Tua..

Anybody can do that
It's the weapons
Guys are running wide open
He still makes rookie mistakes and throws into quadruple coverage too often
He can't throw off platform
He can't make plays off script
He can't throw deep
He can't throw outside the numbers

and.....

He only throws to a spot......

 

With Tua you're seeing the raw talent he had coming out of college buffed into a diamond of productivity and skill. Whereas with Herbert, who was much more experienced out of college, his ceiling is limited because it was already high. Herbert is definitely capable of winning a Superbowl with better players around him.

Tua is only going to get better and we can thank the maker Flores tenure was so short.

 

That sounds more like another coach statement who wanted the QB to go through progressions instead of just hitting the open man.

 

Liked a few throw aways, stay healthy!
Great game. Wow! And for the D to hold off on blitzing until pay day.

 

but, does he make the receivers better? Marino made the receivers better. I believe Mahomes does too.

 

all of the Dolphins QB's did it.

 

Not sure anyone on here has said Allen is elite.

 

Very valid point. I was thinking how much different Tua is today then he was under Flores. Thankfully Flores was let go. Tua seems like a totally different person and football player.

 

Leaving aside the "eye test", from a pure statistical perspective Hill's performance didn't decrease with Tua after playing with Mahomes. Y/R is actually slightly higher, Y/game is higher, catch% is slightly higher, but TD's are slightly less.

So if Mahomes made his receivers better, Tua does too if you just look at production. The caveat being that with Tua this only occurred with McDaniel+Hill+Waddle. Even if Tua becomes an elite QB production-wise, I wouldn't argue that talent-wise he's at Mahomes' level, i.e., I think Mahomes would succeed at a high level in many different environments, while Tua might do so only if things are just right.

 

I'm not talking about the super elite WR, I'm talking about the average Joe WR. Marino had Duper and Clayton and then made a bunch of other guys that were average look like superstars.

Only talking Mahomes, not comparing him to Tua in any way.

 

You can tell the QBs who make their receivers better by watching the routes their receivers run. Peyton Manning spread the ball around so much that his receivers ran every route as if they were going to be targeted and he would find the best guy consistently. Kurt Warner's receivers did this too. It's human nature to give a little less effort when you're not expecting the ball. I remember watching Randy Moss run routes with his mouthpiece in his hand when he knew he wasn't going to be the likely target.

One of the understated things about Sunday's game was how Tua fed Ingold, Smythe, Berrios, and Cracraft. If he does that, he'll be considered a QB who makes his guys better and it'll absolutely make WR1a and WR1b better than they already are. If he targets 7 or 8 receivers with 3-5 passes per game, this offense will be next level.

 

I don't believe any player makes another better. He may make their job easier by being accurate but he doesn't make them better receivers.

 

100%

 

Tua is lying. He only throws to a predetermined spot. Trent said so.

 

Apparently.... I'm shocked. SHOCKED I TELL YOU!!!

 

So if Tyreek had just a good a year with Tua, then Tua also makes his receivers better?

 

Tyreek has been elite and winning Super Bowls far before he came to the Dolphins. Hell, he made Alex Smith elite for a season. If you think Tua made Tyreek, then you are lying to yourself.

 

Try to follow simple logic. If (as you say) Mahomes make receivers better and Tyreek was no better with Tua than Mahomes..... then logically...... (if she weighs the same as a duck, she is made of wood, and therefore...... a witch!!)

Lets do some algebra

Base Tyreek + Mahomes boost = Base Tyreek + Tua Boost

Subtract Base Tyreek from both sides
Mahomes Boost = Tua Boost

Clear?

 

And some guys just have human cheat codes like Hill and Waddle to throw to.

 

Forget Tyreek. I don't believe Mahomes made him. He's not a good example. Tyreek is elite with any decent QB, including guys like Alex Smith. LOL. He's a generationally elite WR.

 

This convo has taken an interesting turn. I had to remind myself that Tua threw for 250 yards to players NOT named Tyreek Hill on Sunday. That would be a great day for Dolphins QBs in years past. If Tua wasn't a difference maker, Skylar and Teddy Bridgewater would have put up gonzo numbers when they had the chance to throw to the same receivers. Instead of debating whether we have one or two elite players between them, I have something to add for your consideration:

 

I don’t mean to centre you out specifically, as I’ve often seen people express this sentiment towards Herbert…. But I really don’t understand this take.

Khalil Mack
Joey Bosa
JC Jackson
Darwin James
Rashawn Slater
Corey Linsley
Austin Ekeler (Best pure receiving back in game)
Keenan Allen (Arguably best pure route runner)
Mike Williams

I mean Chargers aren’t perfect. But good quarterbacks have won with way less around them. Are you saying Herbert could only compete if he had hands down the greatest defense in the league… Like he is Trent Dilfer level? Why shouldn’t he be expected to win right now?

 

LOL....... oops example that doesn't fit the narrative..... forget it.....

 

Fans will love this one.

Guys says Mac Jones is better then Tua.

 

Chargers coaching seems to be real bad. Brandon Staley I think had to go after last season, but they've had so much turnover they didn't want to do it. Like all they had to do was run the ball last season in the playoffs in the 2nd half to win, and they did anything but. Basic stuff. Then the first game this season, you have two very boneheaded plays from JC Jackson that lost them the game.

 

What if I told you there are elite WRs that make QBs better, and elite QBs that make WRs better? You have the narrative here. Things aren't so black and white as you want them to be. It's not either or. Is your mind blown?

 

Remember Tannehill was elite all the needed was 21 other great players around him.

 

Why did some WR's have their best seasons with Marino when coming from other teams?

 

A bit of perspective for people who doubt Tua. Here is an image that superimposes two frames of one of the throws to Hill. The base frame is where Tyreek was when Tua began his throwing motion. That is the bottom circle. The top circle is where Tyreek was when he caught the ball. Tua is throwing to air, anticipating where the fastest guy in the league is going to be. That is incredibly difficult.



Most QBs cannot do that with any consistency or anywhere near the accuracy. How accurate???

It hits him right in the hands in stride. This is video game stuff.

 

We are talking about ONE receiver and TWO QBs in consecutive seasons. YOU claimed Mahomes makes receivers better.... oh, but not Tyreek, just the other guys..... LOL.

 

Its not surprising that Tyreek who was made by Mahomes and would be useless with noodle arm Tuna is now just that good and would make anyone look good so of course Tuba is having success.

 

Does it seriously bother you that much.???

 

YOU are talking about one receiver. I quoted a post agreeing that Mahomes and Marino makes receivers better. I agreed to that. QBs can make receivers better.

Do you think Alex Smith made Tyreek Hill? If not, then you agree with me. It can go both ways.

 

I feel they lack overall explosiveness at their playmaker positions. That leads to overall longer drives and results in more punts and turnovers rather than points. He's capable of winning with what he has, just that it is much more difficult. Defensively they are good but got exposed by a great offense. First game, we'll see if they are as good on paper as they seem to be as we progress

 

I already stated that I don't think QBs make receivers better. That's your theory that you only apply when it fits your narrative. You're the guy who was sure that Hill would be WORSE with Tua..... How'd that work out? The reason that you have to make so many convoluted arguments is because you don't apply logical arguments consistently. You vary them to fit your narrative....

 

But wasn't Grier an idiot for drafting an undersized slot receiver and desperately trading and paying Hill?

 

1. Link where I said that?
2. He was worse because Tua didn't play a full season. So his numbers with Tua was worse than his numbers with Mahomes.
3. Oh cool. So we both agree receivers can make QBs. Glad we are on the same page for once.

 

Umm...

 

I was thinking about something a few days ago while on a run: Is Tyreek the best WR in the history of the Miami Dolphins? I really think that the answer is "yes." Undoubtedly, you could say that generational talent is certainly going to make anyone throwing him the ball better - Mahomes included.

Do I think that Tua would be worse without Hill? Absolutely. Do I think Mahomes is worse without Hill? Sure. I think that ultimately it was proven that Mahomes was still elite even without Hill which was in line with my thinking.

Really, the question boils down to how much of a drop-off you think that there would be in a hypothetical universe without Hill? Do you think that the drop-off is so severe that you think that Tua is fool's gold?

This week affords us a unique opportunity to quantifiably evaluate just how much Tyreek is lifting Tua. We are 2.5 favorites this week versus the Patriots. If Tyreek were out for Sunday's game, do you think that the Patriots should be favored?

I could certainly tell you that if you told me Hill would not be playing that I would not be despondent and think that there is no hope to win the game. Honestly, I would still bet the Dolphins.

That being said, whenever Teddy Bridgewater entered, I felt entirely different about the prospects of winning a game, and my sentiments were magnified Skylar Thompson entered a game.