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Thoughts on benching Tua?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jdallen1222, Nov 22, 2020.

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  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I wanted Jalen Hurts as a long-term project off of a 3rd round pick...much different path than taking a guy at #5 overall. Nobody expected him to be a starter this season.
     
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  2. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, a majority of the good QB’s are taking outside of the top 5 anyways. I’m sure in part due to the top 5 teams having too many issues that even a great QB can’t completely overcome.

    Roethlisberger, Rivers, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, Watson, Allen, Jackson, Brees, Wilson were all taking outside the top 5 and all but Allen were taken outside the top 10.

    In fact, not one QB ranked in the top 10 in passer rating was taking in the top 5.
     
  3. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Same here if I would have taken a QB in last years draft and I would have gone after one of the QB's in this upcoming draft.
     
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  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't think it's at all accurate to compare to Tannehill. Tannehill was a converted wide receiver, incredibly raw, but with a high ceiling. Tannehill is tall, takes hits like the Terminator, and has an elite arm. Tua was supposed to be NFL ready, smart, accurate, which was supposed to make up for his weak arm, short stature, and average mobility. Tua should not need the same supports a raw rookie like Tannehill needed.
     
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  5. Jersey Dolfan

    Jersey Dolfan Active Member

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    Exactly, Tua was supposed to be a generational talent who would transform the franchise. Now he's a run-of-the-mill rookie who needs time to develop literally every aspect of his game. In a couple years, they will be arguing that he's serviceable and we should stick with him bc if we can get a better defense he would be able to get us at least a wildcard spot (or...wait...sounds very recently familiar?)

    I'm not happy about it. But I'd rather be glad we drafted another guy when we find that out, then to have to start all over again.
     
  6. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I get what you’re saying. I guess the comparison I was trying to emphasize is like Tannehill, Tagovailoa was drafted to a team void of offensive talent.

    I don’t care who you are, you can’t throw the ball to yourself and you can’t hand the ball off to yourself. Tannehill didn’t have crap for skill set players and neither does Tagovailoa.

    That was the comparative point I was trying to make.
     
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  7. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    You're right Tannehill was a project and was hampered by terrible coaches. Tua was supposed to be god's gift to the franchise(along with Flores). Tua will never amount to anything in the NFL.
     
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  8. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I know you're not a fan of Tagovailoa. The jury's still out with me but let me ask you this one question...sincerely...and if you're objective and HONEST, you may alter your view of Tua...

    Here in Miami...where is our Jerry Jeudy? Where is our Devonta Smith? Where is our Damien Harris? Where is our Najee Harris? See where I'm going with this? Tagovailoa...and Jalen Hurts and Mac Jones for that matter were all successful in Alabama because Saban had a complete offense to work with. Tua doesn't have any of this...not yet anyhow.

    If your team isn't complete; if your offense isn't completely stocked with reliable receivers and reliable running backs, you're not going to win. You could put Patrick Mahomes in our huddle and he wouldn't fair much better with the substandard offensive talent we have.
     
  9. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Thing is, you might be right. But if you're wrong, we are going to blow yet another shot to get a franchise QB, probably our best shot yet. We have the third overall pick, something we haven't had in 7 years and only once before in the last twelve. And we screwed up the one in 2013 by picking a never-was DE who never even played for us. If we don't draft a QB in this draft, our next first round pick will likely be no higher than the 20s and next year's draft will be nowhere near as stacked with QBs as this one.
    And if we blow it in this draft and take a QB who turns out to be bad, we have two first rounders and two second rounders to stock up other talent, so it's not a complete disaster.
     
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  10. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    It's no use. People were yelling at him for sliding last game. The same people, if Tua didn't slide and got hurt or fumbled, who would say "WHY DIDN'T HE SLIDE THE GAME IS TOO FAST FOR HIM", "HE HAS NO AWARENESS" or "HE KNOWS HE'S INJURY PRONE WHY DIDN'T HE SLIDE!?"

    No use arguing. I figured people would have cooled down by now.
     
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  11. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Tua sucks but we're probably going to be picking close to the 20's next year. OK. If he sucks so bad you should want him to play next year so we get the 1st pick, right?

    Man, you people need to stop. Foolish.
     
  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing- we have no idea how our front office rates the QB's in this draft....meaning, we don't need to spend #3 on a QB just because Fields might be there. It's fine to bring in a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round if you have him rated highly and believe he has long-term potential. Because either way, that 2021 QB is riding the bench and learning the system until further notice.

    Now, if the front office thinks that it's Lawrence or Fields only, then it's a different conversation. Maybe we need to trade up to get our guy. But I have a hard time believing that they're 100% all-in on one of those names after being 100% all-in on Tua 10 months ago. The only way that makes sense is if Ross said, "Draft Tua, no matter what...," and now the front office is helping him see the error in judgement there.

    It doesn't feel like that's the case though since GM's and coaches are very tied to the big-name QB's they choose. It really stinks because a few years ago, Ross said "Draft Lamar Jackson" and Gase said no.
     
  13. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    The thing Rick is I KNOW I'm right!!!! There are so many here who are always quarterback quarterback quarterback...that's ***ALL*** they ever tout. Right now there are so many who have an overdosed viagra induced erection over Patrick Mahomes...and I'm not taking ANYTHING away from that kid's talent...but look who he throws the ball to. Sammy Watkins, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce. Look who he's handing the ball off to...Edwards-Helaire and LeVeon Bell. If Mahomes didn't have this exception roster of talent, he wouldn't be HALF of the quarterback he is.

    THIS debate has been going on in the Tannehill thread for 2 years now. Tannehill is only doing well because of Derrick Henry. Well duh!!! Mahomes is only doing well because of the aforementioned talent...and Tagovailoa is doing poorly because he has NONE of the talent mentioned above.

    You can only make so much chicken salad when you have nothing but chicken ****e. Get some talent in here...build the offensive roster completely so you're not dependent on ONE player like the Colts with Manning. Get Tua his Jerry Jeudy, his Devonta Smith, his Najee Harris and let's see what he can do with some true talent. THEN you can get the pitchforks and torches to burn Frankenstein's monster if he doesn't produce. At least then, you have a team you can find a "Tannehill" in free agency.
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yet Fitz makes the offense hum. Agreed it's unfair to expect Tua to run the offense as good as a vet, but Tua didn't even try to make it work. He doesn't see when receivers are open. That is a problem. You want to bank on him fixing that problem, but, like I've said already, who cares if he fixes it? It's not gonna turn him into an elite QB. It will make him an average QB. Like Fitz. But without the arm.
     
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  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Tannehill is doing well in Tennessee because he is elite at some things, and that offense maximizes those.

    Tua doesn't have any elite measurables. So even with a better supporting cast, nothing I've ever seen from Tua would indicate that he would ever play at Tannehill's level.

    Also, any QB will excel with a great wide receiver. Freaking Culpepper looked like a god when he was throwing to Moss.
     
  16. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    We went 10-6 this season despite playing a trigger-happy journeyman and a noodle-armed rookie at QB and having a revolving door at RB, TE, WR and OL. With another draft and FA, Flores can have this team in the playoff race again even with Tua as QB. But I don't want just a playoff contender. I want a team that can make a push for a SB, and for that, you need a Pro-Bowl caliber QB. And don't tell me what I need to do, because it just makes you sound foolish.
     
  17. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I don't agree. Mahomes isn't just doing well because of his surrounding cast, that's a dumb statement. The kid can make throws NO ONE else in the NFL can. He throws off his back foot, across his body to the opposite sideline 20 yards down the field and 60 yards in all and it's still right on the money. He's on a SB championship team because of his surrounding cast, but they'd be a perennial playoff team if he had a bunch of scrubs surrounding him.
     
  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You know Tua was being compared to Steve Young while in Alabama by a bunch of people, including by Steve Young himself. Young said this about him:
    You don't need elite measurables to be elite. And Young had a terrible debut in Tampa, not just his first season but also his second, WAY worse than Tua. Yet he ended up #1 in career adjusted passer rating (and that includes his bad years) for starting QB's with 3000+ attempts.

    There are too many QB's that have succeeded after a bad rookie season to just dismiss Tua as a failure. Hell, Josh Allen was 2nd worst his rookie season among all starters, again WAY worse than Tua. Look at him now. And Allen had accuracy issues his first 2 years, which are well known to be hard to fix, meaning the argument was strong for saying he'd never make it.

    Anyway, it doesn't look like anyone is changing their minds over Tua, which is fine. I'm actually happy that most people on both sides of the argument see the tremendous importance of the QB. But I think a reality check is coming for those thinking Flores is giving up on Tua and drafting a QB with our first pick. I think Flores will go heavy on drafting good surrounding players for Tua and see how he does with a better supporting cast and a full offseason.
     
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  19. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    So, our 22 year old rookie quarterback will be good enough to get us in the playoff race next year. That sounds great! Is it possible he can improve with a full off-season program, a better roster and a year experience under his belt?

    You don't even really know what you're saying or complaining about. Stop rushing to judgement. You admitted in this post this team did good with no real talent. Let's see what he does with a talented roster.
     
  20. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Don't tell me what I know or don't know. I'm judging what I see from previous experience. Tua will likely improve, but his skills are of a game manager, not a QB who can carry a team. He's serviceable but he's no star. And when you draft someone that high, you expect more than serviceable. If you think a few cranky fans on the internet are the only ones saying this, you're wearing blinders. EVERYONE is saying it. Everyone who isn't looking at him through aqua and orange glasses can see exactly what he is, particularly compared to the other QBs taken in this draft. We screwed up but fortunately, we get a chance at a do-over. As long as the front office isn't too stubborn or stupid to take it.
     
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  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Oh surprise, people slobbered over the pretty boy feel good story of the QB for the best team in the nation.

    I didn't see Steve Young when I watched Tua play. Steve Young can say whatever he wants, and I can think it's completely wrong.
     
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  22. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty fair take imo...

     
  23. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    I remember how Steve Young was raving about Marcus Mariota too....

    Although Young was an amazing QB.... he has one of the worse takes ever.
     
  24. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    And yet. Fitz an NFL journeyman always seemed to find the open guy and not get himself sacked!
     
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  25. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    And let's face it this guy would have been benched in 2nd half if the journeyman did not have COVId.That would have made 3 benchings in the last 7 games.He did not show any improvement as the season progressed!That's my biggest concern right there.
     
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  26. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You know, it’s annoying to me that a lot of you are making me defend a quarterback that I wasn’t keen on drafting in the first place and I’m not sold on now.

    Am I the only one here that understands the quarterback is not the only player on offense?

    Am I the only one here that understands the difference between a 38 year old veteran with 17 years of experience versus a 22 year old snot nosed rookie kid?

    It’s because of this nonsensical mindset that ownership gave in to the masses and drafted a quarterback when we already had one.

    It’s because of this nonsensical mindset that the seed of drafting yet another quarterback will be planted instead of actually getting TALENT on offense that actually makes us a threat.

    It’s because this nonsensical mindset has fans more interested in quarterback stats and tv ratings instead of the actual purity of the game itself in how you perennially win year after year that’s going to cause us to come up THAT short year after year.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love a long deep touchdown passes just as much as the next guy, but I’d be happier with with a quarterback that only has to throw the ball 25 times a game and an offense that brutally punishes and humiliates a defense with a ground pounding game and wins week after week.

    But alas we have no true running threat nor any true receiving threat...so everyone keep piling on the rookie quarterback and rationalize it with the “yea, but” nonsensical argument.
     
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  27. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Amen DK, the takes in here and nonsensical just like you said.
     
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  28. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Clearly not. It seems like the board is split 50/50 on this issue. Like I said though it doesn't really matter because: 1) people aren't changing their minds, and 2) Flores' comments suggest he's satisfied with Tua's entire body of work and that people shouldn't just focus on the few bad games in evaluating him.

    Actually Flores said more than that. He said 2020 was NOT an "audition" for Tua to see if we need to draft a new QB:
    Granted, he said that in November, but he's been consistent in that regard with comments on Tua's overall development and play. So whatever those half of posters who want another QB with the #3 pick think, Flores himself has already told us he's going to try to develop Tua, meaning that we're probably drafting non-QB positions on offense with our high picks.
     
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  29. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    No, you're just ignoring what everyone else is actually saying. No one--NO ONE--is saying Tua should have won the SB or beaten the Bills. The ONLY thing EVERYONE is saying is that he doesn't show the promise you want from a fifth-overall pick. He's not the kind of QB you want to take as your team's future.

    That's a load of BS. We had TWO first round picks and TWO second round picks last year. Tua was just one. There was plenty of time and opportunity to draft or bring in via FA good WRs and RBs. We just didn't do it. That's the fault of the front office, not some nebulous voice of the fans that doesn't actually have any effect. Ross might have pressured Grier and Flores to take Tua, but he never told them not to take a WR later on.
    In this coming draft, we ALSO have two firsts and two seconds, and there's nothing to prevent us from using one of those firsts and both the seconds to take offensive talent AFTER we take a QB at three.
     
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  30. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We had three (3) first round picks.
     
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  31. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Yes, you're correct. Even less excuse for not taking more offensive weapons.
     
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  32. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    :pity:
    Yea, drafting a SOLID offensive lineman and a SOLID DB were really crappy picks!

    For the first time in ages our OL actually played well and our defense was the number one ranked defense in points allowed.

    Guess we should have built the roof before even building the foundation or walls first.
     
  33. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I think people forget how depleted our roster was. If we had drafted receivers they’d be complaining about OL or DL.

    You don’t go from 2019’s roster and win a championship in a year after you cut out all that fat, traded away several pieces and decided to rebuild.

    If you’re going to rebuild the right way, it’s going to take 3-4 years to get the right pieces, make sure they have the experience and know how to play as a team.
     
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  34. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    You actually think Igbinoghene was a better pick then a WR? And you think we should have waited until the SIXTH round to draft a WR?
     
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  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The offensive line ALWAYS has to come first. Otherwise, there's zero chance you get a good evaluation on your QB or other skill positions (for more information, visit the Ryan Tannehill thread).

    The QB HAS TO come 2nd, because he has to know that offense inside and out. You don't need elite receivers for the QB to learn the offense and execute.

    However, we took a parallel path by getting the QB and building a very elite defensive secondary. That also trumps the need for elite skill players on offense since it lessens the production you need to win.

    The final steps are those skill guys- WR's, TE's and RB's. Luckily we came into this with Gisecki and we drafted a few bruisers last year that have already paid dividends. TE is checked off (unless we go after Pitts, which is hard to pass on). This draft is also fairly deep at WR with several elite choices, so it was the right move to wait there. And honestly, we might pass on RB despite how bad many of us want Harris or Etienne...they're luxuries that this team may not see as viable.

    The truth of the matter is that we're a 10-win team by getting the first two steps right- the line and the QB. Maybe Tua's not the answer, but if we didn't draft him then it's super hard to get those complimentary pieces in the 2021 draft that we loaded up for.
     
  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Agreed. The 0-4 team that started last season looked to be the worst team I have ever seen. The worst. It wasn't close.

    If you told me then that in 2020 Miami would be 1 game out of the playoffs with a 10-6 record I would have laughed at you until I passed out from laughing so hard at how ridiculous that statement is.
     
  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Clearly not true. Seattle won a SB without a good OL and with a QB that people could see was elite despite a bad OL.

    But even if you leave out exceptions like that, you can't go in with the mentality that you have to build the OL first because you only rarely have a top pick, and that means using it on a QB if you need one. We made the mistake of thinking OL first QB second when we took Long instead of Ryan in 2008. The hand you're dealt (in the draft) has a huge impact on whether you go QB first or OL first, so it's not prudent to think it has to be one or the other.

    That btw is why the argument people here who want to use the #3 pick on a QB has some merit IMO: we won't get the chance to pick this high again given how good our defense is. I just think that doesn't outweigh the massive evidence that you can't look at a QB's rookie year and see how he'll turn out, especially when it's quite clear we have no real offensive weapons.

    Either way, when you take that QB is not something you set in stone. It should be dictated by circumstances. There are many teams that took their QB early and succeeded, and many that took him late after other pieces were in place and succeeded. There's no simple formula for this.
     
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  38. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    We tried that. Remember Jake Long and then Chad Henne? Didn't work out so well. Long was great, but the QBs he was protecting...not so much.
     
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  39. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    If we’re going to use history as the reference point for what’s going to happen going forward, we’ve been a bottom dweller for 15+ years and should just quit playing football.

    You can’t honestly believe that football teams are built from the outside in?

    Look at every super bowl champion over the last 20 years and you’ll see most consistently: QB, defense, OL. If you can’t protect your QB or keep an offense honest by being able to effectively run the ball, it makes everything much harder.
     
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  40. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    That's a ridiculous statement. History is the ONLY thing you can use as a reference point. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get the same result.
     
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