1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Deshaun Watson

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rick 1966, Jan 7, 2021.

  1. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    Except they told him they would. They are a dumpster fire of an organization and he is an elite QB. Anyone with any sense would want out.

    And your analogy makes no sense since he would love to be fired.
     
    resnor and Rick 1966 like this.
  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Some of the greatest players in team sports history have been highly selfish and arrogant, and you're making a grave mistake if you don't include them on the team because of their personality or antics. Maybe the best contemporary example is from soccer: Cristiano Ronaldo.

    That guy is as selfish as they get (just google and you'll find tons of examples), but is one of the top 2 players alive, top 5 all time AND he wins championships.. MANY of them.

    Sometimes a player is so good you're better off with him than without, even if he's selfish. American football has had its share too. Both Randy Moss and Terrell Owens were both more "I" than "we" oriented.
     
    resnor likes this.
  3. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY
    He didn't tell them they HAD to. They promised they WOULD.
     
    resnor likes this.
  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Two 1sts and a 3rd is a FAR cry from what Houston will demand. I already posted a link saying they want 3 1sts, 3 2nds AND a Pro Bowl level player to get the discussion started. Now maybe that's just their opening gambit, but it's probably not too far off from what a team would end up paying given the massive amount of interest for a proven elite QB in his prime.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
    OwesOwn614 and texanphinatic like this.
  5. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    11,881
    4,834
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Something like Tua, a young player (Wilkins, Noah, Hunt) and then the 3, 36 and 50 plus a first and third next year might get a good bite.

    The biggest issue would be their eval on Tua. If they aren't sold on him, we'd need to increase the picks, or work a crazy three-team deal.

    The #3 overall is probably the biggest asset, and it can reasonably equated to two later round firsts that a team like the Colts or Steelers would be looking to provide. Overall, it's a reasonable deal. I'm not sure how it would work cap-wise, so aside from retaining the #18, ideally you'd be able to target an upper-echelon WR and/or RB in free agency and draft whichever you don't sign.
     
    cbrad likes this.
  6. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah that's more realistic. Keep in mind the Jets are a serious competitor though. They have 2 1sts in both 2021 and 2022 and with the #2 pick the Texans could draft a new QB (better than #3 where they might get their 3rd choice at QB). In other words, that could drive down the value of Tua and force us to give up more picks to compete.

    As far as cap hit, it's $40.4M in 2021 and $42.4M in 2022. Given that, the proposed trade is right on the borderline (for me) as to whether it's worth trading for Watson or not. It gives us little room for error if the goal is to win a championship, but it would make us instant contenders with a few extra assets at WR.
     
    mlb1399 and texanphinatic like this.
  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    11,881
    4,834
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    The Jests are more talent-bereft though, not even Watson will change that. I'm sure he will want to go to a team ready to compete. They have been plagued by ownership/front office drama as well, though Salah adds some immediate credibility. He's the team I'd hope Watson would pull the "no trade" clause on. The other teams that I feel would have most interest ... Saints, Colts, Steelers, 49ers, Raiders, WFT - basically any playoff or near playoff team without a strong QB, which is a surprisingly large group. I also wouldn't put it past Jerruh to make a crazy move with the Cowboys.
     
  8. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,757
    3,786
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    I'm gonna have to pass in that case. If we're pressed to get a QB, we can get one at #3 and still address our many needs in the draft. I love Watson but he's not going to make us a championship team without the help those assets could provide.
     
  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    That's not what happened. The owner went to Watson and asked for advice, and said that he wanted Watson to be a part of the decision making process hiring a coach and a GM. Then a week later, the team mysteriously hired someone who wasn't even a candidate. Watson's suggestions weren't even contacted, which made him question why the owner came to him in the first place.

    Additionally, Watson was being pressured by other players to step up as the team leader and say something- they felt like the "Patriot Way" didn't work in Houston and led to the team's dysfunction. Yet they fired one Belichek disciple to bring in another one without the front office being consulted- all because of a "chaplain" that had the owner's ear and convinced him to make the move. Houston also paid a handsome sum to a consulting group of former HOF coaches/executives and the owner 100% ignored their advice as well...everyone was ignored in favor of the chaplain's ideas.

    Watson (and others) want out because the owner is being manipulated to ignore his players and his front office. Nobody wants to work where there's a broken chain of command and an owner who's too blind to see he's betraying his own team. This isn't even a football coach or GM...it's the former pastor from another team who is essentially making all the franchise decisions. The owner and the pastor are close friends and pray together often, so it's just a tough dynamic for everyone involved- nobody wants to be there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    Pauly, brandon27, OwesOwn614 and 3 others like this.
  10. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    3,582
    2,579
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    You have a lot more faith in Tua. We will see I suppose how things play out.
     
    resnor likes this.
  11. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

    756
    443
    63
    Apr 26, 2012
    I'd love to see Watson play for the Phins.

    But aren't we cutting off our nose to spite our face if we give up the assets we assembled just to get him.

    He's not a miracle worker, he couldn't save the Texans a year after making the AFC Championship. And all he really lost was a WR.

    Sure give them back their pick, Tua and even their second round pick back. But not our first round pick and I've been hearing they want Xavien Howard too? EFF THAT!!!!
     
    Hooligan likes this.
  12. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    624
    790
    93
    Dec 31, 2018
    Costa Rica
    This Watson hype is getting out of hand. IF you have such little confidence in Tua that you're willing to give up two firsts and several others TO GET RID OF HIM then why not just take another QB with the #3 pick to compete with him thereby doubling your chance of getting a good QB and still have the other picks to build the team. If you whiff on two high pick QBs then you probably should overhaul your scouting department and get rid of your GM. Build the team through the draft, not with other team's malcontents.
     
  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    More drama...

     
  14. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    It's so classic on this board the some poster argue Tua's trash and then turn around and imagine that he has this fantastic trade value because of his potential. The draft is a total crap shoot at QB. Just look at all of the the QB's taken in the 1st round. This decade a total of 117 quarterbacks were plucked from the college ranks and 30 were selected in the first round. Only two quarterbacks drafted since 2010 have won the Super Bowl — Russell Wilson and Nick Foles — both were drafted in the third round. 3 more reached the Super Bowl and lost — second-round (POS) Colin Kaepernick and top overall choices Cam Newton and Jared Goff.
     
  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    You're overvaluing high draft picks when it comes to finding a great (or very good) QB. Just take a look at the 1st QB taken in the draft from 1999 onwards, after that massive success with Peyton Manning in 1998.

    1999: Tim Couch (1st overall pick)
    2000: Chad Pennington
    2001: Michael Vick (1st overall pick)
    2002: David Carr (1st overall pick)
    2003: Carson Palmer (1st overall pick)
    2004: Eli Manning (1st overall pick)
    2005: Alex Smith (1st overall pick)
    2006: Vince Young
    2007: JaMarcus Russell (1st overall pick)
    2008: Matt Ryan
    2009: Matthew Stafford (1st overall pick)
    2010: Sam Bradford (1st overall pick)
    2011: Cam Newton (1st overall pick)
    2012: Andrew Luck (1st overall pick)
    2013: EJ Manuel
    2014: Blake Bortles
    2015: Jameis Winston (1st overall pick)
    2016: Jared Goff (1st overall pick)
    2017: Mitch Trubisky

    Leaving out the last 3 years because we should give QB's some time to prove themselves, that's a depressing list, and that's when you get the pick of the litter, not the 2nd or 3rd most coveted QB like we'd be picking.

    Basically, after Peyton Manning not ONE QB that was the first QB picked was elite. Most are average statistically, many are busts, and just a small percentage above average. NONE at Watson's level.

    Do you see how valuable a proven elite QB in his prime is? It's nowhere near 2 or even 3 1st rounders. People pay that kind of capital for the CHANCE to find a great QB. Washington paid 3 1st rounders AND a 2nd just to move up 4 spots in the draft to pick RG3. That's why Watson is so valuable.

    And none of this is dissing Tua. Even Peyton Manning didn't show he wasn't a bust his rookie year. It's just that a proven elite QB in his prime is the most valuable thing in football as far as players (i.e., excepting the HC) are concerned.
     
    resnor, Pauly, Jersey Dolfan and 2 others like this.
  16. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    3,582
    2,579
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I wouldn't say that list is terrible honestly. You can boil that down to the fact some years there isnt a sure QB readily available and they get drafted early anyway.

    A good portion of that list had careers that werent bad and/or brought down by their surroundings, or no-one in their right mind thought they were elite to begin with (Russel and EJ as good examples)
     
  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    All that post did was make me feel old, LOL. Vick was 20 years ago? Cam was 10 years ago? Wow!
     
    RevRick and cbrad like this.
  18. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

    2,068
    1,731
    113
    Sep 29, 2016
    As much as I don’t want Miami to give up too much for Watson, I really don’t want to see him in a Jets uniform.
     
    Jersey Dolfan likes this.
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    It's not a bad list- but most fans would rank Watson above the majority of those names, including a few Super Bowl winners. It really is that hard to find an elite franchise QB.
     
    resnor and Jersey Dolfan like this.
  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    3,582
    2,579
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    Oh I'm not saying it's easy or that Watson isnt better than most or all, he is.

    I was just pointing out that list isnt entirely awful and the awful parts have more to do with over drafting the position.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  21. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    AFTER the fact one could say that. But that's generally not the sentiment at the time. Many of those QB's were hyped, and there's a reason so many of them went #1 overall rather than just at some point in the 1st round.

    It's just reinforcing what I said earlier about even the pros not being good at QB evals. I mean, why pick a QB that high if he's not thought to be good? And the list doesn't look better once you go to 2nd or 3rd picks etc. It actually overall tends to get worse (if you go by average success).
     
  22. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    3,582
    2,579
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    Just to pick at one thing, you needed hindsight to know Jamarcus Russel or EJ Manuel werent first round talents? I dont think that requires hindsight. I remember even at the time of the draft every analyst was saying Russell isnt a #1 overall pick but the class is weak, and was a project QB.

    Everyone and their mother thought Manuel was a reach.

    I'd consider Vick, Pennington, Stafford, Palmer, Ryan and Luck to be players who had enough success in their careers to warrant a first round selection.

    Eli Manning is debatable. You're also leaving off Rivers who though not selected first was traded for the QB selected first.

    As I've said before you could also theoretically hold the position that teams drafting earlier either feel pressure to take the media consensus QB or have weaker scouting departments generally.
     
    resnor likes this.
  23. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    11,881
    4,834
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Mahomes?

    And for each first rounder who busts out, there is likely half a dozen non-first rounders. Brady and Wilson are the exceptions to finding a QB who can play at a sustained high level for multiple years. Nick Foles got lucky, but you can't build a sustained product around him.

    We are seeing a changing of the guard from Brady, Brees, Big Ben, Eli, Rivers and dudes taken in that time to Mahomes, Watson, Mayfield, Goff, Allen, Jackson, etc. Toss in Burrow, Herbert, maybe Tua and dudes from this draft like Lawrence, Fields and Wilson.

    It's about potential versus what's essentially a guarantee. How much is the guarantee worth? Ask anyone on this board and we will likely hear different answers.
     
    Jersey Dolfan likes this.
  24. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    Guarantee - how many QB's moving to other teams and being successful have there been. Not a lot. I wouldn't put it in the Guarantee range. Maybe a better way would be to put it as proven vs. potential.
     
  25. Jersey Dolfan

    Jersey Dolfan Active Member

    196
    138
    43
    Sep 9, 2012
    Sucks for them that Watson has a no trade clause. They can't just go for the highest bidder.
     
  26. Jersey Dolfan

    Jersey Dolfan Active Member

    196
    138
    43
    Sep 9, 2012
    It won't. It's rebuilt next year if we get some decent offensive wrs through draft and FA and bring watson in, we are contenders right then and there.
     
  27. Jersey Dolfan

    Jersey Dolfan Active Member

    196
    138
    43
    Sep 9, 2012
    Those QBs left because they weren't that good or panning out...Tua would be in the no guarantee range...Watson, not so much.
     
    resnor likes this.
  28. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,757
    3,786
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    Personally, I'm more than comfortable bringing Tua back. I'd draft a QB in the 3rd round if one with a 1st or 2nd round grade falls (like they frequently do) to give him competition the way Washington used Cousins to back up and inspire RG3. People are enamored with Fitz and he was a 7th round draft pick, so it stands to reason we can find a rookie who may be green but has higher upside. But there's no way I'd trade more than the first pick (and maybe a third) for a guy who's going to command 20% of the salary cap when we have too many needs to address. And I absolutely love Watson.
     
    Pennphinphan likes this.
  29. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    Well how often do elite QBs switch teams that early into their prime?
     
    resnor and PhinFan1968 like this.
  30. Pennphinphan

    Pennphinphan AKA Pennphinfan but I forgot my login

    135
    82
    28
    Dec 25, 2016
    If it really took the equivalent of 6 or more picks from the 1st/2nd rounds to get watson we'd be better off just drafting a qb in the early rounds every year for the next 6 years until one sticks, without having to sacrifice our entire next 2 drafts.

    That said I'm still not a fan of that option either. But I guess this is the off-season clickbait that we'll have to deal with til April. Joy..
     
    JJ_79 likes this.
  31. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY
    I think our choice is between a second-year QB who MIGHT improve to the level of a consistent starter and someone who is a proven top-tier starter. Since Watson has to approve any trade, I will be shocked if Watson winds up being traded anywhere except Miami. The only other team I could see him wanting to go to who might be willing to give up the picks is Chicago. Aside from those two, I think either he stays right where he is or retires early.
     
  32. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Never.
     
    resnor and Fireland like this.
  33. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    11,881
    4,834
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Why wouldn't he want to play for a team like San Fran, Indy or Pittsburgh, especially if his main goal is just leave Houston?
     
  34. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

    3,163
    2,325
    113
    Sep 13, 2011
    A player at the quarterback position as good as Watson is never just becomes available in the prime of their career. Houston can and should get a lot in return for him. I think the likelihood of him being traded is very high unless he can work something out with the team. In other words, he finds a way to squash it
    . I think we should be all over this! We have a slew of draft picks to work with on this, along with a few talented younger players. I say we give them back the third pick in the draft, This years third, next years first, and Tua for starters and see where it goes from there. As much as I like Tua, I don't think he'll ever be as talented as Deshaun Watson. The Buffalo game really soured me on him all together.
    I think Watson could very well have at least two MVP seasons before his career is up. It's an absolute gem of an opportunity for us to solidify this team with a franchise quarterback for the next 10+ years. I don't know why we wouldn't do this if Houston is in fact going to trade him. It would be every bit as regrettable as passing on Drew Brees was. Remember that? It still stings and it'll finally stop hurting now that he's going to retire. No no, don't mess around with this. If Watson is available, make the call and give the Texans what they want. The rest of this can be worked out as time goes on.
     
    resnor likes this.
  35. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY
    His main goal is to go a team where he can win. He might go to Indy, but I just don't see Indy making the trade. Pittsburgh has the 24th overall pick, which means they would likely have to give up their number one pick for the next three drafts. I don't see them doing that either. Frisco is a possibility, but Garoppolo has a no-trade clause until 2022 so they'd be stuck with two high-dollar QBs.
     
    resnor likes this.
  36. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    11,881
    4,834
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Garoppolo is going to be traded or cut, he's done.

    I do agree we have better resources than any of those teams, and if we really wanted we could almost certainly outbid them. I just don't see any reason why Watson would veto a trade to those places. If, say, San Fran is more desperate for him than we are and puts up a better package, I doubt he would say "nah" if the goal is just to get out from McNair and Easterby.
     
  37. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY
    They can't trade Garoppolo without his consent until 22.
     
    resnor likes this.
  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I didn't see any 49ers games this season- was Jimmy G not playing well?
     
  39. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    11,881
    4,834
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    He was hurt for the vast majority, and sucked the rest.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  40. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    It will be interesting and unique, this situation, as far as I can remember, has NEVER happened in the Super Bowl era. And like you said, Miami, value-wise, probably has the easiest path to satisfying what Houston would expect for the trade. In the end it almost doesn't matter...it's essentially going to be Deshaun's call.

    But none of that answers, "why would Deshaun want to play in Miami?" There are a few possible reasons:

    1. Flo.
    2. Grier.
    3. Ross.
    4. Potential FA WRs.
    5. Its friggin' Miami! (OK...its not everything, but DAMN that's a great place to be and NOT pay state taxes, which he's used to).

    Reasons 1 and 2 have to be biggies for Deshaun, based on his recent dealings and wishes for the Houston organization. Why would he NOT want to roll with Flo? Flo seems to have his players' trust...unlike the Texans organization. Houston flat out lied to him and disregarded him completely against their promises to him (why they made those promises in the first place, I'll never understand lol).

    I'm personally about 75% sure he's gone...and that's being generous to Houston. I have to believe he'll be wearing a new uniform next year, the current line on who that will be has Miami #1 @ 36%, San Fran #2 @ 30%, and a bunch of other teams making up the rest of the percentage...but ultimately it will come down to Deshaun and what he wants...much to Houston's dismay.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    resnor likes this.

Share This Page