great offensive coach. He is a great defensive coach who lucked out on Brady. So no Mac is not benefiting from a great offensive system or coaching, and he certainly doesn't have the same level of talent to throw to that Tua has. Same arguments we always have you just look at raw stats without context. System matters, supporting cast matters, strength of competition matters. You can't always quantify those things on a stat sheet.
Hitman's logic of them having similar college stats meaning it automatically translates to the NFL is just bonkers, even for him.
I'll address each of your points, but first you need to address the points I bring up. One more time: Tyreek is this elite WR that elevates the QB according to you, and tremendously so, yet he did not elevate Mahomes' play. How do you explain that? Don't dodge the question! To your points: 1. I've always pointed out sample size is important, which is why I say Tua is playing elite rather than he is elite. You on the other hand have made it clear many times in the past that you didn't need to see any more data to know Tua is mediocre. It's you that keeps ignoring sample size, only to be proven wrong — you yourself finally admitted you were wrong and said Tua is "elite" in this system. 2. Saying it's "possible" others could perform similarly well isn't sufficient. Where's the evidence that a clear below average QB thus far (not another elite one) in Mac Jones would perform similarly well with McDaniel and Hill? That's the original claim you made, and all you have is college stats which is ludicrous given how uncorrelated they are with NFL performance. 3. Belichick is not a great HC period, not just not a great offensive coach (he is very good on defense). But as long as he had Brady he looked like one of the greatest HC's in history. The QB plays a massive role in how good the coach looks, and you've seen how poorly McDaniel looks without Tua. McDaniel is 13-7 when Tua starts and 1-3 when Tua doesn't start. There's no reason to think McDaniel will look like a great offensive mind without Tua. Where's the evidence? 4. Context always matters. Problem is the context you bring up and pay attention to is proving over and over to be the wrong context. It's what's led to incorrect prediction after incorrect prediction on your part. Your interpretation of "context" predicted Tua would NOT play at a high level period, even with McDaniel and Hill, unless he had a very good OL. You kept harping on arm strength, ignoring Tua's elite accuracy and fast decision-making. And now you're bringing up college stats which we know (through statistical analysis) is the wrong context for predicting sustained success in the NFL. Wrong context is much worse than no context, just so that's clear. And you're focused too often on the wrong context. Again though, don't dodge the question about Hill: why did Hill not elevate Mahomes' play?
Exactly. DeShaun Watson would have been a nightmare for us. Probably Brady as well, although it sounds like he didn't want him. Flores was a great defensive coach and did a miraculous job with X and a bunch of 3rd stringers. Him turning down several years of guaranteed money when he refused to sign his severance package also impressed me- right or wrong, he stood on his morals and spoke his mind. Good for him and I'm glad that he was given more opportunities in the NFL. As much as I liked him at the time though, it sounds like he had an abrasive personality and was completely toxic towards some players and staff members. If I'm reading between the lines correctly, he was also fired for telling off Ross...which I admire but it was clearly a suicide career move. Looking at it today, Grier was clearly on a 5-year plan while Flores (with a 5-year guaranteed contract) was focused on the moment. The spoils go to the victors, as they say, so it's hard to say Grier was wrong at this point. Again, good for him for having the guts to stand up for what he believes in. I was mad when we fired him but I am now thrilled with coach McD and where this team has gone since that time. Parting ways with him was the correct call.
Maybe I look at things from a simpleton point of view, but the race argument doesn’t wash with me. Flores is a coach of color Grier is a GM of color man of color hires man of color. race issue is moot
Because Hill was not the focal point of the offense, and Mahomes can create on his own and has Kelce as well, so Mahomes and that offense did not depend on Hill as much Tua and the McDaniel offense does. That's why the Chiefs were fine with trading him away, and it's also why Hill wanted to come here because he knew he would get the ball more and be the star. Mahomes is also not a system QB as Tua is. Mahomes has all the tools and can be successful in any system. This is not the case with Tua. And your point about Tua elevating McDaniel is ridiculous. This is McDaniel’s fist HC job, he was not even the offensive coordinators in San Fran, there is no reference point of McDaniel leading a team or an offense by himself before Tua, so you cannot say he is having more success now because of Tua. Also the games where Tua was injuries cannot be used as a point of comparison, since you were dealing with practice squad level QBs replacing him or a backup QB in Bridgewater who never started and finished a full game.
That's not answering the question. You're saying that the KC offense did not depend on Hill as much as the Dolphins offense depends on him. I agree with that, but that's completely irrelevant. The question is why did Hill not elevate Mahomes' play? Shouldn't any elite WR raise the level of play of the QB, especially a 1000+ yard receiver 4 out of 6 years he was there? Also, Hill was a huge part of the KC offense. Read almost anything from when that trade was made and many were in disbelief KC would trade such a key component of their offense. This is a WR that due to his speed and route running ability forced defenses to game plan for him. Damn right he was important. So why did he not elevate Mahomes' play? Who cares if it's McDaniel's first job. That's irrelevant. With Tua the offense is elite, without it the offense is average. Very small sample size is the only argument here, unless you're suggesting one can't evaluate HCs until they have a 2nd gig! Also, don't forget that many predicted Bridgewater would do as well as Tua because he has a long history of being an average QB statistically (he started 65 games in his career so it's not small sample size). No, this offense is highly dependent on Tua.
Agree he didn't want to be used as a pawn and ruin his career as a coach. Ross didn't want a winner they wanted to hire a loser that would just tank.
Hill was not a focal point in KC’s offense?? How many times did Hill make the Pro Bowl in KC? Or since he’s been in the league for that matter? You don’t get selected to the Pro Bowl every year of your career if you’re NOT a focal point of your offense.
Let me see if I can be more clear. Mahomes can be great with or without Hill because he has all the tools at his disposable and can find ways to succeed without him, hence you did not see a big drop off in production when he lost Hill. Hill didn't elevate Mahomes much because Mahomes doesn't need elevating and doesn't depend on having Hill to be successful. We've seen mahomes with and without Hill and he is great either way. This is not the case with Tua who has never been great without Hill and is not the type of quarterback who can create on his own and make things work even when he doesn't have all the pieces in place and everything is not functioning like clockwork. In simple terms Tua needs a guy like Hill more than Mahomes needed him. Regarding McDaniel, your assertion was that Tua somehow elevated McDaniel, as if McDaniel was a bad coach before Tua and is now a good coach because of Tua. This is wrong because McDaniel has never been a HC or offensive coprdinator before so we have not point if comparison. And the only times he has been a HC without Tua were when Tua got injured and he had to get by with practice squad QBs. The only thing you can get out of that is that Tua elevates McDaniel.more than a practice squad quarterback does, and even then it is small sample size.
hitman8, I fully understand your argument but you're completely missing my point. 1. We both agree Mahomes needs Hill less than Tua does. So let's not bring that up again. 2. Mahomes is elite without Hill. We agree on that too. 3. Hill was a major part of the KC offense. Again, 4 years 1000+ yards. Doesn't matter if he wasn't AS important there as he is here. He was a major part. 4. ANY elite WR replacing a non-elite WR should improve QB stats right? Point #4 is what you've been making. So for a WR that is a major part of the offense, Mahomes' play should have been elevated. It's totally irrelevant if he's still elite without him. Mahomes' play should have been elevated, but it wasn't. Point here is you have a completely inconsistent view w.r.t. Hill because you are vastly devaluing Tua's contribution. What we're seeing is Tua is making Hill elite to an even greater degree than Mahomes did. It's not true that an elite WR is always an elite WR. Just look at Moss' time in Oakland. Before and after that stint he's elite, but not there. Your view of Tua needs to change to have a consistent view of Hill. Tua is absolutely essential to making this offense elite. Bridgewater was not a practice squad QB. Career-wise he's a slightly above average QB after over 2000 passing attempts, and he posted 99.1, 92.1 and 94.9 passer ratings with over 1200 attempts in the 3 years prior to joining the Dolphins. Furthermore, he had 79 total attempts in McDaniel's offense — that's over 2 full games worth of data — and had a below average rating. So yes it's small sample size, but we have over 2 full games worth of data where a slightly above average QB played below average in McDaniel's offense. Tua is essential to making this offense elite.
hitman8 wants to assign as much credit as possible for Tua's elite play in this offense to Hill and McDaniel. He's finally admitted Tua is elite within this system, but he won't go so far and give Tua credit for his elite play lol. That's the issue. You just saw that he thinks a below average QB in Mac Jones would do as well as Tua in our offense because all the credit goes to the surrounding cast, not Tua. That's ridiculous! So if his argument is that Hill is the reason Tua is elite — because all Tua is doing is throwing to wide open receivers, which also isn't true — then he has the problem that Hill is performing better with Tua than with Mahomes, i.e., Hill (an elite WR) couldn't elevate Mahomes' play. He simply has an inconsistent view of Hill. Only way out of this is to admit that Tua is essential to making Hill play this well, i.e., Tua is not replaceable with most other starting QBs in McDaniel's system even with Hill. But he can't go there or his entire world view collapses lol.
You don't get to use Bridgwater as a valid point of comparison. Bridgwater never played a single game from start to finish. He never managed to stay healthy enough to implement a game plan made for him and not Tua, and it is also very small sample size. Regarding Hill not elevating Mahomes, I haven't looked at the numbers but I think mahomes did have slightly better numbers with Hill than without him, although the drop off after Hill is not much because again, Mahomes doesn't need Hill as much as Tua does.
Except for very small sample size, Bridgewater is a valid comparison because many posters claimed he would do as well as Tua, he was a historically slightly above average QB, and we have 79 attempts which is over 2 games worth of data if you go by average number of attempts per game in the NFL (low/mid 30's depending on year). There is no other issue with this comparison other than small sample size — remember we're not talking about minor differences here, in which case sure the other stuff might matter. We're talking about the claim Tua is replaceable with an average QB. At the very least you shouldn't have seen such a massive fall-off in production. Yes a slight bit: 105.8 passer rating with Hill and 104.0 without him. That's hardly what you expect from an elite WR replacing a non-elite one that has over 1000 yards per season, i.e., a major part of the offense. For comparison, Brady's passer rating increased by almost 30 points the first year he had Moss, even if that wasn't sustained afterwards.
lol.. it's having an effect dude. Remember the massive amount of goalpost moving last year? Mostly gone now because of the constant pushback I and others gave anti-Tua posters. And with each defense against completely unjustifiable claims like Tua is replaceable with an average or even below average QB you'll see these arguments slowly dissipate too, assuming Tua keeps playing well. So sit back and enjoy lol (or not).
Again, looking at numbers without context to fit your narrative. Why don't you pay attention to the fact that the 1 game Bridgewater played the most snaps in (against Cincy) he played better than Tua in that game. Tua was playing terrible against Cincy, and Bridgewater came in and played better than him, then the next game he played in he got injured. So you are comparing that small sample size in a game where he played better than Tua (in that game) against Tua's complete body of work under mcdaniel over a full season. Again, not a valid comparison. And regarding Mahomes you admit Mahomes had better numbers with Hill than without him. It's not much because Mahome as I've said repeatedly has a skill set that does not depend on Hill to be elite. Tua on the other hand does depend very much on Hill to be elite.
What you said is factually false. The 1 game Bridgewater played the most snaps was against Minnesota: 34 passing attempts in that game. He posted a 93.3 rating against a defense that gave up a 91.6 rating, so average, not elite. 1.8 passer rating point improvement is not what an elite WR is expected to do when he has 1000+ yards receiving 4 out of 6 years and is such a deep threat that defenses specifically game plan against him. It's what someone who has almost no influence on the game might be expected to do. Either way, my Moss example shows that elite WRs don't just make QBs elite (the Oakland case), which means you have to acknowledge that the QB is essential in producing the elite stats. Tua is essential for this offense to produce at this high level.
Look at what Flores achieved as HC. - Fielded the worst OL in Dolphin’s history in year 3 of his rebuild. - Chased away Minkah FitzPatrick, who has gone on to be a perennial All-Pro on a HoF track for another team. - chose to have 2 co-offensive co-ordinators which went as well as predicted. - Got rid of a lot of assistant coaches without bringing in better replacements. - Made Tua a check down RPO QB when his successor has him throwing the ball downfield better than any other QB in the league. Flores’ performance as a HC justified Grier’s decision to let him go. He’s a very good DC who got promoted into a job he wasn’t capable of handling.
People can argue until they are blue about how good Tua is or what QB Flores wanted but you can't get the minimum out of your QB and he did. Horrendously bad development.
