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Urlacher and Lewis in HOF, Why not Zach Thomas?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Puka-head, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    Thomas numbers: 13 yrs
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomZa01.htm
    1100 tackles
    7 Pro Bowls
    5 All pro
    21 Int 4 TD

    Urlacher numbers:13 yrs
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UrlaBr00.htm
    1040 tackles
    8 Pro Bowls
    4 All Pro
    22 Int 2 TD

    Lewis numbers: 17 yrs
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LewiRa00.htm
    1562 tackles
    13 Pro Bowls
    8 All Pro
    31 Int 2 TD

    These three were contemporaries, they played in the same era against similar competition. All three were key to their teams success. All three are compared to Hall of Famers like Singletary, Ham, Lambert, Derrick Thomas and Buonocotti.

    So why not Zach???
     
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  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Lewis is on another level, but if Urlacher is getting in then I think Zach should too. Those two are comparable IMO.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    When we consider Zach's physical limitations, it should put him higher than Urlacher and second to only Lewis.
     
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  4. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Thomas didn't have "flare". So he went mostly unnoticed.
     
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  5. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I’ve said for along time Thomas is Buonconti without the rings.
     
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  6. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Man I miss zach such a great player
     
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  7. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    It shouldn't come that surprising. Since the vast majority of HoF voters are writers for their local papers, it would be easy to see why if you don't have name recognition, or as a previous poster put it "lack of flare", Zach would fall between the cracks, and not even be finalist, which all bias aside, is ludicrous.

    I personally think the committee needs more former players casting their votes. I mean, they are the ones that were competing against these players, and not just sitting on their couch watching highlights on Sunday Night during the prime of these guy's careers.

    I think most Dolphin fans can agree, that even though we are Anti-Brady, and we won't shed a tear when he breaks his leg tonight (crosses fingers), i will always have respect for him for writing that letter to HoF comittee explaining why Jason Taylor should be in a HoF. Because that is a competitor against a competitor respect no sportswriter will ever understand. I hope more former players/coaches, whether it be former Dolphins, or players/coaches that played against Zach will speak up so he gets the recognition he deserves.
     
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  8. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Zach will get in. Those two had to get in first. Both were stunning, game changing LBs and defined their eras. Thomas, though just as productive and effective, was/is/always will be the underdog, so it's of no surprise he'll get his nod at a later time as well.
     
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  9. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I love Zach but I’m sorry Urlacher was better. DPOY award in 2005, runner up in 2001...there is no former DPOY winner not in the HOF. Had more playoff success than Zach, better blitzer, better in coverage. Sorry, but this isn’t much of a conversation for me. There’s a reason he gets in on the first ballot....he found ways to get to the playoffs and a SB in spite of his horrible QB situation. Kuechenberg being left out of the HOF is a bigger issue for me than Thomas.
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That makes no sense at all.

    First of all, the DPOY award proves nothing. Zach based on numbers was every bit as deserving. It is a popularity contest like Pro Bowls. He didn't find ways to get to the playoffs or SB, that is patently absurd. SBs and playoffs aren't even a QB stat let alone a LB stat.

    The numbers prove Zach was better. In fact, based on Urlacher's physical attributes it should be a knock on him and he couldn't produce more than Zach.
     
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  11. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    There's quite a few.
     
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  12. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, that makes no sense at all. I never said SBs are a LB stat but it shows that Urlacher was able to elevate a team. And you want to penalize a guy for being talented. Thats a joke.

    Secondly, DPOY awards like an MVP or OPOY award mean plenty. You can call it a popularity contest but you dont get nominated unless youre a beast. The idea you completely dismiss that is patently absurd.
     
  13. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    I agree on both accounts. Urlacher's success is also why Dungy gets HOF consideration. Urlacher was a the new age prototypical LB/S hybrid in his Tampa 2 and still provided excellent run support from all the way down the pipe in that deep Cover 2 shell. Urlacher was an exceptional athlete as well.

    It's also a damn shame that, not only did Kuech not make it (again), but no OL were selected for this class either.
     
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  14. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There actually is a few....Bryce Paup, Keith Milliard, Dana Stubblefield. I dont remember where i heard that.
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yeah, no.

    Urlacher didn't elevate his team to SBs.

    This blaming one player for SBs is beyond bizarre.
     
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  16. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, yes.
    Again, i didnt blame or credit anyone exclusively for a SB. Where did i say that? I said he helped to elevate his team. Thats not the same but it is what great players do.
     
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  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    WADR, you are saying it.

    Either Urlacher elevated his team to a SB or it was a team effort. And frankly, if his production stats were the same as Zach's, then it proves it was a team effort, else Zach's production would have elevated his team tot he SB too.

    That's why this stance is so bizarre and makes no sense.
     
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  18. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Zach will get in but he will be an old man when he gets in... guy was overlooked his entire career snd the HOF will treat him the same.
     
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  19. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No its not either or....he was part of a particular unit, the defense, that helped get the bears to some playoff appearances and a SB. And he was the best player on that unit.

    Again, this isnt my opinion. Apparently hundreds of voters agree with me. As do the people who nominate DPOY candidates since Urlacher was nominated 2x and ZT 0. If Urlacher had been a Dolphin, you'd see things differently. Its not a bizarre stance unless you consider it bizarre for the fact it isnt pro dolphin.
     
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  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    DPOY doesn't make it fact, just like Pro Bowls don't make it fact.

    Tape, stats...those are facts. The facts say Zach was every bit the LB that Urlacher was. They produced the same but were recognized differently. That's all that's been proven by DPOY.
     
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  21. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Awards are technically stats since you keep count of them just like stats. You lose.
     
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  22. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Part of this has been that since Zach was a 5th rounder he was consistently undervalued in the first 3 or 4 years of his career, compared to Lewis and Urlacher who came into the league with “watch this guy - he’s the new best thing ever” on their resumes.

    Another thing is that stats in the NFL generally track positive plays. My eyeballs told me that Lewis and Urlacher gave up more negative plays than Zach because they were more aggressive, but unless you do a snap by snap review of their entire careers there isn’t a good way to find that information. Until the NFL starts tracking things like missed tackles and blown assignments we’re never going to get the full picture.

    Finally the hall of fame favors the spectacular players. If you loom at Buonconti and Butkus, they also produced at very similar levels, but Butkus gets the homage because his plays looked more spectacular. I remeber seeing an jnterview with Buonconti and he said to the effect that when Butkus hit you, you fell down the way Butkus wanted you to fall, when I hit you, you still fell over.
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Got this for you.

    [​IMG]

    It must true, there was a vote.
     
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  24. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That’s not a vote from a qualified source, thanks though.

    Here let me return the favor:
     

    Attached Files:

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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm every bit as qualified as pro bowl/dpoy voters.

    BTW, Dannell Ellerbe should be DPOY..."he found ways to get to the playoffs and a SB in spite of" losing his starting QB...following your logic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  26. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    I haven't watched nearly enough "tape" of Urlacher to form an opinion either way, but I do want to correct and add to these stats because it's bugging me that they don't match the source.

    Thomas: 17 ints, 20 ½ sacks
    Urlacher: 4 TDs, 41 ½ sacks
     
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  27. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Kuechenberg belongs in too.
     
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  28. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I never said a thing about losing a starting QB. I said he managed to get to the playoffs in spite of his QBs. And that alone was not the qualifier. Keep trying with the false narratives and shifting of the goalposts.

    And no, youre not qualified at all.
     
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  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    1. I didn't say you said that. You should pay attention to where I put the quotes.
    2. I didn't shift anything. There's no false narrative.
    3. I am absolutely as qualified as sports writers, which are the people that vote on DPOY.
     
  30. DenverDolfan

    DenverDolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some of you may be familiar with Dick Anderson and Doug Betters.
     
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  31. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Love Zach and JT but they often fell short when the playoffs were on the line or the team needed a critical defensive stop late in the season. Like clockwork.
     
  32. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    1. Re-read post 9. You should pay attention to what you are quoting. I said horrible qb play nothing about losing a qb.
    2. You went from complaining that the DPOY award meant nothing (still laughing at that), to trying to say that Zach should be in over Urlacher based on draft status and lack of physical gifts (never mind that Urlacher was a safety at ASU), to trying to say he’s comparable to Dannell Ellerbe in his accomplishments. That’s the very definition of shifting the argument. And it’s a joke.
    3. No you’re not.
     
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  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    1. Pay attention here because this is important....Look. Where. I. Put. The. Quotation. Marks. It is funny you keep telling me to pay attention when you aren't.
    2. Huh? DPOY does mean nothing because it is a popularity contest like the Pro Bowl. It is voted on by sports writers...you know, guys like Armando.
    2a. Urlacher 6'4" 258lb | Thomas 5'11" 242lb. Just stop.
    2b. Ellerbe lifted his team to the playoffs and SB, just like Urlacher, except they actually won and since MLB is team lifting position now...
    2c. No joke
    3. Yes, yes I am. I guess you think DPOY is awarded by people with football degrees or something...
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  34. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    1. No. Go. Back. And. Reread. The. Thread. There is something severely lacking in your comprehension skills. Maybe you didnt type what you meant to type somewhere but thats on you not me.
    2. Lol, again with the size of the player. So i guess Doug Flutie shoukd one day be in the HOF ahead of Tom Brady on account of being 5'8" or whatever? Your argument is just to argue and makes no sense. Youre comparing Ellerbe to Urlacher.. what the hell is wrong with you? :jump:
    3. Youre not at all qualified to give an opinion on this as youve shown no objectivity over the years. If its no pro dolphin, it is wrong in your eyes.
     
  35. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Nailed it.
     
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  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Why was my rebuttal to this deleted?
     
  37. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Inability to comprehend what I was saying and I got tired of explaining it. And language.
     
  38. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    To speak to the title of the thread, I'm nor sure Ray Lewis should be mentioned with Urlacher/Thomas. He was a better combination of what those two guy's did well.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That was unbelievably petty and an abuse of your mod powers. The site has language filters built in.

    Do you or do you not see the quotation marks? Do you or do you not understand what they mean?

    I put the parts YOU said in this quotes and my take outside those quotes. That means I didn't attribute too you anything I added, only what you actually said.

    Inability to comprehend...indeed.
     
  40. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sometimes I think you just like to argue. I mean really. I used my judgement and thats not an abuse, it’s my decision. It’s not there for you to question.

    I don’t know why you are talking about backup QBs at all. Unless you’re trying to say that Rex Grossman and Kyle Orion were as bad as Cleo Lemon and worse then Jay Fiedler? I saw the quotes, they just have no relevance to the rest of this conversation. Inability to comprehend....indeed.
     

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