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X Extension DONE!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Jun 5, 2021.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  2. patcobb

    patcobb Active Member

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    I don't think so. He is paid pretty well and has only played in like half of his games so far. If he has another healthy season I think its fair to consider maybe next off season
     
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  3. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Maybe if he has another season or two that is playing up to his potential and beyond. Maybe then talk a deal there then. Just saying.
     
  4. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Serious question. Is Xavien Howard the best CB in the history of the franchise?
     
  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Unpopular opinion.

    He is worth an extra $2 to $3 million a year. X. Howard is worth more than a high priced slot cornerback.
     
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  6. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Xavien Howard earned his price tag.
     
  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I'd have Madison and Surtain above him personally. Give X another 4-5 years and he could challenge though.
     
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  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I disagree. He has the interception ability of Madison with the shut down capability of Surtain.
    If X continues to play the way he is, he is going to be a first ballot hall of fame player. If he wasn't on a struggling Dolphin team he would be in the conversation as one of the best players in the NFL.
     
  9. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I guess it depends on what you value. I am going with career totality, and X has a few years yet to get to that point. He's also been somewhat injury prone. If we are talking just the best 2-3 year peaks, you'd have to include dudes like Vincent as well, but X would definitely be in the conversation.
     
  10. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Great player and a great year, but it's kind of a fluke year for him as he stayed healthy and snagged a lot of INTs. If he does close to that in 2021 THEN you look at adding some money. It's a bad precedent to hand out a new deal when a player has over a year left on their current deal (unless you are talking about a rookie contract).

    Also, Madison and Surtain were the best CB combo, but Howard is in the conversation for best Dolphin CB with another great season or two.
     
  11. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    I think NFL players all should negotiate for 2 yr fully guaranteed contracts. Teams don't promise anything more now, they currently hold all the power.
    Tell me I can renegotiate based on performance every other year and sell myself to the highest bidder in the bargain and I'm balls in, deeep.
    That levels the playing field as far as money and commitment on both sides. Then it's about how do you attract and keep the top talent? By having the best culture. Money is = by competition means where do I WANT to be for a player.
    All that besides, you negotiated the contract you got and the performance on the field is your part of the deal. You didn't negotiate based on the possibility of being average and only giving it the bare minimum. If you did, eff off.
    I mean you can ask and all, but you told me you were all in for this deal when you signed it. If I keep my half what's your beef?
     
  12. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly where I’m at. He’s getting paid pretty darn good for playing 33 games over 3 years. Another healthy season at the level he played at last year, then give him and extension and more money.
     
  13. plc001

    plc001 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They need to rework player contracts. Nfl teams shouldnt have the ability to terminate contracts without cause and players should be held to the terms of the contract signed. If these things were true, both players and teams would be more mindful about the contracts they sign.

    It’s strange to me that contracts are signed with neither party fully expecting the terms of that contract to be upheld. Seems to foster a mistrust between team and player.
     
  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think NFL players should be able to choose their first team with an option to bypass the draft.
     
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  15. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    NFLPA is a fairly weak organization, especially when compared to the MLB and NBA.
     
  16. plc001

    plc001 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No this would result in a college-like loading of talent. It’s the reason I hate college football. I don’t know how teams outside the Alabama’s even have fans.
     
  17. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I don't care if he's the greatest corner to ever play the game, you don't get an extension two years into a new contract. If he plays hardball, then trade him away.
     
  18. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm curious as to how the agents get paid. Do they take their commission on the total contract amount up front or do they get paid as the player gets paid. If its the former, I think that says a lot about how we got to where we're at.
     
  19. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Usually 3% of the deal when it's done.
     
  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's the counter-argument and I get it, but to me the draft is just wrong on so many levels. Imagine if you went to college, studied for four years and graduated at the top of your class, only to be told, "Congrats, you get to work in Cleveland at ABC Corp. It may be the worst company in your field, but move your entire family there anyway and hopefully you'll make the best of it!"

    I agree that there has to be some balance, but at the same time I think organizations owe the players a chance to be where they want to be. For example, Russell Wilson got slaughtered in the last Super Bowl after absolutely BEGGING for an offensive line for multiple seasons. Maybe it's the coaching, or the front office, or maybe they're just drafting the wrong players...but that shouldn't be Russel Wilson's problem. I just don't like how he can be locked into a contract and forbidden to talk to other teams, yet the team can cut or trade any player at any time without consequences.

    I think it should be standard for all players to have an opt-out clause if they aren't happy. I mean, three of the top five or six QB's in the league don't want to play for their teams anymore (Wilson, Rodgers, Watson)...but they're powerless to do anything about it. Is that fair to waste their talent in their prime?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  21. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Shout out to Kyle Crabbs and the Locked on Dolphins Podcast, whose episode today pointed out this list. He has an episode breaking this down today: https://open.spotify.com/show/1h5AvikBOVYhqtI7zuuUU7 (also on Apple an other podcast sites).


    Next Gen Stats rate Howard the #1 coverage defender for 2020:

    https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-s...ers-in-2020-49ers-lb-fred-warner-crashes-db-h

    Here's how they came up with this list:

    "...some important notes about the parameters for this exercise: We set a minimum of 300 coverage snaps and 40 targets to achieve legitimate volume among qualifiers. Players also had to finish with a catch rate allowed that was below expectation, a negative targeted expected points added (a metric used to quantify how much an individual player impacted an opponents' scoring potential), a tight window percentage of at least 20 percent (15 percent for linebackers -- more on that later) -- and a maximum passer rating allowed of 80. These requirements pared down the candidates to only those with the most well-rounded production.

    Using a combination of those metrics -- along with target rate, average separation and ballhawk rate as supplementary metrics (but most importantly, targeted EPA) -- we dove into the Next Gen Stats to identify the players who were the best in coverage in 2020."


    And here's the breakdown on Howard:

    "Miami Dolphins · CB
    Passer rating allowed: 46.5

    Catch rate allowed below expectation: -6.8%

    Tight window pct: 21.6%

    Target rate: 18.2%

    Average separation: 2.8 yards

    Targeted expected points added: -34.5 (best in NFL)


    It should come as no surprise that the league leader in interceptions (10) landed atop this list. Howard was effective in all areas and might have received a boost from Miami's decision to move him off the line of scrimmage last season. After spending nearly 70 percent of his coverage snaps in press coverage in 2019, Howard pressed opposing receivers just 32.2 percent of the time in 2020, and it produced excellent results. Only Marcus Peters was more effective in press coverage last season, with Howard finishing second to the Ravens CB (-20.6) in targeted EPA on such throws at -16. Some teams opted to challenge Howard deep and learned that was also a bad decision. He recorded four interceptions on deep targets, the most in the NFL in 2020, and finished with a targeted EPA of -17.4 on such targets, the lowest rate in the league. These numbers fall in line with a demonstrated history of success downfield, too. Howard hasn't allowed a deep passing touchdown as the nearest defender since 2017, intercepting seven passes on deep targets and allowing a grand total of just four receptions for 186 yards on 35 deep targets since the start of the 2018 season. Howard Island might not be a thing yet, but the information above suggests he was worthy of the nickname in 2020."
     
  22. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    It's not fair for them and their combined $430 million contracts. I remember when the gun was pointed at their head when they signed them.

    Just a bad take all around as usual by you.
     
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  23. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    It's getting a bit off topic, however, I think you're essentially looking at this incorrectly when you consider it as employees and individual companies/teams who are all competing against one another. That's true at a basic level, but there's another dimension to this that has to be factored in. The bigger entity here is the league itself, and ultimately, all players and franchises are part of one big company, the NFL. Whatever happens with any given player or team has to make sense for the league, and what makes sense for the league is having competitive teams. So the league does what it can to keep the playing field as level as possible by using things like the cap, and the draft.

    When players join the league they need to see it as just that, joining the league with a career in the league. During their career they should expect to be on more than one team, living in more than one city, and to always be proving their value within the league as a whole.

    There will always be better and worse coaches and managers and franchises. Those are the obstacles to be overcome. However, the alternatives, a league with no cap, a league with no draft, will result in something more along the lines of the state of many soccer leagues, where a few elite teams dominate their leagues year in and year out and the chances of change are slim. It's boring.

    What the NFL has been able to build in terms of having a league where teams who are at the bottom have a chance, with good management, of reaching the top and winning it all, is something to be appreciated and enjoyed. It's much better than the alternative. And the draft is a necessary part of it. There are other careers too, where individual choice isn't great.

    None of this is unjust. An individualistic approach to all this will ultimately lead downhill.

    The sitaution around contracts should be tightened up. They should be ironclad. What goes down on paper should be what is honoured and then everyone is operating on solid ground. Players, however, should never have the same ability as GM's. Their jobs are different. The players job is to play. To do the job on the field and to prepare off the field to be able to do it. The GM's job is to move players around. If players can pull the plug then GM's can't do their job. So that should never happen. Instead, players and FO's should be upfront and honest about all this.
     
  24. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    If he's just looking for more guaranteed money (which has run out on this contract), I'm ALL for it. Insurance is a great thing, and I believe he's earned it. If he has another year like, or in the same neighborhood as 2020, then "pay that man his money!"
     
  25. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    There's an argument going around the X's interceptions show that he shouldn't be rated at the top because it means he was targeted more than other CB's. If he were really good, the argument goes, QB's wouldn't throw in his direction.

    It popped up again on Kyle's Locked On Twitter feed, and he responded thusly:

     
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  26. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Poor Phil's tweet didn't age well.

    His argument is that X isn't feared or doesn't cover as tightly as those others, even when the stats prove him completely wrong, he's not taking into account the level of cat and mouse X plays to coax those passes.

    The "PhilJetsFan" shoulda been enough to outright dismiss his take, but LockedOn did their thing.
     
  27. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If that's the case than I think its pretty clear why deals are structured the way they are.
     
  28. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    These were some of the other Tweets recently:





     
  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Remember that the average NFL player's career is less than two years, which could be due to anything from injury to talent level to attitude. I do agree with you that players aren't GMs, but they're not indentured servants either. I can't think of any other career in the United States where employees have zero control over their career track except the big 4 sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey). I feel it's completely unjust.

    The other part though that you mentioned- the "with good management, etc." is completely out of a player's control. We appreciate and enjoy it, sure, but this is each player's livelihood and they've been on this path for 10+ years already. They should have some say in their future and some protections against injury, roster shuffles, etc. I mean, look at the guys we brought in two seasons ago- several are already out of the league after starting in Miami and making a pretty good showing.

    If they're signed for 3 years, they should have a job for 3 years and receive that full pay...that's all I'm saying here. And if they're not getting opportunity in the depth chart, they should have a say in advancing their career elsewhere.
     
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  30. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    They're not indentured servants because they can walk away and they're paid for their time and efforts. That's the key difference there. All industries have their plusses and minuses. The NFL is elite level athletics. Just to have a shot you need to have had a number of things go right for you that are out of your control, and then on top of that you need to have put in a ton of hard work. Then once you're in, if you make it, it's a massively competitive environment. More guys, just like you, are hot on your heels for a job in a league with a limited number of spots. It's a massive opportunity to make a lot of money in a short amount of time, and if most players should only expect to be around a couple of years then they should plan accordingly and save that money. That's their choice though. The point here is that whenever you're in an elite or limited environment it's always going to have that 'strongest survive' aspect to it. Lots of people choose other work just because they don't want that.

    In terms of career control, most people in low paying jobs have just as little control. They're working to pay the bills at the end of the month, they take what work they can get, there will be a risk if they quit, and all they can do is work hard and hope to grow. They have just as little say, if not, even less say, than NFL players. Not least because in the NFL scouts and GMs will always be on the lookout for bargain talent so you at least know someone will glance your way. In low-end work there's no such guarantee.

    I agree about the security in signed contracts and as I mentioned before I'd like to see contracts more iron-clad. However, I disagree that the NFL is unjust, at least, not in this way. The league is a very tough place to be - it's full of hungry, elite athletes, and some incompetent management. Ideally a player's agent will work with them to get them every opportunity possible, but even then, there are only very few possibilities in the first place. How many chances should a player get for it to be just and fair? There are no guarantees of even one. It's why so many parents and coaches encourage players to use their football talents to finish college and get an education. There's a good chance they'll need it. If this is their livelihood then it's an opportunity that most people don't get to make a great start. Even the lowliest player in the league will make more in a single year than I have in various years combined, I just looked this up:

    "The lowest-paid NFL player for the 2019/20 season is none other than Seattle Seahawks’ tight end Tyrone Swoopes. The 25-year old free agent was drafted in 2017 and has been signed and waived nine times from the Seahawks’ practice squad.

    According to Pro Football Reference, Swoopes is the lowest on the list, receiving a paltry salary of just $378,000."

    Those who are in the league need to take advantage of every chance they have, and knowing that it's going to be a short ride, make as much of it as they can. It's a great opportunity and one with no less freedom than many other jobs worked by low-end labourers. They might not find themselves playing for a team with a GM or coach who will make their most of their talents. It's a shame. But that's the reality for most people, I'd say.
     
  31. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I passionately disagree. I believe with all of my heart that for a pro sport to succeed and be fair, the league and teams need to have total control over the athletes as they enter.

    Yes, they're getting paid for what they are doing. And they're getting paid a TON, even making the rookie minimum. But these aren't jobs, in the normal sense. Its a break between school and the rest of their life, that they're going to try to make last as long as they can or want before its over.

    While pro sports aren't of course as serious as government work, the analogy I make is like if they were to enter the FBI, or the IRS, or another government agency. Once you're accepted, then they tell you where you're going to be assigned based on where they need people and what your skill set is. You don't get to say that you want to work in Atlanta if they assign you to Tulsa. You go where they tell you, or you quit. And pro sports are essentially the same. Its one umbrella group, that only functions properly that one way.
     
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  32. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Read the damn contract before you sign it.

    No one can make you play if you don't want to. If you want to play, then you are stuck with the contract you signed.

    Imagine if you signed a contract with a builder for a new house. Half way thru the building process the builder decides he wants more money before he will fulfill the contract, because he is doing such a good job in building your house.

    Would you pay that builder the extra money they want? I doubt it!

    You disagree?

    Will there is that old Russian saying "Toughski ****ski" - LOL

    If you don't see the validity of this comparison, there isn't much point in listening to you about anything, because you are likely to be just as inconsistent in your arguments and conclusions in more vague areas if you don't understand the value of clarity that a contract brings to both parties.
     
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  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The funny part is, I believe there's two members here who went through that exact situation and they both ended up paying more. They made it seem like this is a common problem in that industry.
     
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  34. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    In America, you can ignore a contract at your own legal Peril.

    I've seen enough contractual failures when I was a councilman in a small city in Ohio. The City was well run and we won those contract disputes, some in court, some out of court, but we either had the contract enforced or canceled with compensation, as was written in the contract.
     
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  35. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, Xavien Howard isn't building a house. He's been building multiple communities, so to speak.
     
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  36. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Smooth Segway, also funny - LOL
     
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  37. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I'm just saying. If you're very good at making houses and/or communities, your price is going to go up after you make a certain amount.

    Similarly along those lines, Howard has proven to be, at the very, a proper entry into the argument of who the best cornerback in the NFL is, especially during this past year when he led the league in post Interceptions and Passes Deflected. Him asking for a raise is an expected inevitability.
     
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  38. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The problem is that the team can terminate the contract at anytime. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed. They are by their nature vague when it comes to the future. Teams often ask players to take pay cuts or be fired. Until contracts are guaranteed for both parties, I am not sure it's reasonable to expect someone to play for less than they think their worth. Teams don't like to pay someone more than the team thinks they're worth.
     
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  39. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    So can the player!
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    No, the player can't
     
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