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Deshaun Watson

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rick 1966, Jan 7, 2021.

  1. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    This makes it much harder to trade him and its awful for his ability to market himself in general.

    To believe any kind of conspiracy here you have to come up with someone who really has something to gain and there isn't anyone. You could only really pin it all on the lawyer. Its awful for the Texans, its awful for Watson, and its awful for anyone who might want to trade for him.
     
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  2. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I love Watson as a QB, I was big on him coming out of Clemson but there was no way we were going to make a real move to get him this year. He would have taken all the draft capital we had plus the lions share of the cap room that was available. Once these accusations started no one was going to make a move for him. If that gets cleared up or comes to its conclusion we'll see what happens then.
     
  3. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    I think regardless of how much he has done wrong, if a case does in fact have merit or not... I suspect this is the Texans owner making a point to let "his player" know that he is the boss and Watson won't bully his way out of Houston. It seems very orchestrated and personal the way it came out in terms of timing and method.
     
  4. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Yea **** that... regardless what happens deshaun needs to get out of that place and go to a team that respects people.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2021
  5. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The women are saying it wasn't consensual. Kobe is lucky that his victim chose not to cooperate with the DA and accepted his settlement. They were moving forward with the prosecution based on strong physical evidence and his own testimony and changing story. I'm not going to address this further as it has all been debated here in previous threads.

    As soon as Watson confesses that something sexual happened, it's over for him. It's then he said she said about consent, and it's 1 he vs 20+ women with DMs and messages supporting the women's stories. What was he "apologizing" for if there was an expectation of sexual contact going in to the massages? From the first 16 lawsuits: only 3 were listed as having no license at all, and one of those was a worker at a spa that he request a massage from. 6 of them are licensed massage therapist, 9 have personally owned business, the rest were licensed as/in estheticians, body contouring, or personal trainers. The Watson fanboys are building a "these were sex workers" narrative that the lawsuit stories don't bear out. A narrative that if false would be quickly disproven in court. They detail him trying to contact them again after and being rejected, him apologizing, etc... all through media that direct records of the communication would be kept.

    The lawsuits have specific dates and times for everything. He should know if he got a massage on that day and by whom, so yes, they are putting their names on it in as private of a way as they can. If he didn't get a massage on a specific day, that should be easy to prove. There are going to have to be some pretty big changes in the known evidence for him to have a chance of fighting this. Sworn testimony is evidence.

    No one has filed a police complaint that I am aware of, but everyone of the first 16 lawsuits requests the "minimum" amount of damages and says that it is for the purpose of stopping him in the future. There could be a massive out of court settlement involving all of the lawsuits, but if any of the women don't want to settle... when all of the accusers were under Buzzbee that seemed more possible than now. Either way, there is no way I can root for a team that employs him based on what is now known.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The Texans finally released a statement to shareholders and barely mentions Watson at all-
    Pretty lame if you ask me- if you can't take a real stance, then don't say anything at all. They should have at least suspended him until the criminal investigation is completed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  7. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

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    The Texans’ organization is a disaster right now; I can’t believe they got any free agents to sign there.
     
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  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Is the reason for no criminal complaints because it's a different burden of proof? I just get a funny feeling when people want to pursue civil penalties and lawsuits, but not criminal.

    If I'd been sexually assaulted, I'd want that person doing jail time in addition to paying me damages in a lawsuit.
     
  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    There was a criminal complaint filed on Friday and the police are investigating it...we don't know if it was one of the 22 cases though (it's now up to 22). The main factor is someone actually filing a complaint since the defendants' lawyer hasn't so far. Once a complaint is filed though, they have to investigate. The other part to that is that the victims have remained anonymous, which is their right. So the cops literally had nothing to investigate until someone came forward.

    Now, "investigate" can mean anything from 'the cops are looking to make an arrest' to 'they filed a report and have zero interest in looking further'. They gather evidence and then present it to the prosecutor, who ultimately decides whether or not to proceed. In a he said/she said situation, they usually don't try to prosecute because there's a high chance they can't get the conviction. So the cell phone texts and stuff like that are critical to making it an actual case.

    A lot of sexual assault victims don't file charges because of the shame....they have to publicly say, "That person did this to me." Then a lot of people judge them....they're making it up, they're looking for attention, they deserved it for wearing this or doing that. The whole process sucks since the victim is just as much on trial as the accused, and police generally explain this up-front that it's an uphill battle to get a conviction. That's why over 90% of sexual assaults don't get reported.
     
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  10. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    You'll likely never have to worry about that so it's impossible to know how you would react.

    When I was 14 I was scammed out of my gold chain by someone and the shame of what I did and how I went along with the scam prevented me from telling anyone, including my parents. Calling the cops never entered my mind.

    I also knew at the time that scumbag was scamming me but he got overly aggressive and I just gave in and handed the chain in exchange for a bundle of wrapped up cardboard. I'd imagine that many of these women walked in the massage knowing he was a famous and beloved player, got in to a very sticky and gross situation, felt terrible about it and were either scared or ashamed to report it.

    I think I read something a few years ago that nearly 4 in 10 women in this country have been sexually assaulted at some point of their life and nearly all of them keep it a secret or don't report it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You have no way of validating the claim that I likely don't have to worry about being sexually assaulted. If it's hard for women to come out, do you think it's easier for a man to come forward?

    Regardless, I didn't need any explaining on his hard it is to come forward. If you're willing to testify in civil court, to get money, what's the difference?

    So, again, is this about it being a different level of evidence needed for a civil case as compared to a criminal case?
     
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  12. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    You are right on the first point. I grew up with a kid that was viciously molested by his uncle and he never spoke about it until he started having issues in his personal life in his mid 20's. For men it's likely a lifelong battle of secrecy and shame.

    As for your question it likely started with a few of them talking months after what happened and it snowballed in to what it has become today.

    I can't pretend to know what legal advice they were given. I'd imagine the civil attorney got wind of Deshean's fetish and borderline criminal behavior and took the bull by the horns and started the litigation.

    Also, there may be some legal grey areas as it relates to sexual assault.. I'm not sure if dry humping the air naked during a massage is a criminal offense. That's up to the legal profession to decide.
     
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  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The difference is that in civil court, it can be a sealed courtroom where victims remain anonymous. That means no being named in the newspapers or having everyone you know wonder if you're making it up for money. It's a lot less messy than criminal court and you're guaranteed to be heard. Remember, in criminal cases you can go thru that entire process, get dragged through the papers and then it never actually gets to a courtroom.

    Civil = guaranteed day in court (or a settlement) to prove damages
    Criminal = depends on evidence, prosecutors, plea bargains, politics, media storm, etc. to prove a crime

    In civil court, you can sue anyone for anything. Someone here calls me a name? I can say that it hurt my feelings so deeply, that I haven't been able to work for six months. And maybe I lose that case, maybe the jury laughs at me...but I'm guaranteed that jury if there's a legit argument where someone's actions caused damage to someone else. That's the main difference other than proving a crime occurred...which is a larger burden.

    For example, let's say we go to a mall together and I pull down your pants in the food court as a joke. Lousy joke, by the way....but you get the picture since teens sometimes do that sort of thing. People laugh and from that instance, you stop hanging out with friends. Maybe you even quit your job. That's real damages that are the result of my actions. And although it's not technically a criminal thing that would get prosecuted, it's easier to ignore that aspect entirely and just focus on "damages" in civil court. It's easier to prove I was a jerk that harmed you than a criminal who sexually assaulted you. Make sense?

    If you're wondering where the "punishment" comes in since this is civil, it's still a pretty big deal. Let's say we go to court and the jury awards $200k damages in your favor. Only, I don't have any money in the bank...so you can't collect. But a civil judgement goes against my name and anytime I try to sell a car, a house, or whatever that money goes to you 1st. Tax returns, stimulus and stuff like that would go directly to you as well automatically, and the government would also garnish my paychecks (up to 75%!!!). It would also be on my credit report seriously bringing down my score for loans, credit cards, etc. So it's actually a lot more damning for the average person than a major celebrity with money.

    To me, that's harsher than actual jail time...you and I both know that people can hang out and have fun in jail. The civil path essentially ruins you. Heck, it destroyed OJ and he had millions in the bank...he lost everything on a guilty civil verdict.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  14. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good for you, but people are different. That, "if it were me" argument is so dangerous. Some people want to put everything behind them and focus on recovery. For them a trial will just retraumatize, and they are more concerned with getting their lives together than revenge. Or, they want more control over the proceedings. Or, they have had bad experiences with law enforcement, or other governmental systems. Or, they are dependent in some way to the person that assaulted them. We are talking about people that have been traumatized, which is proven to affect judgment, etc...

    There are also many reasons to go civil vs criminal. Criminal proceedings are state vs citizen. The DA is the lawyer in court prosecuting the defendant and they represent the state, and often are elected. And, there for are dependent on public opinion, or have further political asperations that could influence decisions. The current Vice President started as a DA. The defendant enjoys a presumption of innocence, they are supposed to be proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". The lawsuits I saw all stated that the purpose of the lawsuit was to prevent it from happening in the future, and asked for the minimum amount of damages. Watson's camp has claimed one or two of them hit them up for money prior. There are now 22 lawsuits. I don't care if some, or all, want $, but there isn't much evidence for that yet. The most public trial that I can remember, OJ, had the obvious proper result civilly, not criminally.
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    1. Again, your first paragraph didn't address my question. I understand people who suffer abuse, and never come forward, for whatever reason. I get that. We're taking about women coming forward in a civil suit, though.

    2. It seems strange to me that a victim would choose to only punish their offer monetarily, while leaving then on the streets to potentially offend on other people.

    I was not trying to go into some sort of psychological/political discussion. It was simply a question of if there were particular reasons, in the sense of the law, that would make a civil suit easier to win than a criminal suit.
     
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  16. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    In general, though I'm not a legal eagle here, iirc criminal charges do generally have a higher burden of proof than civil. It's also more of a winner take all situation, so if Watson could present juuuuuuust enough doubt/evidence (which is not uncommon in sexual cases unfortunately, where victims are often either portrayed as willing, unreliable or promiscuous) he could get out of the charges legally and face no repercussion.

    For point number 2, are you asserting that only jailtime can stop a person from continuing their behavior? Or that Watson has/will only lose money? Because both are quite false. Good luck to him booking another massage therapist who won't immediately sue him if he wiggles his junk in their face. Also good luck avoiding NFL punishment, and good luck getting the media back on your side.

    But then again, maybe he can just be like Ray Lewis and everyone forgets everything.
     
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  17. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    1. First paragraph is directed in general at judging how others chose to proceed with what happened to them, and the idea that what you would do applies to them. It's great that you think the best course of action is through the AD office. They might not, for a whole host of reasons. I listed some of those reasons. If you don't want to discuss your opinion, then don't bring it up.

    2. Did you miss the part in every suit where they are specifically asking for the minimum amount of damages? Right now we have Watson claiming that one of them made demands for money, while also claiming that he never heard of any issues, and his business guy with a weird story about a single bungled attempted blackmail. There are now 22 lawsuits. I read the first 16 and all specifically asked for the minimum amount of damages, and stated that they were to stop him in the future. Because losing those lawsuits would be very damaging to his reputation, and bring a massive amount of attention. Now this could change, but that is what is known now. Maybe they all want massive settlements, but they aren't asking for massive awards.

    Again, If the documents published are the same as the documents filed, and I haven't read any claims differently, in court the women aren't trying to get $. That is a narrative being pushed by Watson and his fanboys. Even if you take Watson at his word, it's either one or two of them, depending on if he and his partner are talking about the same person, out of 22 that have asked for $.

    I also posted a bunch of reasons why a criminal case is different than a civil suit. So have others in this thread. You haven't addressed any of those reasons, and are still asking why. What are we talking about here, which part are you unclear about? The difference between the DA and ones own attorney? Differences is court proceedings? Differences in evidence needed for a decision vs a convection? What is it that you are still missing?
     
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Thanks for your answer. Makes sense.

    Point number 2 was simply that regardless of civil penalties, he's still out walking around free, with the potential to sexually assault someone else. Doesn't mean it would be a masseuse, he might look for other targets now.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, are you saying that when you talk about women not coming forward, that status includes women who file civil suits? My understanding is that most women do not come forward in ANY capacity. If one is worried about shame/repercussions/etc, why would you file a civil suit?

    Civil damages don't put a person behind bars. Regardless of how extensive the civil penalties are, they are still free to walk about the streets.
     
  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what specifically happened with Ray Lewis? I know he was charged with manslaughter- was he convicted? Anyone know the circumstances? I figured that I could Google it but since there's so little going on right now with football, it made more sense to ask here. =)
     
  21. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    This is brilliant.
     
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  22. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    what are you referring to with the bold? Did you read any of the questions at the end of my last post. I will restate them: What are we talking about here, which part are you unclear about? The difference between the DA and ones own attorney? Differences is court proceedings? Differences in evidence needed for a decision vs a convection? What is it that you are still missing?

    And, Ok? Yes, they aren't trying to put him in jail. I wrote what they stated they are trying to do in the lawsuits. You seemed confused. They are asking for the least amount of penalties in the lawsuits. They want him prevent him from doing it to others by exposing him. If the lawsuits go further there will be testimony under oath. They will be able to read their stories into the record. I feel like this conversation is looping with out having any communication. You keep asking the same thing with out addressing any of the responses.
     
  23. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I wish I could claim it as my own. I don’t know if it’s widespread or just a local idiom.
     
  24. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Nike and Beats by Dre have suspended their endorsement with Deshaun. I think a commission exempt list is coming soon
     
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  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Some of the accusers have also gone public today, and I have to say at first glance they appear legitimate. Here's the 1st woman to originally file an accusation and another is briefly in there as well-

     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Quick update- it appears that the Texans are starting to remove Watson from their branding in team video intros and around their website. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but I have a gut feeling that he's about to be placed on leave by the NFL or flat-out cut from the team. It's an absolute nightmare situation for Houston and I actually feel bad for them...they should have traded the guy a month ago to the Jets!

    From what I'm reading, there is zero outside trade interest around the league at this time.
     
  27. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Houston has been stupid about this from the jump. If they had any self-awareness they'd have seen the burned bridges and parted ways with Watson ASAP. They could have owned the #1 pick in this draft, or a ton of picks from the Jets. Instead, they waited, to show they were in control, and now they have no picks, no QB for the 2021 season, and a PR nightmare.

    On the plus side, they should secure the #1 pick for 2022 fairly easily. Too bad there might not be a decent QB in that draft, but I just can't feel sorry for anyone but their fans.
     
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  28. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The old saying about a bird in the hand applies. 6 weeks ago they could have traded Deshaun for the #3 overall and Tua plus maybe some change. Now they have no picks, no QB and no clue.
     
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  29. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    As much as I despise Jets fans, I wouldn't wish that on to them............who am I kidding?? That would have been great!
     
  30. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Houston is a complete clownshow right now regardless of the Watson situation. Incompetent ownership on full display.

    But yeah, it's almost a certainty that the NFL will put him on some type of leave/suspension while this plays out. Texans will probably wait for it to play out, and may try and do something like void the contract.
     
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  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Thank you, that is what I was looking for.
     
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  32. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    If they were going to be willing to trade him it probably wouldn't have happened until somewhat closer to the draft anyway so they were always destined to be screwed.
     
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