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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Naw, I've seen his arm enough it's not like we've never tried deep throws. Plus I saw him in college. There was a chart once to compare his arm strength to other top QBs coming out and he was ranked poorly. It's pretty obvious when you watch him throw its not accurate. Even (yes I'm going there) Desean Watson can play a wide open game with a weak OL. Aaron Rodgers certainly still shows he's a boss with no OL.

    Just cause you want Tua to be the long-term answer doesn't mean he will. But provided he can stay healthy we may have no other option because as you noted there are too many holes and this team needs to be rebuilt from the interior out to the LBs then QB. SO therefor, I guess your boy Tua will have time to prove that he is more than an average dink n dunk system QB no matter what weapons he has or protection. All of those things will help mask his arm strength, he'll still be an avg QB wasting any future talent at other position like WR. But we dont really need to worry about drafting receivers for a few years and not cause we're good there because it's not a position that changes the game every single down (usually)

    Dolphins need an OL OL OL, ad-nauseum. Grier apparently cant scout NFL caliber ones and then draft them. Maybe these dingbats should leave the scouting up to other(s) this time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
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  2. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    So many things to respond to…

    Ok first off, Tua isn’t “my boy”. If you go back pre-2020 draft, you’ll find NUMEROUS posts of mine citing the number of holes in offense and I specifically stated time and time again to fix those positions…fill those holes before drafting a quarterback. I used the analogy of “build the race car first, then get your driver”. I often illustrated how fortunate Marino was when he was drafted by the Dolphins. Miami had just been to the Super Bowl and the Dolphins were fortunate enough to land their “driver” for their race car. Ok, now that that’s out of the way…

    Now as I’ve said many times before, “elite quarterbacks” are RARE …hence the title elite. They don’t grow on trees and they’re not available in every Dollar General. There are 32 teams in the NFL and only a handful of them are at that elite caliber. So in absence of having an elite quarterback, the SMART teams that don’t have one do it the old fashioned way…they build a complete team. I frequently use the Titans as the perfect example. All of their pieces were set but, Mariotta wasn’t producing. In comes Tannehill. Suddenly, the final piece of their puzzle was in place and the Titans haven’t looked back.

    With the Dolphins, this organization isn’t even trying to make up for the shortcomings it has. Has it tried to shore up the receiving corps? Debatable. Personally I feel the only reliable decent receivers we have are a slot receiver and a TE. The team has done nothing for the offensive line. It has been historically bad for at least 10-15 years. We go through a running back carousel that produces no effective running game. Take all of that and toss in a rookie quarterback, of course he’s not going to look “great”. Tagovailoa is doing what he can with what he’s got and with the poor offense that’s being called.

    If you don’t even make an effort…if you don’t even give a quarterback what he needs for a fighting chance, and you have yiur head stuck in the sand with “quarterback quarterback quarterback”, and are constantly making changes at that position instead of building the complete team, then mediocrity will be the result…and Miami’s been mediocre since the retirement of Shula in 95
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah I don't understand this insistence that Tua is incredibly accurate. I don't see that. I see there's that are routinely not in the right place, especially for YAC. He was incredibly accurate in college because he had BEASTS at running back, and he first round draft pick receivers who were routinely yards behind defenders.
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
    Lol
    Thanks for the laughs
    Tua is not accurate? Ha ha ha
     
  5. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    A479DD73-A40F-47EA-8C94-BC7C18BDFF2E.jpeg
     

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  6. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Until he can play a full 17 game season, he is very much part of the problem.
     
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  7. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    I think it's cause the dink n' dunk offensive scheme affords him a better overall completion percentage. But of course, sometimes stats are deceptive. E.g. you put Tua in a different offensive scheme, open the playbook more, stretch the field more, all Tua's #s go down dramatically (or up when counting turnovers.) Beyond 10 yards I've only rarely seen him be anymore accurate than Brisett. And a good portion of those were more phenomenal catches than throws. So yeah, we're on the same page there.

    To me, having Tua is like having young Pennington. He can be serviceable for us for a bit while we rebuild. But as we are rebuilding we should not do it in order for the offense to work for Tua. In fact, that's part of the problem. The legit upgrade i want is not a QB you have to build the offense around/neither the play-calling/scheme, but a QB that can run any offense around him.

    Grier and the 'Phins just keep trying to jam that square peg in that round hole. Awh well we're screwed as long as we allow this butt barnacle to stick. We'll just have to start hoping we get lucky in the draft. But if we get lucky, it'll make Grier look good. Kind of like Tua's inflated completion %.

    That's some Catch-22 huh, we need to breathe fresh talent into this team, yet if Grier 'looks good' it's probably bad for us in the long run. *Facepalm*
     
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  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Statistically, starting QB's have missed on average about 2.5 games per 16 game season (~80 games missed for the entire league), which translates to about a 84% availability rate. Tua's availability since his first game started is 16/21 = 76%. If he can start/play in all remaining games this season that jumps to 23/28 = 82% so right in line with the NFL average. So I'd wait a bit before pouncing too hard on him being too injury prone. It's a very small sample size right now. But obviously if his availability is too low that's a problem.
     
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  9. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Making the offense work for Tua means putting better talent around him which isn't something that will backfire if they move on to a different QB.

    And they may keep Grier regardless of how the season goes so there isn't any reason to not hope the teams looks good the rest of the way.
     
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  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I will be controversial, as long as at least Waddle and Gesicki are healthy the only thing needed to make the offense work for Tua is to make the line, not complete ****.

    And maybe Gaskin hitting the GOD DAMN HOLE!!!!!!!!
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I don't think that's controversial, or at least it shouldn't be, though I'd add we need a new RB. Gaskin isn't going to cut it. Dolphins are 2nd worst in rushing Y/A and that's in large part due to no talent at RB. So IF Tua is the QB you build around, then yeah I'd prioritize OL and RB, not WR. Question is whether Tua is the QB you want, and for me a simple threshold is ending with a 95+ rating this year.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I believe that until the line isn't by far the worst pass blocking in the league it will be hard to see him hit 95+ as I think it would any quarterback except maybe Russell Wilson who I think is the best quarterback I have seen navigate instant pressure.

    IMO a Gaskin type runningback would be fine as long as they can hit the hole. There are just to many times there is a hole there and he misses it. I am still of the type who think RBs are not a high priority since they get hurt so often. Plus as long as they hit the hole, a not terrible line will mitigate.

    I would love a good RB as well.

    Though I do agree that every QB in the NFL would benefit with having good offensive line and runningbacks.
     
  13. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Many QBs, not just Wilson, I think could do that. The repeated reference to Herbert doing that last year behind a really bad OL is an example of how we need to see some evidence our QB can overcome such adversity. Personally, I think Tua will end with 95+ this year.
     
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  14. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    The threshold is whether they want trade for Watson. If not then there is no other move that is going to make sense over giving Tua another year.
     
  15. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Aaron Rogers, though he doesn't fit the youth aspect that Grier loves.

    There was noise coming out of Seattle as well. I wouldn't discount anything if they move on from Carroll.

    Outside of them and Watson, it's a roll of the dice with no clear upgrade in either the draft or FA. I think it's worth building the team more over making a rash move to a new QB this offseason. If Tua doesn't pan out next year, we have a pair of 2023 firsts to work with and a hopefully better situation for a rookie QB to walk into.
     
  16. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Those were two options that seemed like would be there before the season started but unless they go on a serious run its hard to think they are a just QB away from a title which is what they would need to be to get Rodgers or Wilson
     
  17. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Anyone watch Trevor Lawrence play? Yikes.
     
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  18. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Nope, I watched Tennessee and Tannehill:up:
     
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  19. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    nah, i was watching herbert continue his jekyll and hyde season this year. He’s either been straight cheeks or really good lol.
     
  20. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Nah, I watched Russell Wilson put up a donut in Green Bay. Damn finger injury....His throws were a bit off all day.
     
  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I get where you are going with that statement but...it's not really a fair statement, is it?

    Tua Tagovailoa
    Joe Burrow
    Josh Lucas
    Baker Mayfield
    Kyler Murray

    All young quarterbacks that have or are missing games due to injury...although Murray's is due to his style of running quarterback play but the first 3 are all on TERRIBLE teams.
     
  22. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Problem is we drafted one of those guys at #5 coming off a season ending injury with a long track record of injuries. While the injuries in Miami have been Miami, there’s been 3-4 different injuries that have caused him to miss time. Durability was the concern going into the draft and still is for me.
     
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  23. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    If Burrow and Lucas also haven’t had injuries that caused them to miss games, that would strengthen your argument but as they too are/were out as rookie quarterbacks with injuries sustained at the NFL level, in my mind, Tua’s injuries are no different.

    Instead of everyone debating whether or not Tagovailoa is the quarterback of the future for the Dolphins, the argument should be WHAT holes/positions need to be filled to make Tua successful. Fill those holes…if Tagovailoa shines, he shines. If he doesn’t, then the Aston Martin has been built for the next “driver” (quarterback) to take over and out the pedal to the metal.

    This is the only LOGICAL step/process to follow. Look at Tennessee. They drafted Mariotta. Horrible team. Mariotta struggled. Tennessee then went out and bolstered their offensive line and got a powerhouse running back in Henry. Mariotta STILL didn’t shine. Tennessee picked up Tannehill and since then, they have gone pedal to the metal, going to the AFC championship, going 11-5 last season and currently the number 1 seed in the AFC this year. We can debate Tannehill all day long but the point is they have built up an offensive powerhouse that’s consistently rolled over opponents. This is what Miami needs to do…build the offensive powerhouse and quit trying to catch lightening in a bottle.
     
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  24. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    More than saying we need better OL players, we seriously need better coaching. They need to hire a veteran OL coach. This is essential. A lot of this falls on Flo. He has to be able to accept that he needs a good veteran OL coach.
     
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  25. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about team building. Priority number 1 has to be this OL. That will help Tua stay more healthy.

    My argument has nothing to do with Tua in comparison to really anyone other than who else was available at #5. I’m not even saying QB’s don’t/shouldn’t get injured. The problem is Tua has a long history of not being able to stay healthy, we overlooked that and he continues to have issues staying healthy. If it were one fluke injury, I couldn’t understand but he’s brittle.
     
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  26. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    The Burrow injury was a freak injury. Burrow doesn't have the injury history Tia has, and either way Burrow was not available at #5 when we picked Tua over Herbert. Like it or not the comparison will always be between Tua and Herbert, and so far it looks like we made a terrible decision.

    I do agree that we should build the team, especially the Oline, however that does not excuse the fact that we had lightning in a bottle in Herbert, and we simply dropped the bottle. Those types of truly elite QBs don't come around very often. We missed our opportunity.
     
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  27. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Hindsight is always 20/20 in the draft...could'a, should'a, would'a. I know...everybody here knows how high you are on Herbert. Got it. Whenever Tua is discussed, you always tend to revert back to Herbert. You're playing hindsight...but what about foresight?

    This is just ONE of many sports writers who had Tua that high on their draft boards, even with his injury history. At least, according this this particular author's projection, we didn't trade up to get Tua. Many posters HERE who do their own research were wanting Tagovailoa. I actually wasn't one of them. I didn't want a quarterback...not yet. But to use hindsight as justification when there have been so many who have gotten it WRONG in the draft is just a strawman argument. Hell, none of the weak 1st 9 quarterback teams of the 2017 draft ever thought of of this kid named Mahomes.

    See what I'm getting at?
     
  28. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Herbert had three good games this year.
     
  29. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is we get it wrong too damn often. You, I and many others didn't want Tua. I said before the draft he was too high of an injury risk and his skills and performance were really not that impressive playing with all stars in Alabama. I don't care how many idiot sport writers saw it differently, they were wrong, and I'm sick and tired of the dolphins repeatedly getting it wrong as well.

    I'm with you 100% on the oline and building the rest of the team, but with the lack of judgement we have in the FO I just don't see us getting out of perennial mediocrity until we change leadership and get a GM with sound judgment.
     
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  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Stop being ridiculous. How are you still debating this? Face it, Herbert is leagues above Tua in every way.
     
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  31. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  32. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Herbert is seven spots higher in QB rating.
     
  33. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Do you even watch football?
     
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  34. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    This is a stat that should be mainstream. There is an old adage by receivers that if the ball hits your hands, you should catch it. For the Dolphins, how many of these 27 dropped passes resulted in drives being stopped? In potential touchdowns? In yards lost?

    The Dolphins receiving corps has done little to help Tagovailoa out when he has thrown them the ball
     
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  35. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Yes I watched Herbert lose at home to the 3-5 Vikings this weekend and do absolutely nothing.
     
  36. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I remember drops by Waddle and Parker killing two drives against New England alone.
     
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  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That Waddle one was a tough catch but still should have been made. That might have been a touchdown if he caught it or a little better throw.
     
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  38. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, he was crossing full stride and the ball was half a second late. But he made up for it shortly after the drop.
     
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  39. Daytona Fin

    Daytona Fin Active Member

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  40. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sad when you consider that this was supposed to be the strength of our team. So much underperformance everywhere the first 8 games. Let’s hope the last 7 are like the last 2.
     
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