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Belichick conflict

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rdrunn004, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Lets just be honest for a minute....if there was video of BB paying off refs....would people's stances change? Not much. They'd still say everyone cheats and he's a genius for finding ways to push the envelope and who cares, I wish my coach wanted to won that bad...
     
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  2. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    BTW, you are excellent at those.
     
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  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    lol, you literally defended a straw man I was arguing against.
     
  4. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Oof, I need to stay out of the main. Didn't realize reading comprehension could be so hard.
     
  5. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Careful now, facts and reality are'nt taken too kindly around here.
     
  6. eltos_lightfoot

    eltos_lightfoot Well-Known Member

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    Okay, that meme about killed me off. I am so stealing that.
     
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  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sigh.

    This post is every bit the straw man you claimed mine was:

    Yet, you were fine with it, because it didn't directly challenge your stance that the Pats cheated their way to greatness.
     
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  8. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Neither are relevant to Belichick's tenure in Cleveland.

    His early struggles are noted as HC and it was a different era where at least 3-5 years was a given transition period for NFL head coaches. His highlights were the 11-5 season and a playoff win in his 4th year, followed by his developments in passing defense. The 5th year was an NFL debacle headed by Modell, nothing indicative of Belichick. And was he not in demand or did he choose to work again with Parcells? After he left and become the DC for Parcells, his defenses ranked 6, 2, and 9 respectively. What follows is NFL history.
     
  9. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Huh? His response was to a post about PED's in other sports. It wasn't a strawman.
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    lol right on cue!

    Don't want to derail this thread to a competitive cycling => doping thread, but this just came out about the head of the Italian cycling team LOL:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42987035
    Seriously.. I can't think of another sport where cheating is SO rampant.

    btw.. for those who don't know, it was LEGAL to dope in competitive cycling (and in the Tour de France) until people actually started dying from it. Most famous case was in the 1960 Olympics where a guy died after the 100 km team time trial because of performance enhancing drugs. There were many other serious injuries though before that, like a guy in the Tour that was too drugged to actually pull on the brakes during a downhill portion of the race.. fell over into a ravine because of that and broke his back.
     
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  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Why is how good Cleveland was before Belichick NOT relevant?

    It's a big difference taking a perennial bottom dweller to 6 or 7 wins for 3 years in a row vs. doing so to a team one year removed from 5 consecutive playoff appearances. Of course it's relevant!

    And while it's true I have no idea what the decision-making process for accepting an assistant HC job was in Belichick's mind, it's usually the case that coaches seek out head coaching positions over assistant HC if offered one. Pretty hard to argue Belichick was in great demand to be a HC after Cleveland if he decided to become an assistant HC.
     
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  12. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    How the hell is it?what happened to a ballclub three years before a HC's arrival relevant to them. Bud Carson came in after Schottenheimer (who lead the success prior) and sent them on a downward spiral before Belichick came aboard. There were exactly 4 starters total, all offense, that were on Marty's team that made it to Bill's in '92 - QB Bernie Kosar, FB Kevin Mack, WR Webster Slaughter, and OL Dan Fike. by '93 there was one - OL Dan Fike, and no holdovers by '94. There is very little to absolutely no connection b/w Schottenheimer's Browns, and Belichick's Brown's.

    It's not when he choose to work with a successful HC whom he had a previous and effective relationship with.
     
  13. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    I think football like in life has a lot of people who do/would cheat if they could get away with it. It's a completive business where losing gets show you the door, so you do what you have to to make sure you don't get shown that door. Am i saying every coach or player cheats? No, but would I honestly be surprise if 80-90% of the league cheated in some capacity? No.

    If the Dolphins win a super bowl and it was found out that somehow their super bowl opponent left their play book in the Dolphins visitor locker room from a previous game during the season, and it comes out after the super bowl that this incident happened. Would i give 2 poops? Nope. If the players and coaches swear up and down that they didn't peak would i believe them? Nope.

    Maybe i'm jaded but I believe a large amount of professional athletes cheat. Wholesome Peyton Manning was named in that Al Jazeera report. If the Dolphins win a superbowl and cheat their way there I wouldn't care because assume almost everybody in the NFL cheat from coaches to players s so ultimately its an even playing field.
     
  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The year after he left Cleveland he went to New England under Parcells and fielded a 14th ranked defense. Why did you skip over that season?

    What follows is a bunch of cheating BS.
     
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  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    First, it's 2 years not 3. We're talking about 1989 vs. 1991. Here are the rosters for Cleveland in those years:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1989_roster.htm
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1991_roster.htm

    JUST looking at the starters I can see at least 8 starters in both years: Kosar, Metcalf, Langhorne, Slaughter, Fike, Perry, Matthews and Minnifield. And if you think that's not a lot, you're not taking into account how much change there is over 2 years on many NFL teams. Just take the Dolphins in 2013 and 2015 with the SAME coach Philbin:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2013_roster.htm
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2015_roster.htm

    The only common starters I see there are Tannehill, Miller, Pouncey, Vernon, Jones and Misi. In other words, FEWER common starters even under the same coach. And that's not looking at the entire roster. So unless you've already got many key components of your team already built, you're going to see a good deal of turnover. That's normal.

    And none of that invalidates the point that Cleveland wasn't a perennial bottom dweller before Belichick came on board. I mean.. unless you're trying to argue that it's equally easy taking a team that had one bad year but made 5 straight playoff appearances to 6 wins in your first season coaching as it is to take a team that averages 3 wins per year each year (current day Cleveland comes close) to 6 wins, then you're supporting my argument that it DOES matter how the team performed even 2 years or more prior.


    Sure it is. Why don't you show us all those great head coaching offers Belichick got if you want to prove he was in demand as HC after that Cleveland debacle?

    Even when he was promoted to HC in NY (without coaching a game), they did so reluctantly:
    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/remember-when-bill-belichick-quit-as-hc-of-the-nyj-after-one-day/
     
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Wow.

    I don't really have anything to say other than, it's sad that people think this way and Peyton's accuser recanted.
     
  17. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about 3 years, as in the difference b/w when the Browns had success with Schottenheimer until they hired Belichick. Carson's 11-13-1 record in the two years between was a decline.
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    A couple of things....

    An opponent leaving their playbook in the locker room in a previous game is entirely different than stealing the playbook, or filming, or altering the ball, or messing with your electronic equipment, or messing with the opponent's electronic equipment, or paying refs, or......

    I think one of the main points of having a league run by the owners is to ensure everyone is playing fairly. They are putting out a product as a singular entity.
     
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  19. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Completely different eras of free agency and team transactions. Not comparable.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."

    Saying the whole NFL probably cheats, so X is fine, is creating a straw man.
     
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  21. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    It is entirely different than stealing but is looking inside that playbook to gain an advantage before the super bowl not cheating?
     
  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    First of all, if you're trying to rebut MY argument, then it's important that I was talking about 2 years.

    More importantly, the question remains.. do you or do you not think that it's harder to take an on average 3-win team (current day Cleveland over past 5 years) to 3 consecutive 6+ win seasons than it is to take a team that had 12, 10, 10, 9 and 3 wins to the same record in the 5 years prior to Belichick being hired?

    That's what this debate comes down to.
     
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  23. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. Maybe not. Everyone here conveniently forgets the transgressions of Don Shula.

    The Winning Edge. Finding the Winning Edge.

    Two books written by two greats who understood that you would do just about anything to gain an advantage over your opponent.
     
  24. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    ^^^Straw man

    :chuckle:
     
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  25. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    It's not a valid question. Circumstances don't allow such justifications.
     
  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Oh it's a valid question alright. It's not equally easy to take a bottom dweller to the playoffs once within your first 4 years coaching than a team that had 5 straight playoff appearances with one terrible year afterwards.
     
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  27. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    When the rosters and coaching staff are different over those periods of time, yeah, it's not a sound argument to hold.
     
  28. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    He named people including Manning not knowing he was being recorded. When the recording was going to come out he said the statements in the recording were false and he was recanting everything he said in the recordings.

    I believe him as much as I believe R Kelly when he said he didn't pee on that 15 year old girl.
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The coach determines the roster. It's not like everyone on that 1989 team that wasn't on the 1991 team suddenly retired because they heard Belichick was going to be the HC.
     
  30. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Did you know that Clay Matthews, Julius Peppers, James Harrison, and Mike Neal and MLB players Ryan Howard and Ryan Zimmerman were all named in the same report? Have you heard anything else about that? ALL of them were cleared too.

    Probably because the report was B.S.
     
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  31. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did know that...did they do it? I don't know thats not my circle. Do I think its incredulous to think they did? No.
     
  32. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Manning, Peppers, and Harrison have/did had long, stellar careers without ever having tested positive for any illegal substances. Matthews is going on his 8th or 9th year and same thing.

    If you want to believe this report that's your right, but it doesn't hold water to me.
     
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  33. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    This statement explains this entire thread.
     
  34. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    I recall Peppers testing positive as a rookie.
     
  35. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    So basically you think the mediocrity the Dolphins have been putting on the field since Marino retired is okay because the organization has integrity, according to you.

    Personally I prefer winning Super Bowls to whatever the Dolphins have been doing for over a decade. I would take Belicheck in a New York minute over the coach we now have in Miami.
     
  36. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    You're right. I forgot about that. He popped + for Hydroxycut, or some other ephedrine based supplement.
     
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  37. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    LMAO! Are you serious?

    You can't be serious.

    (I think we have a winner for the biggest, and dumbest, straw man)
     
  38. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    "The NFL has issued as many as six random drug tests to players, with each player receiving at least one drug test per season."

    "Romanowski said he took illegal steroids for a two-year period starting in 2001 and got them from Conte, the former head of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, which has been at the center of a steroids controversy in several sports."

    Romo didn't test positive until 2003 thats 2 years of beating the test. With todays advancement in medicine beating the test is easier than 18 years ago if you know what you're doing. If he figured out how to beat it for 2 years surely someone can figure out how to beat it for a longer period of time.
     
  39. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    lol...And?

    I never said that AAS or HGH wasn't being used in the NFL.
     
  40. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    No you implied that Peppers, Matthews, Harrison and Manning lack of positive testing must mean lack of illegal substance use.
     

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