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Dolphins Will Be “Tweaking” Uniform

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by shamegame13, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Fin D.. there's a vast literature on the perceived quality of craftsmanship in various fields. For example, in automotive engineering there's a long history of trying to come up with "objective" measures of craftsmanship, as well as researching differences in perception of what constitutes high quality craftsmanship in different cultures and among different subgroups of potential customers (in other words the research impacts sales in a serious way).

    For example, this research paper uses all kinds of statistical techniques to map out the underlying structure of perceptions in vehicle interior design craftsmanship:
    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gonzo/papers/ersal-etal-2011-craftsmanship.pdf

    Whether you look at that paper or really the ENTIRE field.. everyone understands that what constitutes good or bad craftsmanship is inherently subjective. In fact, it's a challenge to come up with measures that expert craftsmen in a given field agree with. So your argument doesn't carry any weight among those who research this subject.
     
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  2. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    My mobile jumped past it while loading the picture.

    Cbrad sums it up properly.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sure, ok.

    [​IMG]

    Purely subjective craftsmanship......

    Sigh.
     
  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Isn't that paper you cited talking about perceived craftsmanship? If I think car seats made from leather are better made than cloth seats because I like leather that's subjective, right? However, if leather actually holds up better than cloth then that's objective, right?

    I think FinD is correct. Something is either well made or not well made. Of course there are any number of things that fall in between well made and not well made. Now, some people may be OK with buying a car that only lasts 5 years. And maybe the craftsmanship of that car suits them just fine and they think it's "well made". However, maybe I prefer to buy a car that lasts 10 years. I don't think there is much subjectivity in regards to which car is made better. Correct?
     
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  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The point is that even experts care about different things. As they showed in that study, even when restricted to mechanical engineers evaluating interiors using an industry checklist (e.g. gaps and color harmony, etc...) there was widespread disagreement (measured by those gamma's.. many are negative for various vehicle types). So even when people have similar training you don't always get good agreement in what they think is high quality craftsmanship.

    So the authors proposed refining concepts in the checklist further because it's possible that each concept is understood differently by different people. For example, "gap" to one person might mean "gap size" while to another it's the "number of gaps" or to someone else it's "variation in gap size within a region", etc...

    And if people care about different things, then they won't perceive the quality of a given product in the same way.

    Same with art. Picasso was mentioned earlier. There are people who think Picasso had little skill. Some others say he did because of early paintings that looked more realistic. Others might say it's only his cubism stuff that was bad, etc.. And of course many others just flatly think he was a great genius. In each case you've got someone looking at different attributes and deciding whether that's good quality or not.

    And before I went into science and math, my parents sent me over to Germany to try to become a concert pianist. Let me tell you.. most of the guys there hated technology and looked down on popular music of any kind as just totally lacking in any kind of quality (not all thought that way.. but it was prevalent.. and there was a lot of Euro-snobbery too lol).

    Oh.. and about a decade ago Michelin was ridiculed with its ratings of Japanese restaurants because what its raters thought was "good quality" was so different from what Japanese thought was good quality. It went so far that certain top restaurants in Japan advertised that they were NOT rated by Michelin as a sign of being a "higher quality" restaurant.

    Point is.. what people care about differs and that can change their perception of whether something is good quality craftsmanship or not.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Look at more of this "subjective" stuff:

    Excellent tile work:
    [​IMG]

    No doubt all of you would gladly pay double for this exemplary work:
    [​IMG]

    Another amazing subjective job:
    [​IMG]
     
  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Package it as "modern art" and you might be a millionaire!
     
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  8. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    These are functional. A drawing of a dolphin is not.

    Once again these are terrible analogies.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Which one of these landscape paintings is better?
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    See, you keep vomiting your ignorance on this subject all over the place.

    A logo is ABSOLUTELY functional. And again, if you think those things don't count for this discussion, then you should disregard CBRADs post about the study.

    And again, you still don't understand this discussion if you are asking me which of the above is "better".
     
  10. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    In a discussion about a logo, an image, we are looking at other images of sub par carpentry. I don't get the analogy here. Those are excellent photos of sub par work?
     
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  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    What?

    I was told craftsmanship is purely subjective.

    So, the photos I posted all show subjective craftsmanship, right?
     
  12. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    Yea, you are comparing the dolphins logo to someone doing ****ty physical work. An artistic expression vs something solid, concrete and assumed to be functional. You've lost me.
     
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Logos are functional.

    You are making differences that don't actually matter. Craftsmanship is craftsmanship. Anything can be artistic expression if it is declared to be. That doesn't change the fact that logos are a practical tool.
     
  14. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    That's been my whole point. How is a logo not an artistic expression? The logo wasn't made to cover a hole in a wall or hang a picture from. It's an artistic expression.
     
  15. Phin McCool

    Phin McCool Well-Known Member

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    Quentin Tarantino is making an action movie about the lives of Haydn, Bach and Beethoven and gets Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone to play the main protagonists. Before the first script reading, Tarantino gets together with the three of them and says 'As the three of you are major acting talents, I'm not going to cast any of you to play the part of a particular composer but I want you to choose between you who will play which role."

    So Schwarzenegger sticks his hand up and says "I'll be Bach.."


    :thankyou:
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It being artistic expression is secondary to the fact it is a logo first. I know it is a logo first, because it was designed to win a logo contest not an art contest. There are things we are supposed to judge a logo by. You can love, hate or be indifferent by the artistic expression all day....what you cannot do is pretend poor craftsmanship is good craftsmanship.

    [​IMG]

    Is the above good craftsmanship?
     
  17. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Listen, I love the old look as much as the next person, but do yourself a favor.

    Open Photoshop or Gimp. Pretend like you've never seen any iterations of our logo before. Shrink them down to 50x50 pixels (or whatever.. small is what I'm getting at) and tell me how well you can make out what's going on.

    Often it's not about the logo when you look at it blown up. Think about a logo as THE KEY to all multimedia distribution. If I can't tell what the **** a logo is on a US postage stamp then what good is it?
     
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  18. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    A logo should be unique and recognizable. You aren't being introduced to the team or logo from a postage stamp. If you are, it’s probably not your mail.
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No there's more a logo should be than just that. Resizable is one of those things.
     
  20. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    I fail to see how it isn't.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Huh?

    It was already explained to you.
     
  22. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    You've thoroughly explained your opinion. I disagree.
     
  23. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    My favorite hockey logo would look pretty crappy as a stamp. Looks pretty cool at mid ice and on the jerseys though. Is your argument really about which logo looks most readable from outer space? The logo always looked great on the helmet to me. Your opinion is that it didn't. That's fine. It's your opinion. Stop acting like you are trying to teach the theory of relativity here, everyone understands your point. Maybe you need lasik.
     
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  24. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    I particularly appreciate that everything objective is itself subjective.
     
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You can't disagree with the resizing issues. Those are facts.
     
  26. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    As a guy who thought at one time that “ anything worth doing is worth doing right” something that blew me away in economics class was the concept of, “ just good enough, is good enough”. Engineers probably could design components that would last a lifetime, but would we as consumers pay for it?
     
  27. btfu149

    btfu149 Well-Known Member

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    Soooo.. back to the thread topic, any updates? Titans jersey got leaked early
     
  28. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    This is a better reasoning. I can agree with that.
     
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  29. Phin McCool

    Phin McCool Well-Known Member

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    Yes but is it objective or subjective?
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Subobjective....so just below objective.
     
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  31. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Supposedly 4/19 is the date we see them per Armando/Garfinkel on Twitter.
     
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  32. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Think all 32 teams should end up tweaking uniforms for the 21st century. Just IMHO!
     
  33. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    Anyone seen this **** yet?





    [​IMG]
     
  34. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'd say neither is better per se, but one definitely took more technical skills to produce. The attention to detail is obviously higher in the top image. Brush strokes were necessarily more precise and measured. I'd buy the bottom one first though. If I want something photorealistic, I'd just use my Pixel 2 to take a photo.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2018
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  35. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    So...I am guessing if they were going to do a change we would see it on this. It could be just my tired old eyes, but does anyone see any changes? Not counting the grey, but the colors, and logo design look the same to me.
     
  36. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    Only difference I see may be the font and the orange might be darker? This could also just the last production of the current design/colors. Maybe the uni's will have more grey in them? We will just have to wait till they rollout.
     
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  37. Phin McCool

    Phin McCool Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the unis will remain more or less the same but go back to having the orange bands on the home sleeves and aqua on the white away?
     
  38. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Based on a Tweet from Garfinkle the reveal was supposed to be April 19th, however I've just spotted that the Tweet has been deleted. So maybe not?

    Here's the cached version - LINK.
     
  39. Berezo

    Berezo Well-Known Member

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    Fin D you are losing this argument just stop.
     
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  40. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    He hasn't posted in 10 days and you decide to post this now? lol...WTF?
     
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