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Surprising Incognito News

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I disagree. Tillman did sacrifice everything. Kaep, not so much.

    I also disagree that what Nike is doing with Kaep is somehow wrong or bad. I own many things made by Nike. I won't be burning them and I will most likely keep purchasing their clothing. I will also not dislike a player or stop watching the NFL over kneeling. If the NFL doesn't have a problem with it then players can do what they want.
     
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  2. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    The actions Mr. Tillman took when he voluntarily left the NFL to join the armed forces say more than any hanger-on's words can. Its those actions that will be remembered and honored by his fans and patriotic Americans for decades while that self promoting former QB will just be an ugly footnote in NFL history.
     
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  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    His family doesn't agree.

    Tillman's sacrifice is cheapened when used as a counter point
     
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  4. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    His family doesn't agree that he made a sacrifice?
     
  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    His family doesn't agree with using his memory as a counter point to Kaep.
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Tillman's sacrifice deserves to be celebrated.
    It should be celebrated as well.
     
  7. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    We should respect their wishes. But it is a great illustration of what real sacrifice is, what was a top level NFL player WILLFULLY gave up and provides a stark reality of how Kap's intentional disrespect dishonors people who make real sacrifices. While I understand you see no dishonor in it, that doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong in their emotional reaction to his intentional disrespect. Not buying a beer or wearing a shirt. But INTENTIONALLY saying FU to this country. It's all about the intent to me. You're entitled to your opinion even if you are wrong.
     
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  8. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    As well???? Like Kap intentionally made a sacrifice and you put them on the same level. Goes to show what your thought process is if you think they're the same.
     
  9. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Kaep can’t play, that’s the reason he washed out of the league. Kenny Stills has been kneeling like an idiot for two years and he’s still a highly paid starter in the league.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Using Tillman as a counter point to Kaep is a huge FU to this country.
     
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  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Since when did "as well" mean "same level"
    It is like you are just trying to be offended
     
  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I get that his family doesn't want him to be used as a political pawn. He's still an example of sacrifice while Kaep is not.
     
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  13. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I’m not offended. You have an opinion and I have an opinion. Words are important. Your word choice of “as well” wasn’t very precise.
     
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  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I agree with most of your post, Fin.

    The part I disagree with is that Kaep has somehow shown me, a combat vet, disrespect. Whenever I see someone protesting, my chest swells because I know that my brothers who died in Afghanistan didn't die in vain. Yes, I realize that Afghanistan isn't Nazi Germany, but make no mistake, if not for my fellow service members dying over there, my fellow American's may very well die over here.

    I've been watching the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings the last 2 days. Over 100 people stood up and threw fits during these hearings. Are they idiots? Yes. Are they practicing something that the U.S. Constitution has afforded them via the military? Yes.

    Kaep, Stills, or any of the other NFL players who kneel during the anthem don't bother me.

    However, I also respect your opinion that it's a slight against America's military. I understand the argument.

    Isn't it great that you, nor I, nor Kaep...will end up ion jail or worse due to our opinions?
     
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  15. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Kap not shown anyone disrespect. That's just a made up narrative that you willfully choose to insert on the top of everything. It's a you problem, not a him problem. Sorry. You can be mad, but it's because you want to be mad.

    Also, people are seriously still proclaiming he "washed out" and couldn't play in a league that still employs Joe Webb and Blaine Gabbert? ****s sake. Kap is going to win the collusion suit and make some people look silly for this ****.
     
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  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    There's not a chance in hell he wins the collusion suit. Unless he can show where he was specifically talked about at a league meeting and someone said, "Let's all agree to never hire this guy," then it's not collusion. Remember, coaches and teams are free to share their opinions...its not illegal to say "I don't like him" or "we wouldn't hire him back". That's why the burden is on Kaep's legal team and I just don't see how they get even close to having an actual case.

    Honestly, I'm thinking the only reason this got filed in the first place is because Kaep's being billed by the hour. If there was even a slight chance that his team could win, the NFL would have settled in a heartbeat.
     
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  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    You can't possibly know what people are offended or disrespected by. If people can get offended by the Rebel Flag then others can most certainly be offended by a person kneeling during the anthem. I know black guys who proudly fly a Rebel flag on their trucks. Isn't it reasonable to think that not everybody who fly's that flag is "racist" and instead have other reasons to fly it. To some people, kneeling during the anthem is a sign of disrespect. Even if the intent is to raise awareness for something and the person kneeling loves the country.

    I wouldn't be offended by either, but that's me.

    Bottom line, actions cause perceptions. People are different and will perceive differently. I do not think Kaep's intent is to disrespect the country or the military. Some people do and I'm OK with that. I don't agree with it, but I'm OK with it.

    As for Kaep, he was benched before this started. Is he better than the QB's you mentioned? I think so. Is he so much better that he'd be worth the headache and disruption he'd bring to the team? I don't think so.

    As for the collusion lawsuit. I seriously doubt he wins that.
     
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  18. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Much ado about nothing, whoops, I meant no-one!
     
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's what gets me though- most "protesters" who feel offended are often 10x worse than the person or group that they're protesting. People assume that because they don't like something, they can openly attack, berate, and slander others in their crusade for "awareness"...all that does though is create more hate on both sides.

    Kaep's protests are the perfect example- he's never threatened anyone or even said much publicly about his cause. He's also said that he doesn't expect other athletes to join him in kneeling because he doesn't want them to jeopardize their careers. As far as protests go, you can't get much more peaceful. Yet you have people boycotting the NFL, making threats and all kinds of stuff to escalate the situation.

    But then you have the flip side- the people who feel affected by racial inequality. They see one courageous person stepping up peacefully and all these off the wall hateful comments...and guess what, that pushes the divide even further. All this hate and arguing could have been avoided by talking about inner city problems and validating Kaep's concerns....which we all know are real. Instead though, people blow it off, take offense to a black athlete wanting better treatment of black people, and we get what we have today.....this MASSIVE divide where everyone is on one side of the fence or the other. And because of that, literally everyone loses.

    Who's fault is it really though? It's your fault. It's my fault. It's everyone's fault that didn't stop for two seconds to consider that some people have disadvantages in this world because of society. These are issues that can be solved once and for all, but we'll never get there with blatant racism being called patriotism or something more clever.

    And before someone says that they're not racist, then answer me this- why aren't we protesting JJ Watt as hard as we're protesting Kaep? Watt raised over 20 million for Katrina victims with almost the exact same message as Kaepernick- people in a certain area are in trouble and we need to raise awareness to change things. It was practically the same thing- yet we celebrate one man's incredible accomplishments and violently bash the other. Why?
     
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  20. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    More than anyone: the media.

    A pro football player taking a knee during the anthem in and of itself shouldn't be a newsworthy event. But in this day and age of the media publicizing all kinds of "my feelings were hurt too!" sentiments (i.e., the reaction to Kap), stuff can snowball out of proportion. And they've made a conscious decision to do that (business decision), so that's where I'd put most of the blame.

    Worse, all the attention Kap got isn't helping to solve any of the underlying problems. If anything it's just creating more problems, at least on the surface. The true resolution to this issue is to simply wait for the next media distraction that causes people to forget about this one.
     
  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree and its incredibly frustrating. That's the business model that the internet brought to the 21st century though- clicks mean dollars for the media and any shred of integrity has been thrown out the window.

    I am all for free speech but I think disingenuous reporting should be criminal. When you print a story that leads to violence, riots, etc. then you belong in a courtroom as a conspirator for all the fallout. I'll never forget watching the Rodney King trials as a kid and hearing the media say, "If the cops are found innocent, we think the black people are going to riot and burn down the city." And then they did. How is that not considered inciting a riot?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  22. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    This will not end well. He doesn't seem like the type to reach out for help.

    The likelyhood of this ending in him hurting someone before he is finally institutionalized is a very scary thought.
     
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  23. rackhound

    rackhound Well-Known Member

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    JJ Watt did something that made a difference. Kapp has only caused more divide and the cops as pigs socks made it worse....I don't think the two things can be compared. Kapp could actually do something other than kneel to help but hasn't.....Its his right to do what he did, and I don't like the kneeling thing, but I'm not offended either. I just don't agree with the way they are choosing to protest and don't think they are helping anything by doing it. Honestly at this point I think its more a trump protest because he put himself in the middle of it, than a racial inequality protest. Like Cbrad said earlier the Media has made this bigger than it would be otherwise.
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    But that's the thing- you don't have the right to say how someone can protest how they feel about something....none of us do. I do agree with you that he could have done it much more effectively, but that's not our call to make. He took something personal to him and did what he thought was right- that's all I meant by comparing him to Watt. They both had the same intention though- Kaep TRIED to make a difference as well.

    For the record, I don't agree with a lot of what he said or what he did. But I do think it's his right to feel how he feels and to share his opinion. That's what this country is based on and if we say he shouldn't be able to express himself, then civil liberties start going out the window.
     
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  25. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Nike online sales have risen 31 percent since the Kapernick Nike ad was first shown on television.
    The fact is, he has far more support than he does non supporters. It is only the right wingers who believe in certain freedoms as long as you agree with them.

    I served in the military during the Vietnam War and I did so because I thought I was defending the rights of every American to stand up for what they believe in. I understand those who are offended by Kapernick kneeling but according to the Constitution, he had every right to do so.

    I certainly have a lot more respect for Kapernick than I do for the individual in the WH who used five deferments to avoid serving his country during the Vietnam war.
     
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  26. rackhound

    rackhound Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that he has the right to protest how he wants....That's what makes America great. I don't have to agree with the way he did it to agree he has the right to do it. It bothers me more what it has turned into than the actual act of doing it. to me if it were all about the protest when it became something that was obviously dividing people and not helping the cause, then there should have been talks about the cause, and a different way found to support that cause or at least a discussion about it......Instead more people started doing it and it became political and heels were dug in on both sides.....It seems counter productive and not about what it was supposed to be originally intended for.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, unfortunately that happens with a lot of stuff. A lot of that is the media though and the way they twist things- did you know Kaep kneeled for a solid month before anyone even noticed? LOL, it was so freaking disrespectful that it took people four total games to even realize it and ask why he was taking a knee. To me it's almost comical.

    But the way it was handled was worse than the protest itself. The NFL didn't want to side with Kaep because that meant any player could protest anything whenever they felt like it...that message couldn't be sent! When people started protesting the protests though, they should have stepped up one way or the other. I mean, give players the first minute of any post-game interview to express their views....what does it hurt? Then Kaep wouldn't have to take a knee to raise awareness. But they were too scared of the consequences from sponsors, etc. to do something like that.

    It's honestly the NFL's fault more than anything....things didn't have to spiral this far out of control.
     
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  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Wow how is this still going. :huh:

    I didn't say that I know what people can be disrespected by. People can be disrespected by literally anything. That makes just saying "I'm disrespected" a relatively meaningless assertion on it's own. Its a 'you' (in a generic sense) problem. I can tell you I am offended by people wearing cargo shorts. Nobody would give a ****, that would be a me problem.

    This is a highly political group of people (let's face it, it's conservatives) who have deliberately chosen to misrepresent a protest to make it about them and their feelings. That is the bottom line. Not a bunch of (again, let's face it) largely white conservatives deciding - wrongly - it's about the troops. Nothing to do with that at all.

    Trying to bring in a false equivalency with the rebel flag is asinine. Literally slavery propagating traitors to the nation. No standing for that at all. Good way to tell which people to avoid. Also, nice "I have black friends" argument. :001_rolleyes:

    As for the lawsuit, nobody can say for sure, but c'mon, it's blatantly obvious he was blackballed. I know that he has to bring more evidence than just "Christian Hackenberg was signed by 3 teams" but there will be something. He was blackballed, it was obvious and clear and will come out. Just as a reminder, Bill Barnwell did a statistical analysis and found that 0 QB's - ever - who posted numbers in Kap's ballpark never got another chance. And yes, you can make the "distraction" argument, it's valid. But this is a league that was going to give Ray Rice another shot until video came out. It still treats Adrian Peterson like a hero after finding out he just about whipped his kid's nuts off. Distractions are a dime a dozen.


    Nope. https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/31/...organizations-million-dollar-pledge-10-for-10

    He has put quite a bit of money where his mouth is. And that doesn't even count lost earnings.

    Have to disagree. It's bringing forth issues with policing and racism into daylight. The fact that it has become contentious doesn't change that, nor does it change the fact that those problems existed and continue to do so. Just ignoring it or hoping for the best wasn't helping. Making people face ugly things may in the short term be rough, but long term can bring real and positive change.

    Blaming the media is an easy copout. It is also wrongly insinuates via use of the word "blame" that someone is in the wrong for making this a story. Of course they are going to report it. And as national attention started swirling, of course they would expand the story. It's news.

    Wow, actually back to the original topic! :up: This is probably the most accurate description. Little doubt that he would try to "tough it out" or something. He is pretty clearly veering into very unstable territory on top of his original issues of just being a gigantic enabled asswipe. Perhaps CTE is playing a role, or just mental illness of some type, but hopefully he gets help.
     
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  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Wishful thinking. Look at the evidence. It's been 2 years now since Kap started his protest. What's the result? Nothing. Or at least nothing Kap wanted. I mean something significant should have happened by now regarding racism or police brutality. But nothing.

    Why? Because of HOW Kap protested. People aren't talking about racism or police brutality when they talk about Kap as much as disrespecting the flag (whatever your stance is on that). Kap blew it. This isn't how you go about making the kind of change he wanted.

    Anyway, we'll see what happens "long term". Thing is.. we can always keep saying not enough time as passed, so maybe it's worth repeating that famous quote from a famous economist: "In the long run we're all dead".
     
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  30. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    ^^^^^ B I N G O
     
  31. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    How do you justify the statistics that have unarmed white ppl being shot by police at nearly a 3-1 higher rate?

    "but but we have 78% of the population white and 13% black"......well you also have that 13% responsible for over 50% of the murders in this country, and an even higher percentage in violent crime activity as a whole.

    I'm sure CBrad has a nice math equation for this, however I don't think it's going to end up a big enough discrepancy to justify the hyperbolic social media rhetoric that is telling everyone that cops hate and kill black people. That's some CNN Don Lemon BS that promotes what that side (let's face it Libby's) wants to sell. A Victim mentality.

    Listen, I think and have always thought that by and large cops abuse their power. I think training is a HUGE issue, but holy hell has the media spun this into some hyperbolic nonsense.

    Yes, CB is 110% correct. The media has taken this and created a big ****ing mess.

    In short?

    - I'm okay with any peaceful protest, I see no issue with his actions kneeling. It's not disrespectful to the military.

    - The "reasons" he gave for doing this, is hyperbolic and far from reality. It's 2018, no race of people are oppressed. Grow the **** up.

    - He was a bad QB at the end, but certainly good enough to be on a roster. He hasn't been signed and its not racism, it is quite simply that NFL teams do not like distractions and the media (yep those guy's again) would create a locker room circus if he were signed as a backup QB. Again, Kenny Stills has been doing it and got a contract extension and will be our #1 Wr this year. It's simple math on why CK doesn't work in the NFL anymore.....don't over-think it.
     
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah, crime stats are a mixed bag. You can pick and choose stats you like to support different views, and not all is anti-black or anti-minority. For example, for many crimes the probability of arrest given that a crime was committed is higher for whites than for blacks:
    https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/81/4/1381/2234598?redirectedFrom=fulltext
    On the other hand, blacks tend to get 10% longer sentences for the same crime than whites:
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1985377
    That's the kind of statistic Kap should have focused on. It's measurable and you can see whether the protest has the desired effect. It's important to not just make noise but to be able to measure outcomes.
     
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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I've said all along, I don't think we'd have this massive media circus if Kap had been organizing events/protests on his days off. I think using air time paid for by other people while at his "job" is what most people are at odds with.
     
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  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Although the same crime may be involved, there may be other factors at work too, other than potential racism. Could be first offense vs not, could be having other offenses on the record, etc.

    Rarely are these things just cut and dried.
     
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  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the public has any clue how tough or dangerous it is. Criminals will do whatever they can to get away with their crimes and police officers have to prepare every day for the possibility that they won't make it home to their families. For instance, my wife's cousin is a cop and he was called to Wal Mart last week for a shoplifter- a 15 year old black male. The kid's first response was to punch the officer in the face and try to run for it, and they ended up going to the ground as the cop tried to hold onto the kid while waiting for backup. Meanwhile, the kid's mother was screaming bloody murder that "the white officer was trying to kill her black baby," and a crowd of people started gathering. Time was not on his side since the potential for serious violence was escalating by the second.

    For anyone who thinks most cops are dirty, corrupt, out to get the black man, etc...put yourself in this EXACT position. What do you do?

    - Do you become fearful that you're about to be attacked and just let the kid go?
    - Do you tase the kid...or the mother...for ignoring direct, lawful orders?
    - Do you draw your pistol and order the crowd to back off?
    - Do you go on the offense and beat the kid resisting? After all, he is swinging at you and you'd be lawfully just defending yourself...

    My wife's cousin didn't do any of that. He fell to his back and got the kid in a headlock, all the while ordering others to back off. His backup finally arrived...it only took them 90 seconds to respond but that's an absolute eternity when you're the officer on the ground...and they finally got the shoplifter in handcuffs. Meanwhile, the cousin/cop had a busted lip, a bruise on his cheek an a bloody elbow. He easily could have been killed though over a simple crime that should have been a simple arrest.

    And here's the thing- should the cousin handle the next shoplifting call any differently? Do you think he'd be just a little quicker to pull that firearm or a little less patient when a bystander is ordering the crowd to stop the cop? Because until you walk in those shoes and realize that criminals will do whatever they can to avoid being arrested, it's unfair to say there's bad cops out there. And don't get me wrong, there are definitely some horrible, highly corrupt officers....but most of them also got that way from doing their jobs and realizing that they're risking everything to protect their community.

    Here's the other thing though- the kid was facing a misdemeanor theft charge, which likely wouldn't see a day of jail time. Assaulting an officer is a felony though and something that every judge in America will hand down the maximum possible sentence. So this kid is now facing serious time for a petty little thing- his life ruined over something stupid.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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