Pats Owner Robert Kraft charged in Prostitution sting in South Florida

IMO it would be a step. I think it's naive to believe we can ever eliminate the world's oldest profession by making it illegal. Like Prohibition proved, making something illegal that people want to and will do anyways will just push it into the shadows. The better choice it is to have it out in the open. Tax it, establish work place standards, etc. This gives the current victims choice and power and gives law enforcement more effective means to monitor, prosecute and eventually weed out the bad actors.

 

That's only you're opinion and your morals being placed on others. I can't pretend to know what every woman thinks, but I know enough to recognize that different women will have different opinions. And I would never be so presumptuous as to claim that I am going to decide for them what they can and can't do or what makes them happy or miserable.

 

I'm not basing anything on morals. And I stand by my "No woman in her right mind..." comment.

Some dudes like to have their nuts stomped on. They get off on the pain. Some people like to eat **** straight from the tap. Some women shove sea creatures inside of themselves....Something is wrong with these people. Of course there may be a few exceptions to this rule, as there are with everything in life, but my point still stands. No woman in her right mind enjoys being a prostitute. They do it out of necessity or they are forced. It's like the mentally ill homeless person who claims that he loves the freedom of living on the streets. BS...he's got mental problems.

 

That is the worst comparison I have seen

Obviously a moral judgement.

 

Just a friendly warning... let's not wander too far.

 

Two things. One, you're not a woman and even if you were, you would still be telling them what every other woman should think. Two, unilaterally deciding that something must be wrong with people who enjoy something different than you is you imposing your beliefs.

I was a loan officer at one point and did some loans for a couple of women who worked in brothels. After completing that first difficult loan, others contacted me seeing if they could do the same so I met several brothel workers. My impression was that these women were there for varied reasons. Some were doing it temporarily and some had been doing it for a decade or more. Some had outside businesses or other sources of income and were not doing it out of financial necessity. These were legal, regulated brothels so this was not a slavery thing. None of the ones I spoke with felt they had no other options. All of the ones I met had at some point had normal office or sales jobs and felt they could still if they wanted. They simply made the decision that working in a brothel was better for them for whatever reason. Usually it was a combination of financial, flexibility and enjoying the work more. If any of them had any mental issues, I didn't see them as any worse or more pronounced than what I see in the typical office.

 

So because I'm not a woman I can't put myself in their shoes nor can I read about the countless stories of women who were forced into, or had no other choice other than to work in, prostitution? And let me guess, you're a woman so you can speak freely about your anecdotal evidence? lol

OK


No woman in their right mind enjoys being a prostitute and if given the opportunity would choose another line of work. And men who pay them are one step above, and sometimes right in line with, a rapist.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/...-kraft-charges.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

"Patriots owner Robert K. Kraft’s arraignment on charges of soliciting prostitution has been moved a day later, to March 28, court papers said on Thursday, and will no longer overlap with the N.F.L. annual meetings.

Despite an all-capital warning on the document saying, “The defendant must be present at this hearing,” a spokeswoman for the Palm Beach County clerk’s office clarified that Mr. Kraft could still be represented at the hearing by his lawyers.

Lawyers with experience representing clients in these kinds of cases in Palm Beach County, Fla., said that the “Notice of Hearing” document is considered a form letter and that lawyers represent most defendants at these hearings. Lawyers for Mr. Kraft did not immediately return calls seeking comment, but said in a statement to The Boston Globe that he would not appear at the hearing.

The arraignment was originally scheduled for March 27, the final day of the league meetings in Phoenix. The hearing will be at a satellite court in Palm Beach Gardens, Fla., not the main courthouse in downtown West Palm Beach.

Mr. Kraft faces two first-degree misdemeanor charges, which include a penalty of up to one year in jail. He has pleaded not guilty and denies any criminal activity. The police say they have video of Mr. Kraft engaging in sex acts for money in two visits to a strip-mall massage parlor in Jupiter, Fla."

"Though the case is a minor one by legal standards, Mr. Kraft has spared no expense, bringing in sought-after lawyers, including William A. Burck, who worked in the George W. Bush White House, and Jack Goldberger, who defended Jeffrey E. Epstein, the New York financier accused of trafficking underage girls for sex.

A vigorous defense is unusual for a case of this kind. Most defendants take a plea deal, pay a fine and complete community service. They can later petition the court to expunge their record.

Legals experts say that bringing in high-powered lawyers, especially ones from out of state, is unnecessary in misdemeanor cases like the one that Mr. Kraft is fighting. It is often more effective, they say, to hire lawyers who are familiar with state court judges and state attorneys, who are elected in Florida.

“The problem with Kraft is the problem with famous people, which is they think if you bring in famous attorneys, they’ll do a better job,” said Hugh Culverhouse Jr., the son of the former owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and a former prosecutor now in private practice. “In Florida, you don’t walk into state court with an out-of-town attorney. Who are you trying to impress?”

Last week, Dave Aronberg, the state attorney overseeing the cases in Palm Beach County, said that all defendants would be treated equally, regardless of their wealth or fame.

“Our office treats everyone the same, whether you have a lot of money or are indigent,” Mr. Aronberg said last week. “No one gets special treatment in Palm Beach County.”

Mr. Aronberg, a former assistant attorney general and a Florida state senator, is a Democrat who ran unopposed when he was re-elected in 2016."

 

I'm not a woman. I'm also not the one saying that all women must think like I do or they're not in their right mind.
The bottom line is you're deciding what other people should think and anybody who doesn't think like you do has something wrong with them.

And I'm saying that in a place where prostitution is legal and regulated you have fewer people who are forced into it. I simply believe that people should be free to make their own choices and consenting adults can decide to do whatever they want together (within the obvious constraints of crimes like murder, etc,.) regardless of whether or not it's something you believe people should enjoy.

 

I'm not sure if you're throwing out red herrings or building a straw man.

What makes you think that I'm speaking for all women and what makes you think I'm giving an opinion? What I'm writing isn't my opinion. A little research, instead of anecdotal experiences, will go a long way. And like I wrote earlier, there are exceptions to every rule. Like how some guys like to get kicked in the nuts for fun. Some people think heroin is AWESOME and will tell you that they love it and are happy to be addicted to it. And just like those people are mentally messed up, so are those women who "enjoy" selling their bodies.

 

How is saying that any women who chooses to do something is messed up in the head, not an opinion? My whole point is that it's not up to you or I what somebody else wants to do as long as they aren't hurting somebody. That's not a red herring or a straw man. I just don't want you or the government telling people what they can't do b/c it doesn't work. People will engage in what many call sinful behavior, but making it illegal doesn't make it go away. It just makes it more dangerous for those involved. That's what happened with prohibition. People still did it, but it became the domain of organized crime. With prostitution, the same thing happens. It will always exist. It can either be something that is run by pimps and sex slavery rings or it can be something that is regulated and taxed.

 

It's not an opinion because all the evidence from any study on this topic shows that what I've written is a fact.

Prostitution hurts people. You keep bringing up things like morals and sin, not me, yet you claim I'm basing these facts on morals. That's called a straw man.

 

That is the text book definition of strawman

 

But it will always exist. Making it illegal solves nothing. Therefore, the only option is to make it hurt as few people as possible.

 

lol...No it's not.

 

So will murder. Should we make that legal, too? Hell, while we're at it, racism will always be around. Let's embrace it. lol

These are the findings of a great study on the affects of legalizing prostitution:

• Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
• The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.
• Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.
• The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.
• Democracies have a higher probability of increased human-trafficking inflows than non-democratic countries. There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065


Yeah, I think I'll stick on the side NOT creating more sex slaves.

 

And if that study is too long for some to read, here is the abstract:

Abstract
This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

 

I can't speak to what happens in other areas. But I know for a fact that women in my area leave and go back to the industry all the time. That couldn't happen if they were trapped in a human trafficking ring. The financials I looked at showed women who had varied jobs, did other things. I didn't always agree with their choices, but they were their choices.

 

Again, anecdotal evidence means nothing. Ive ready stated that some women may "choose" to be prostitutes in the same way some men like to have their testicles smashed with high heels. They are messed up mentally.

Legalizing prostitution increases sex trafficking. Men who pay for sex are one step above rapists and sometimes just as bad as a rapist.

 

That is just judgemental and unproven.

 

Which part?
Both?

1. Sexual Masochism Disorder.---Look it up...Mental disorder

2. "My enlightenment arose from learning about the data around prostitution—that a majority of adults in the life entered as teenagers, that a majority of those prostituted have had a history of sexual violence, neglect, or abuse, and that most often participation is seen as the last viable means of survival."

"I learned that when laws legalize prostitution, as is the case of some parts of the U.S. (Nevada), the Netherlands, and other countries, it doesn’t help the health of those in the trade, rather, it leads to an increase in trafficking, especially that of underage girls, a drop in the age of first entry, and an increase in violence against women—not only those in the sex trade but also against those in the communities surrounding it."

"Women and girls entering prostitution are most often there because they see it as a pathway to survival or they are there because of abuse of authority (e.g. pimp). The presence of a history of child abuse, neglect, and trauma impact the brain and body too and that can lead to distorted views of self and others, avoidance, and even cognitive changes. An example of this was brought to light from the work Vednita Carter who is the founder and executive director of Breaking Free.

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Vednita works with women and girls in the sex trade who come to her organization for many reasons, court ordered or otherwise. She often hears them tell her how much they "love the life" and their complete lack of interest in leaving.

When she asks them what they like about it, answers range from “love the clothes,” “love my boyfriend (i.e. pimp),” “like having some money,” etc. She stops them and says, “wait a minute, I want to hear what you like about prostitution, the sex acts that you do to get all those things. I want to know what you like about 10 to 15 men ejaculating on you every day, anywhere they want, whenever they want. Or if you live in Thailand, 40 men a day doing the same. I want to know about the sex act—what do you like about that?”

She always gets the same answer—dead silence."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...201504/getting-enlightened-about-prostitution



Women who claim to "like" being prostitutes are messed up mentally. There is no judgement on my part. I've given nothing but facts.


Men who use prostitutes are taking advantage of women and are basically, and in some instances actually, raping them.

 

Dude...I know a bunch of girls who want prostitution to be legal because it's literally the easiest way for them to make good money.

If a woman has been trafficked she should be helped. If she doesnt want to do it she shouldnt be forced....but do t act like a large majority of the people doing it arent willing because they are generally.

 

I'm not acting like anything. Have you read anything I've posted? It's provably false that the majority of women doing it are "willing". Legalizing prostitution increases sex trafficking and hurts women. I'm using credible research, studies, and facts.

Again, men who pay women for sex are no better than a rapist.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...a-prosecutors-offer-plea-deal-to-robert-kraft

"FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- Florida prosecutors have offered a plea deal to New England Patriotsowner Robert Kraft and other men charged with paying for illicit sex at a massage parlor.

The Palm Beach State Attorney confirmed Tuesday it has offered Kraft and 24 other men charged with soliciting prostitution the standard diversion program offered to first-time offenders.

Spokesman Mike Edmondon said the men must concede they would be found guilty, perform 100 hours community service, attend a class on the dangers of prostitution and pay $5,000 per count. Kraft was charged with two counts last month.

In return, the charges of misdemeanor soliciting prostitution would be dropped. Edmondson said none have accepted so far.

Kraft's attorney Jack Goldberger did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

Copyright by The 2019 Associated Press"

 

"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/sports/robert-kraft-plea-deal-charges.html

Patriots Owner Robert Kraft Offered a Deal That Would Drop Charges

By Ken Belson

March 19, 2019

Robert K. Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots, has been offered a deal that includes paying a fine and doing community service in return for admitting that if his soliciting prostitution case were to go to trial, the prosecutors would win.

The prosecutors in Palm Beach County, Fla., offered the deal to Mr. Kraft and 24 other men who last month were arrested on misdemeanor charges of buying sex at the Orchids of Asia day spa in Jupiter, Fla.

The police and prosecutors say the massage parlor is the focus of a wider investigation into human sex trafficking in several counties in Florida. Mr. Kraft — who faces two misdemeanor counts — and the other 24 men have been charged only with soliciting prostitution; they have not been charged with any crimes in connection to sex trafficking.

News of the plea offer was first reported in The Wall Street Journal.

The investigation into sex trafficking is still continuing, said Mike Edmondson, a spokesman for the state attorney’s office in Palm Beach County.

the state attorney for Palm Beach County, said on Twitter that “the offer of a deferred prosecution agreement with several conditions to first-time offenders is standard in cases like this.”

Mr. Kraft pleaded not guilty. He is scheduled to appear in front of a judge on March 28, though he may be represented by his lawyer.

As a first-time offender with no criminal record, Mr. Kraft is unlikely to spend any time in jail.

Misdemeanors for soliciting prostitution rarely generate headlines. But the involvement of one of the most powerful owners in the N.F.L. has turned what was a local story into an international spectacle. It has also shined a light on the problem of human sex trafficking, even though Mr. Kraft has not been accused of any involvement in that part of the investigation.

Some lawmakers in Washington, including Senator Edward J. Markey of Massachusetts, said they intended to take the campaign donations they received from Mr. Kraft, as well as John W. Childs, another billionaire facing similar misdemeanor charges, and donate the money to groups focused on ending human trafficking, according to The Boston Globe.


Survivors of sexual exploitation are also planning to send a letter to the N.F.L. before the league’s annual meeting next week in Phoenix. In the letter, several dozen organizations and advocates against sexual exploitation will ask the N.F.L. to bar Mr. Kraft from owning his team.

That would be a drastic step for the N.F.L. to take. The league’s constitution gives Commissioner Roger Goodell broad powers to fine or suspend owners for conduct deemed detrimental to the league. In the past, owners have been fined $500,000 or more, and been suspended for as long as a year. Most of those cases have involved felony charges, not misdemeanors."