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Miami vs Atlanta - Week 6 - Game Day Thread

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Oct 24, 2021.

  1. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with it is that you don't spend a top 5 pick on just a quality starter, and if we had a true elite QB we wouldn't have to be perfect with every other part of the team. Tua is only good enough to win a Superbowl if you surround him with an all star team.
     
  2. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Well, you are dependent on building a good-great offense and defense around them. With less margin for error since they are not elite. That's the most difficult path to a Super Bowl win compared with riding an elite QB.

    Also, there is zero chance Grier could manage a team build like that. It also looks like Flores couldn't manage to coach one either.
     
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  3. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Kinda like what he had at Alabama
     
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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    He did not at any point show a strong arm in this game. His longest throw was a 22 yarder to a wide open Gesicki, he just had to float it in there. He got by on a few longer throws with anticipation and accuracy, not arm strength or velocity. Against a better secondary with tighter coverages that's not going to cut it.
     
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  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah, and some great QBs had weak arms and won due to anticipation and accuracy. Tua still needs to get better reading defenses and be smarter with some throws, but there's no evidence he can't learn to do that. That's the point. We have to see if he can learn this. You shouldn't just assume he can't. A weak arm on its own isn't a reason to think a QB can't succeed.
     
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  6. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I think you confuse "arm strength" with "pass yards".
     
  7. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I only commented on Tua's longer throws today because cbrad mentioned them. Tua does not have good arm strength and velocity. Never has and never will.
     
  8. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Just makes it a little harder, my only problem with him is durability and he showed today that he can take a big hit with injured ribs.
     
  9. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Watch his touchdown to Ford. Zipped in between a couple of defenders off his back foot.

    Don't give me this nonsense he can't throw with velocity.
     
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  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    If you think that was a demonstration of arm strength, then you have absolutely no idea what arm strength is. Ford was well open on a short pass. There was no arm strength required or shown there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
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  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you're talking about Jay Cutler, his the receiver 70-yards downfield in stride type of arm strength. Tua does not have that and probably never will- you're 100% right. But we didn't draft him for that either.

    If you look at his completions over the past two weeks (and there's been about 70 of them), Tua delivers pin-point accurate footballs that hit receivers in stride and let them make plays after the catch. That's very rare from rookies and it's why Miami coveted him. With that said, Tua has bulked up this offseason and he's getting more velocity on his throws. Not Jay Cutler, break your finger type of velocity if you don't catch it right, not Dan Marino velocity either, but he's putting good zip on the ball into tight windows.

    I mentioned Cutler and Marino for specific reasons- Dan had elite arm strength and the accuracy. Cutler had possibly the best arm strength ever, but often missed receivers since he had basically no touch. Tua has minimal arm strength but he can thread a pass as well as anyone in the league right now. Most teams these days would 'ooh' and 'aah' over a Cutler-like arm, but they covet a passer like Tua since that's what consistently moves the chains.

    I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but Tua can develop better arm strength as his career progresses. Very few quarterbacks become more accurate over time. Tannehill, for instance, completed a high percentage of his throws throughout his career, but he's really dialed in that close accuracy over the past couple of years. Henne is another example- huge arm even today, but never had that perfect touch to thread in passes without launching a bullet.
     
  12. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    The only problem with this mindset is that too many of you who share it seem to think “elite” quarterbacks are a dime a dozen. Those are very rare and if a team is doing nothing but searching for an elite quarterback and not building a TEAM, then those GMs are fools…and so are those who share that vision
     
  13. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    They recently had one for the taking and they uhhh.......passed.
     
  14. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Who said they were a dime a dozen? They are not, but we had the chance at one with Herbert and blew it by picking Tus. And no, no one is saying do nothing but look for the QB, you also need to build a good team around him, but the QB is the most important piece of the puzzle, especially in today's pass happy NFL.
     
  15. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    So you two are crowning Herbert…based on???

    Herbert may turn out to be a great quarterback. Maybe he won’t. Maybe Tua will turn out to be a great quarterback. Maybe he won’t. Too early to tell with either one of them but this much is certain…

    Herbert is on a much better TEAM than Tagovailoa is and if you’re basing your elite evaluation of Herbert based on that fact, then your analysis and appraisal is faulty and illogical at best.

    Swap Tua and Herbert and I guarantee you both teams results would be the same
     
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  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Herbert was on a Terrible team last year, with a terrible oline (worst in the NFL) and he still won rookie of the year. The conversation about who is better between Herbert and Tia is over, I can't believe you're still debating this.
     
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  17. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't mean he can't be a good quarterback. If we were just going off of arm strength and velocity then Heath Shuler, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, JaMarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Brady Quinn and many other colossal busts would be in the hall of fame.
     
  18. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Uhhhhh. Uhh boy…….:.
     
  19. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Regarding Herbert vs. Tua. Right now it's clear Herbert > Tua. That doesn't mean it will end up that way. And let's not crown Herbert some great QB yet either. Statistically he's just a tad above average with a 98.8 rating (average is 95.1). Currently he's ranked 15th by rating though that will probably rise given that the Chargers have an easier schedule coming up than what he's faced so far.

    Joe Burrow on the other hand IS playing at an elite level in year 2. After today his rating will be 108.9 after 212 attempts which says something. Will that continue? We'll see, but right now the star QB of the 2020 draft is Burrow, not Herbert (and I'm well aware we had no chance at Burrow.. just saying Herbert isn't yet "elite").
     
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  20. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Do not talk about the God Herbert like that on this website.
     
  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Tell you what, this is Herbert‘a second season. He started what, week 6…7 last season? If Herbert can lead the Chargers to the Super Bowl this season, mirroring what Marino did his second season in the league, then you have my permission to crown him “elite”. If not, then I don’t want to hear it.

    Games are won based on the number of points put on the board compared to their opponent. Not an individual player’s stats.
     
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  22. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Once again, Marino was drafted by a SB caliber team, Herbert was drafted on a team picking #6 in the draft. Big difference in what they had to work with.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Just looked to verify- Marino was taken 27th overall (meaning we were around the 5th best team the year before). So yeah, we were already a pretty elite team.
     
  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There were only 28 teams in the league at that time. Dolphins went to the SB the year before and lost, so we were 2nd best from that point of view. On the other hand 1982 was a strike shortened season so who was really the best is harder to tell.
     
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  25. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Which reiterates the point I’ve made time and time and time again…build the race car, THEN get the driver
     
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  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Fair point- completely forgot about the expansion teams! As usual, your math saves the day. =)
     
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  27. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah but you keep making the same points regardless of the evidence against it. For example, we never won the SB with Marino. On the other hand Bill Walsh drafted Montana right off the bat in 1979 on a 2-14 team (2nd guy they took). It took 2 years to get enough other pieces and implement his style of play, but they won the SB in 1981. Great example of getting the driver first and building around him.

    Anyway, there's no single way to build a SB winner. Many examples of QBs going to good teams, many examples of bad teams drafting a QB and then building around him, and many examples where it was a mix.
     
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  28. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Why was Flores so mad and swearing at the refs at the end?

    Everything seemed legit on that last Falcons drive. Did I miss something ?
     
  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I didn't spot any bad calls either- maybe Pitts pushed off? He did that a few times earlier in the game to Howard and got away with it.
     
  30. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    There was a flag that was picked up on the last drive.
     
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  31. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I wanted to chime in on the Tua arm strength chatter here earlier. I have to agree when it comes to Tua's arm strength; I just don't think it's there like you see with other top QB prospects. His key attribute is his accuracy really. Alot of his deep downfield passes though see to "float" too much though. However they're on target still which to me is key. So I don't think he's got top end arm strength either, but I also don't think that's hugely important for the offensive scheme they're asking him to run which is also what he excels at. The short passing, RPO game is excellent for him. He's got enough zip in that arm to throw accurate passes when and where they need to be.

    Rather than talking about accuracy or strength though; I like to just look at arm talent in general. From watching the last two games from Tua I saw alot to like. Yeah, maybe he doesn't have the rocket arm like Tannehill had, and like others have but he's throwing really accurate passes right now on all types of routes and the ball is on time, on target. Some of the things we've seen the last two games don't show up in the arm strength category. Like the play against Jacksonville where he positioned his feet in a way to fool the defender into thinking one thing, then threw it past him with what seemed like an interesting arm angle. We saw it again yesterday with an excellent cross body throw that looked like a bit of a floater; won't lie when it left his hand I thought it was destined to be picked, but instead it's deadly accurate right into his targets hands. That kind of arm talent is what is more important to me; it's not all arm either, but more body control I guess. I think he's progressing nicely at this point. Remember it's only been what, 12 or 13 starts? I've seen enough in the last two games to me me go.. hmm maybe there is something here in the right offense. Can he do the things the Packers as Rodgers, or other "strong arm" QB's to do? Probably not with comparable results. Can he excel in the right offensive system though? Absolutely I think. To me, his biggest issues right now are decision making. Those INT's yesterday and against JAx are an example of what you don't want to see. Clean that up and maybe we're trending the right way. I do keep in mind though it was Jacksonville and Atlant's defense.

    What I do like though is how he handled the pocket; in particular yesterday. I like how he's managing the game too; reading his progressions and checking it down if needed knowing his OL isn't going to give him all the time in the world. I like his resilience. Many rookies would crumble after two INT's like that one, but not Tua yesterday. Came back out there and kept firing. A 4TD performance is nothing to scoff at IMO; but the 2 INT's likely cost us the game. I know; he left the field with a lead. However if he didn't throw those two INT's that lead likely was bigger, and we likely don't lose the game. But with our D currently... who knows. :lol:

    The thing I like the most though is this... last year, and even week 1 I felt he constantly had that "deer in the headlights" look about him when things were breaking down around him. I haven't seen that the last two weeks. He looks alot more calm, and more poised back there. He seems to be sensing pressure and stepping up, or out of the pocket and scrambling or checking down when needed where before I always felt like he just "froze". That is an encouraging sign to me. Of course, how much of that was due to Atlanta and Jacksonville remains to be seen as the weeks progress.

    Long story short does he have that prototypical strong arm? No. But that's not who he is or ever was. He has enough arm talent though to have a good NFL career IMO. Accurate, enough zip when needed, nice touch, nice use of his body and feet to make difficult or tricky throws. He's got to clean up the decision making though. Mistakes happen, defenders make good plays once in a while, INT's happen sometimes that you can "live with", but the poor decisions though are the ones that drive you mad like the Jacksonville INT, and the endzone one yesterday. I missed the second INT to be honest. Clean those up, get Parker and Fuller back and I'm curious to see. So yes while we played Jax and Atl with weak defenses, we also didn't have our best talent at WR on the field; not that they're elite by any means, but if you think the WR's that played yesterday have more talent than Parker and Fuller do then I'm not sure what to tell you. Parker and Fuller aren't Rice or Owens by any means, but they're certainly better than Williams, Wilson, Ford, Hollins.

    Personally for me, I'm seeing growth. I was never high on Tua because of the elite talent he had around him at Alabama that you just dont get in the NFL; but I'm seeing some growth there and I think he deserves more than a handful of starts before his fate here is decided. He's got alot of room to improve and it appears he is so far

    As for Watson... if his legal troubles didn't exist I'd swap him for Tua in a second. With the current Watson situation though; I'm not sure I'd cut ties with Tua yet for a QB that likely won't play anytime soon. It just doesn't help the current team and sends the wrong message IMO.
     
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  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    And there's no reason to think he can't learn not to make those boneheaded errors. As many of us predicted last year his decision making would be much better this year, and it's not hard to predict he'll (mostly) get rid of those boneheaded errors by next year.

    As far as doing this against Jacksonville and Atlanta, the Bills are up next with the best pass defense in the NFL, allowing opposing QB's an unbelievably low 62.1 passer rating (highest single rating by an opponent this year was 83.9 when the league average is 95). If Tua plays well against the Bills, Tua detractors need to adjust their expectations upwards from "game manager" to at least "above average".
     
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