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Ireland: Beck Had More Upside

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Georgia Fin, Aug 31, 2008.

  1. FiN.in.RI

    FiN.in.RI Paul pierced through..

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    Just let people have their opinions and lessen the "talking down" that so many posters here do. It's football! This aint our job or our school! Let us have an any opinion on any thing we want!
     
  2. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    This is certainly true. I am not sure about the reason, but its isn't tolerated to criticize players, however deserving.
     
  3. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    You might have a point if some of those same fans showing excessive love for Beck didn't show extreme and aggressive anger to any other quarterback on the roster.

    While it's true many have come around how many "Henne was a wasted pick!" threads, "McClown" threads or "Chad Pennington the Noodle Arm" threads did we have to suffer through?
     
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  4. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    If you criticize a player with some legitimate reasoning it certainly is tolerated.

    Sorry but many of us just can't take the irrational ramblings of those condemning young players before it's warranted. It's the same knee jerk opinions every year, you just have to change the name of the 1st or second year players getting ripped without any thought to how player development has been PROVEN to work over a long period of time.

    They won't all work out but to ignore the transition process needed for players and for teams to see if they'll ever develop is an ignorant call.
     
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  5. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    McClown is not a valid comparison.

    The guy has had plenty of time and many opportunities to step up and claim the reputation of a solid NFL QB. He's failed every time.

    Pennington is a different story. He's shown himself to be a starter although the weak arm arguments are certainly warranted and you'll hear plenty of NFL analysts say the same. This post just isn't comparable to those magically claiming to know how a developing young player will turn out v.s. QB's who have already established who they are.
     
  6. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I disagree with this assessment. Some posters may make irrational posts but there are some of us that are confident in saying that certain young players just dont have it and dont feel the need to wait for some hope of being wrong. I look for certain attributes with each position. I dont care about production but am looking for signs that they have something special to bring to the game. I defended Ginn, Brown, Soliai when people were trashing them but at the same time every rookie doesnt get that blanket protection from criticism just because they're rookies. I defended Mauia too. Criticism of him, a second year player still making the transition to FB from DL, was somehow seen as acceptable by most. Whose to say he couldnt develop further? At the same time I could understand the criticism and didnt get worked up over it. Teams make bad picks. Trying to identify them is part of being a fan. Its important not to categorize every criticism of one player with similar criticisms of other players. I see nothing in Beck's game that even if he develops to his fullest potential would cause me to think he'll ever be more than a backup. Too small, too nervous and not accurate enough in the deep game to compensate for those shortcomings. I dont feel I need to wait three four years to state that. Now there are people that see the raw tools to make them believe he will succeed. Its simply a difference in perception and what we look for in QBs.
     
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  7. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    thank you. i try :wink2: we have always had good debates that stuck to the facts or perceptions without needing to cross the line into personal attacks. I think that makes a site like this far more enjoyable. Even though periodically, there may be personal digs on this site, overall this site is kept clean of them because of the quality and consideration of the posters and the friendly reminders of the mods when things get a bit touchy. I could probably add 200 posters here if not more that have those same attributes, you being one of them.
     
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  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Without going back and counting, I would guess far fewer than the criticisms of Beck we had to endure. I can completely understand somebody making an assessment of a player that was negative and then stating that opinion at relevant times. But for some reason Beck became the guy where if someone posted something positive like he threw a bunch of passes or he studied a lot, you would have the same people jumping in to those threads and saying something negative. That made every thread that mentioned Beck a nightmare to read. It got to be so bad I stopped coming to this section.
     
  9. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Good point. There is definitely some ignorance on this board.

    And no doubt, some make some knee jerk reactions every year and their opinions aren't based on anything factual.

    I can only speak for myself, but I've been watching football since I was six years old, and I'm 43. I know what I am looking at when I make a determination on a player. Am I always right? Heavens no. Am I right more often than not? Yes.

    But usually no one asks why I don't like a player or coach (I caught the same kind of flak for criticizing Saban in 2006 because I didn't give the "transition process" time--Sadly I was totally vindicated). Once I criticize a player or coach, I am dismissed as ignorant or worse. It just is what it is.

    As for Beck, we'll see who is right. I haven't seen anything to make me think he'll be better than Henne, or for that matter be more than a backup. Some of you think he's the second coming and that's fine too. Time will tell. And in the meantime, I'll just accept the criticism from you and others who don't think my criticism of Beck is valid.
     
  10. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Point taken. I think there was some irrational criticism of Beck.

    But the defenses of Beck (and more to the point, the adulation for him) were also irrational.

    I think many took the criticism of Beck's performances as personal insults. And that is unfortunate, because Beck is fine young man with alot of character.
     
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  11. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Perhaps. But to ignore obvious weaknesses in a player and favoring that player over more talented options at the position is also an ignorant call.

    Not accusing you of that, but we've seen instances of that on this board, and to some extent, still do.
     
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  12. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The biggest problem as I see it, is that too many people consider themsleves experts on teh subject and that they can assess a player right off the bat and therefore their assessment is correct and we should all accept it as gospel. No need to actually watch the development, they saw it with their own eyes. As if their eyes were smarter and saw things clearer than any of us including possibly the coaches. I call it I got some right syndrome. I watch every game on tv there is to watch and now I am an expert.

    Uh, no your not. If you say you are then you define teh phrase legend in your own mind. You are very knowledgeable and in tune and have a deeper knowledge than the casual fan, THATS IT!. I am not saying in the right circumstances with teh right tools, the right mentoring, you couldnt become an expert, but unless you can show those credentials, you arent an expert.

    The argument is basically this, yu have one group that saw Beck and think they know he cant play so they are smarter than anyone else end of dicussion. You have those that think Beck may have potential and can develop, he may not - there are definite concerns that he needs to correct - but with time, he could become a solid starter, and then those that think that Beck will be an elite qb. The eilte Beck group is small, Most "beckers" (The opposite of "beckers" is "Peckers", just flip the "b", so is there anything wrong with labels now?) believe he needs to be given time and with CP and CH we have nothing to lose
     
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  13. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Thank you for illustrating again the Beck bias on this board. What a fair comparison you make here. The people who worry Beck doesn't have what it takes to be a starting QB in this league = self righteous know-it-alls while those that still hold out hope are so fair and balanced, happy go lucky, great optimistic fans.

    :sidelol:

    :pity:
     
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  14. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    ROFL...no doubt!
     
  15. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Thanks brother :hi5:
     
  16. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Unfortunately, we won't. You are right by default and kudos to Cam for that. See, the problem with the Beck criticism is not that it's wrong - he played horrible mostly, he had major ball security issues and he looked overwhelmed. True, every bit of it. But the problem is context; it's been proven time and time again that young QBs - especially young QBs who played out of the shotgun at college - are send to the slaughter when they are put behind a weak offensive line initially. It's a recipe for disaster. Here's a small list: Alex Smith, Charlie Frye, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Akili Smith, Tim Couch. That's a bunch of talented, talented QBs who were run out of town ostensibly because they just didn't have "it". Here's the thing: There just is no "it". "It" is the single most overrated football concept out there. What they didn't have wasn't "it" - it was an offensive line. How often do we have to see young QBs being put behind a weak O-line until we realize that it's never going to work. When Cam threw Beck to the wolves last season he threw his career down the drain in the petty attempt to save his job ("if my handpicked QB looks good, they might let me off the hook").

    I know that Beck had the talent to be a successful NFL QB because I saw him play at college. It's right there on the tape, evident for everyone who bothers watching it. It was there with Alex Smith. It was there with Carr and it was there with Couch. Four talented guys who never had a chance because NFL teams still go for a QB first approach despite being proven wrong again and again. And the most obscene thing is: These FO's are often let off the hook in the public eye ("aw, shucks, he was a bust, nothing much you can do bout it") when in reality they should be grilled for wasting a perfectly good player and a perfectly good draft choice to boot.

    Essentially, the issue I'm having with the ongoing Beck criticism is that it's simply not relevant anymore. It ceased to be relevant when Cam threw the kid to the wolves. End of story then and there. Because if there's one other thing history tells you is that these QBs never resurrect their careers. They are done.
     
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  17. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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  18. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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  19. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    You are dead on when you say a good offensive line makes all the difference in determining a young QB's success in the NFL.

    But I think never is too strong a word to use when predicting whether any of these QBs that struggle in bad systems will resurrect their career. Didn't both Brett Favre and Steve Young struggle early in their careers before turning things around on different teams? And what about Todd Collins last year? When he first came into the league 11 years ago, he was shellshocked. He would curl up in the fetal position at the first sign of pressure behind a weak Buffalo O-line. Last year he was slinging the ball around like a pro-bowler. Maybe just some of these guys are slow learners.

    I do have serious doubts that John Beck will ever be a serviceable QB in the NFL. But I think never is too strong a word for him or any other young QB that struggles at first.
     
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  20. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Yeah, never was somewhat of an intentional hyperbole but let's face it, there are easily ten or twenty Harringtons for every Steve Young. What I don't get in regard to the Beck criticism is where it's coming from. He's played bad? So did Young, since you brought him up. He couldn't hang on to the ball? Young couldn't either. He looked overwhelmed? Young. Took to many sacks? Young again. I honestly don't see how you can expect a 2nd round QB to perform better than a future HoF QB under similar circumstances.
     
  21. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I think it's more the transition from shotgun offense to playing under center that is the major issue QBs like Beck have to overcome. Having a poor offensive line can kill any QBs potential no matter what system they played under in college.

    Beck was a project when he was drafted. The Dolphins front office knew it since they immediately attempted to rework his throwing motion. It's been a failure and I believe the Dolphins as an organization have quit on him for better or worse.

    We also need to hope that Pennington holds up or it might be Henne that's thrown to the wolves this year.
     
  22. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    :lol:

    Oh, so based on this mysterious "IT" factor, not only have you clearly proven Beck's career dead, but you've already crowned Henne a top NFL QB after one camp and preseason.

    Great stuff.

    Could this poster possibly be Tony Kornheiser? The guy who on national television gives the incredibly indepth and insightful analysis of how he can tell a rookie will be successful or a bust based on how he stands on the sideline?
     
  23. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think that's incorrect. Ireland just said they kept him b/c of his upside. A more accurate statement would be that he hasn't been successful yet but they see enough in him to believe that he could be a success in the future. Now we know that Dallas was looking at him and there was at least one report that they offered a 5th but were turned down. It's reasonable to assume that at a minimum the Dolphins believe that Beck will improve enough to increase his value. What level of improvement they expect is anyone's guess but to say they quit on him just seems inaccurate.
     
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  24. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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  25. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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  26. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Good to see you may be on your way to getting some type of clue about player development.

    Yep, in the early stages all you can do is count on the fact that a prospect MIGHT reach his potential. That MIGHT needs to be given time and coaching to see if the player will develop. If you went off half cocked and cut young prospects at every sign of adversity in their growth, you'd end up giving away all your draft picks and end up haivng a team full of overaged vets, a boated salary cap and a losing team.

    I know all these "like minded souls" who understand this are frustrating but were really just here to help.
     
  27. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  28. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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  29. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Impressive isn't it? I can show you how to evaluate players (and coaches) as well as I can, but you have to be able to recognize and accept the truth. I can help you with that, but in the end, its going to be up to you to be honest with yourself.

    Its not hard to be able to tell whether or not a guy can play. Look at his instincts. If they are good, look at his physical skills. If they are good, then look at his intelligence. If thats ok, then look at the coaches. If those are good, and all the other criteria are good, you are going to have a good player. Hence, I can (impressively to you) call that Henne will be good and Beck has a long row to hoe.

    What you can't do (and as you and countless others here have done) is to get emotionally attached to a player. You can't fall in love with John Beck, because love blinds. And since most fans "LOVE" their team, its hard for them to delineate between their support for their team and the performance of the player. And when that happens, you get irrational support for a player, as we have seen with John Beck.

    I have that skill. I don't love players, I don't love coaches. Produce or go away.

    Reefer, I hope this helps. Now, Happy Evaluating!:hi5:
     
  30. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Okay, let me give you some additional help here. You are going to need it until you get the hang of this....

    Let's choose a random player...Uh, say, John Beck. Right away, what jumps out at you, is 1) He lacks good instincts 2) He lacks good dexterity. IOW, he hasn't mastered the basics of QBing in the NFL, like taking the snap from center.

    When looking at a QB, he should be able to 1) take a clean snap without fail 2) set up strongly in a 5-7 step drop 3) Make an authoritative throw downfield.

    Beck can't do any of these things well. Henne does all of these things well.

    You know, I just gave away to you for free what I could probably charge others to learn. Oh well, I am in the giving spirit. I know this is going to help you. And I have confidence that you will be able to overcome your emotional attachment to players and make good, honest evaluations...just like I do. :knucks:
     
  31. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Well clearly you've never been a scout, so let me help you out.

    When assessing a player the evaluator will usually start with the basic physical characteristics for the position. At 6'2" 215 Beck would fit the size requirements for every system in the NFL. He has ok athleticism but is not a threat as a runner.

    He would then assess his ability as a passer. He would note that Beck has above average accuracy, above average arm strength and a very fast release. He would note that Beck is having trouble with taking the snap from center and throwing the ball on time after the center snap. He might also point out that his mechanics are good but not a true over the top release. When pressured he has a tendency to throw off his back foot and not fully rotate his torso.

    He would look at the mental make-up of the player. He would note that Beck has high intelligence and a strong work ethic. He doesn't pull the trigger on the field. He may be waiting for the WR to be open before throwing it. Seems to lack anticipation. He does a good job of going through his progressions and manipulating the S. He doesn't seem to show enough confidence in the huddle or in the pocket.

    The evaluator would then look at the weaknesses and see if they are things that could be learned. He would note that this is his second playbook in two seasons and that when he stayed in an offense for an extended period in college he excelled. He would look at the Cincy game from last year and would note that Beck did show anticipation and more confidence in the huddle and in the pocket. He would note that Beck played in a primarily shotgun offense in college. And if the evaluator had watched the NFL for more than a season or two he would know that shotgun QBs usually struggle with the transition to being under center in the NFL.

    He would probably conclude that Beck has superlative passing skills but may take some time to adjust to being under center. And though it may take time Beck seems to have the intelligence and dedication to successfully work through his mental adjustments.
     
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  32. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL there ya go again expert!

    Show my post where I said Beck is great? Can you? Nope I never said he was or would be. Have you stated as fact Beck would never be a starting qb?

    Having doubts is one thing, that is a fair assessment, it is also an insult to my intelligence if you think turning the argument into something its not makes you the objective one. I never argued Beck will bve great, only that 4 games is not enough to judge normally, much less in our circumstance. I also nor most have not said there arent issues with Beck, we just AGAIN said he should be afforded more than 1 horrid season to see if he can develop. AGAIN it is people like you that say I have seen enough so incredulously they should have cut him but they kept him, so they must have a plan to dispose of him otherwise you may be wrong and that couldnt be could it? If you really want I will find a post where you stated a fact that was clearly opinion and sold it as fact as if you were teh guru. Want me to? Again find my post where I said Beck was a franchise qb? You cant cause I didnt.

    So go ahead and do your ah shucks sarcastic runaround instead of actually disputing the post.
     
  33. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Calling me an expert? First off I thought we were moving away from labels, but thanks anyway. Second - wow, this post is so full of circular arguing and typos I don't even know where to start or if I even have any idea the point you are trying to make that I'm supposed to actually dispute.

    Oh yes please do find a post where I made myself out to be a QB guru and stated as if it were fact that John Beck would never be a starting QB. I bet you'll conveniently leave off the part I always added stating "I hope he proves me wrong!!"

    And before you go digging, you might want to carefully study one of my more recent posts (my first post in this thread actually) where I clearly point out that I'm HAPPY Beck was retained. Here it is -

     
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  34. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok herein where we admit we could be wrong, I may have mistaken you for someone elses posts after reading that quote.

    But the point I was making still stands. We who think Beck should not be discarded and have stood up for Beck are labeled Beckers. Some like Adam in this thread have said they dont need to give beck a chance, they have seen enough.

    It is this Beck bias that bugs me, what Beck bias? Desides who I believe everyone know s is a Beck fan has praised henne in p[reseason, Aqua 4 ever same thing. I am in Henne camp firmly, I believe the poise and confidence he displayed and how quick he shook off adversity as a rookie sold me. But I will still defend Beck, still belive he can become a solid qb in this league and hate being labeled as bias because of it.

    So if you didnt say that Beck was done and admittedly may have lumped you in erroneously, I apologize for accusing. I just was responding simply to me being labeled. The sarcastic point in all of this is as Metallica says "..you label me, I'll label you". We just cant disagree and discuss it is always seemingly an I have to be right scenario and if someone disagrees then what does that person know.
     
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  35. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Ooops. You're fired. You just made the FIRST and MOST COMMON mistake in judging a player. You made "measurables" your first priority. Thats why Zach Thomas slid to the fifth round.

    Let me help you just like I helped Reefer....Instincts first, amigo. Instincts first. I don't care what kind of prototype size a player has, how fast he can run and how much he can lift, if he doesn't have instincts, he isn't worth a damn.

    So, consider it a gift from me to you. You are now on your way to better evaluating players. :knucks:
     
  36. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I don't think we disagree nearly as much as we both originally thought.

    My point is that there are extremes on both sides, and I don't think either side should be labeled as irrational or a know-it-all. There are fans of Beck who are still his fans. We should all be a fan of his since he is still on this team. There are some who are doubtful he has the tools necessary to be a starting QB in this league. They might be wrong, but most admit that nothing is certain.

    But I think most can agree having Beck still a Dolphin is not a bad thing for this team. Whether it to be a back up, or provide competition for Chad Henne or any other QB on the roster.
    :hi5:
     
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  37. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Each organization will rate the importance of different attributes according to their own criteria but they all list the measurables first. The fact that you misunderstood that shows how little you know about evaluation (that and of course the criteria you listed in your evaluation).
     
  38. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    LMAO....

    You change you story more than a 6 month old with the runs gets his diapers changed.

    Your arguments are all over the place in a desperate attempt to make something sound solid and you don't even realize you contradict yourself.

    Bottom line is that you're making statements on young prospects that no respected personnel people would make. Again, if teams in the NFL followed your mentality there'd never be any development periods and some real talent would ignorantly be thrown to the wayside every draft.

    OR......

    You're really that talented. A mensa of scouting talent.
    If so, I don't know why you're wasting time blessing us with these magical nuggets of talent evaluation.

    If I were you I'd march right down to Dolphins HQ in Davie and let the pro's in on your talent. Just let me know when the interview is so I can share in the laugh as you explain your theories to Ireland and Parcells.
     
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  39. calphin

    calphin deadly at 250 yards!!


    Thanks for the laugh, I really needed it.:lol::lol::lol:
     
  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I might be mistaken here, but the reason Zach slid to the 5th round is because all the teams, you know, the NFL, judge measurables first. 150 times or so. If you're arguing that all NFL teams are wrong, well go right on ahead.
     
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