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Can someone explain to me how Kiko Alonzo had a "disappointing" season?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Will L., Jan 18, 2018.

  1. Will L.

    Will L. New Member

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    I'm not getting it. A lot of miami media are restating this, not that I trust most of those fake news making, drama addicted, click bating, "proffesional journalists", however, I am no longer in Miami and don't get to watch every game anymore.

    But, looking at pure stats, I see Kiko is #14 in the league in tackles. Only one other outside linebacker (not sure is Zach Brown played inside or out this year) has more tackles and otherwise similar stats, Christian Kirksen (sp?) From Cleveland. They are paid roughly the same at approximately 9.5M per year.

    Additionally I see these same writers looking at linebacker free agents who had worse, in same cases, much worse, stats than Kiko did. But, I felt Kiko did a good job, not great, but the whole team didn't do well.

    Is there something I'm missing from not seeing all the games (caught 5 of them), or is the media being media?

    Thanks,

    Will
     
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  2. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    HI


    "New Guy"

    :001_rolleyes:
     
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  3. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    This you Kiko?
     
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  4. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    First, box score scouting is useless. Second, tackles are the most overrated statistic on defense.

    You can't judge a player by watching 5 broadcast games.
     
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  5. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just seemed like he was good for a couple of key mental lapses per game this past season.
     
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  6. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Tackles isn’t everything a LB is required to do, “Alanzo” can’t do most of what a LB is required to do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  7. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you watch the games. Most of kiko's tackles come 5 to 10 yards downfield or after he has given up a big play. He is usually terrible at getting off blocks and maintaining his run fits. He constantly takes bad angles to the ball carrier and/or attacks the wrong hole. He is very easily juked in open space with a few embarrasing instances of missed one on one tackles this year. He is also constantly caught out of position in coverage. He gave up multiple big plays in coverage throughout the year. He was graded the worst or among the worst coverage linebackers in the league by PFF. Pretty much everytime a ball was thrown in his area or to his man it was a completed pass. Opposing QBs had 100+ passer rating against him.
     
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's easy to say tackles are an overrated stat...but someone has to make one every single play. More tackles definitely points to more active players that are playing from sideline to sideline. I understand people don't love Kiko here, but saying tackles don't matter is silly.
     
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  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    First off, welcome to the site if you're a brand new member. You're probably not missing anything even though you didn't see the whole season- Kiko is loved by some and hated by others. That's how it goes with active linebackers though; there's always a huge gap in what people consider talent.

    For instance, Kiko struggles in pass protection. Kiko has a habit of over-pursuing. Some say he's a bust because of these issues. Others (like you) see a guy playing hard and hitting runners often, so that's what you're basing your opinion off of. The truth is that you're both right- Kiko is a talented player that sucks in coverage. I personally fault the coaches for putting him in that coverage in the first place though- do we get mad that Tannehill can't cover Tight Ends as well? Of course not.
     
  10. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Expecting Tannehill to cover TEs vs. expecting Kiko to cover TEs is not a fair equivalency.

    I liked 2016-2017 Kiko, did not like 2017-2018 Kiko. Not doubting his love for the game or anything like that, but he was often a bad linebacker this past year.

    That being said, a lot of Dolphins players played bad this year. That's why we were 6-10.
     
  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree- but you can't realistically expect a linebacker to do everything well. The equivalency would be saying Tannehill sucks because he struggles with the read option...even though that's a very small part of our overall offense and how we score points. Or saying Ajayi was a bad RB because he can't catch out of the backfield- so what? He can also run people over without ever catching the ball.

    I'm not on either side of this bandwagon- I like Kiko and I think he's a starting caliber LB for most downs. I just get frustrated when others point out minor problems and twist it to say a player is horrible at everything. Kiko has a lot of awesome qualities as well.
     
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  12. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Kiko Alonso hasn't been a good player since his first year in the league to be honest. Giving him that contract before his deal was up was a fireable offense.
     
  13. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Saying they don't matter and saying they are overrated (which was my wording) is completely different, though. Of course they matter, but if you have the defense or players racking up a bunch of tackles, it typically means they can't get off the field. Also if a player, much like Alonso, consistently makes tackles 6+ yards downfield, they are not as effective as they could be.

    And what good is a Will, or Mike for that matter, that is a liability in pass coverage? No one keeps their strongside backer in for passing subpackages. The Sam is the one that is supposed to be substituted out for those situations, not the other two LB spots who are expected to possess more speed and agility.

    Now toss in that Alonso is also easily washed out in the run game, and you've got yourself a problem that needs to be addressed at weakside backer if this defense is going to improve it's LB unit for all 3 downs.
     
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  14. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    Key this is exactly what I think of him. But I think sucks is an understatement. I don't dislike the guy, but my old *** with 2 ****ty knees could cover better than he did this past season.

    IMHO, he's too slow on his read & react. Is that a product of bad scheming by the coaches (maybe out of necessity due to the injuries to other key players) or is that a product of him not trusting/allowing the other guys to do their jobs and as a result being caught out of position? Probably. I think he's failing because he's trying to do too much instead of doing his job.

    Do I think he can play/cover better once those other guys are back on the field and some talent is added? Yes.
     
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  15. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Kiko is quick enough and fast enough to cover. He's big enough to get off of blocks and make tackles. And he's a good blitzer.

    His problem was he was used wrong and asked to do too much. Yes, this past year's defensive scheme was the same as the year before. But you're kidding yourself if you think things weren't different from even a fundamental standpoint. New DC's means a lot of changes and those changes messed up Kiko.

    Kiko was asked to cover people for far too long. When your front is getting little to no pressure on the QB and he has all day in the pocket I don't care who the LB is, whomever they are covering will find a way to get open. So, even though it looked as if Kiko "sucked" in coverage this season there was a lot more to it than that.

    The big problem with Kiko this year was he did overrun a lot of plays and allowed the RB or receiver to get past him. I think that was due to two things, poor communication and Kiko trying to do too much because he felt the pressure of what was being asked of him.

    If Kiko had played for the Pats last season we'd all be talking about what a stud he is and how much we hate him.
     
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  16. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to have to post some gifs b/c this is the kool-aid narrative on Alonso, and I'm talking the version with twice the sugar.

    Alonso's stack & shed abilities are straight up poor. If he's not being swallowed up by the block, he's attempting to go around them (always an error) instead of thru them. His coverage skills are also severely lacking due to the same reason he's poor vs the run: bad reads & bad angles.

    At the end of last year Alonso was moved from Mike b/c the staff suspected the similar things - that he's trying to do too much - so they moved him to Will. Now that those same problems are still occurring, it's becoming more obvious that he's just out there running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

    Oh, and Belichick would have nothing to do with him, either. He doesn't fit their mold for sound defensive fundamentals.
     
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  17. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    '17 grades via PFF: Alonso was tied for 69th (w/ Giants Calvin Munson) w/ a 38.3 grade. (And yes, it's out of 100)

    :bag:
     
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  18. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    PFF has Kiko ranked 2nd out of all OLB in pass rush productivity.


    PFF pretty much sucks and is worthless. They're compilation of numbers/stats is pretty good. Their grading system is BS.
     
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  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know your high on Roquon smith, how do you feel about his stacking and shedding ability at the positions?, we see him get washed out a lot when engaged strait up, I like everything else I see on the kid but where do you stack these issues when it comes to him playing the will position?
     
  20. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Although I agree with your main two weaknesses .....stack and shed and pass coverage, I think you over emphasize those points in his overall game at mlb. I think this coaching would also disagree. How do you justify them giving him an extension if he played as poorly as you imply. The coaches staff graded him every week. Knew what his assignments were each play and if he was as bad as you make him out to be there would have been no extension. The guy makes up for his deficiencies with his hustle. Not to the point of being an all pro but to the point where he,S not a negative as far as MLB is concerned. Wlb is definitely not a position for him. Let me ask you, since he' here for the next few years would you prefer him at MLB or at SLB and don't say neither. We have too much money tied up for him to be on the bench. Also what did you think the miami coached like about his game that got him the eztension
     
  21. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Franchises make poor decisions; it happens, especially with the Fins. IDK what they saw, but it concerns me that they threw a 1st round tender on him and extended him without reason.

    I'm most definitely going to respond with neither. He's too light in the pants for both positions. Alonso's strengths relate to a Will in a 4-3 Under or a WILB in a 2 gap 3-4 where he gets protection from the DL and can flow more freely. In our defense (one gap 4-3) he's not a good fit and his weakness are highlighted instead of hidden.
     
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  22. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Certainly not the end-all-be-all of grading analysis, but they can be a general guideline and/or just another reference. For ****s and giggles let's say they sorely underrated him. Be my guest and add 20 spots and 20 points to Alonso's final grade. How's he look now? Whelp, still well below average.
     
  23. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    I do like Smith, but haven't delved into the draft yet to provide a full and intelligent response to his strengths, weaknesses, and where he fits in a defense.
     
  24. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    That's the point. The "grade" is based off of crap so adding anything to it helps none. In post WWII Germany I could add 2 million Reichsmark's to my pot of 5 million Reichsmark"s and it would still be worthless.
     
  25. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Explain. For the record, I'm not a fan of their grades either, but to completely dismiss them is rather foolish.
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I can't because PFF doesn't divulge their entire grading method. And what they do divulge is crap.
     
  27. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Tell me where they are so far off that their system should be disregarded completely.

    '17 Final LB grades
    Player/Season/Pos/Pos 2/Grade/Pos Rank/Team

    Bobby Wagner 2017 LB MLB 96.7 1 SEA
    Luke Kuechly 2017 LB MLB 94.3 2 CAR
    Lavonte David 2017 LB WLB 94.2 3 TB
    Reuben Foster 2017 LB MLB 91.7 4 SF
    Sean Lee 2017 LB MLB 90.4 5 DAL
    Deion Jones 2017 LB MLB 89.8 6 ATL
    Telvin Smith 2017 LB WLB 88.8 7 JAX
    Demario Davis 2017 LB ILB 87.3 8 NYJ
    Avery Williamson 2017 LB ILB 85.6 9 TEN
    Navorro Bowman 2017 LB ILB 85.2 10 OAK
    Vontaze Burfict 2017 LB WLB 84.7 11 CIN
    Ryan Shazier 2017 LB ILB 84.7 11 PIT
    Mychal Kendricks 2017 LB SLB 84.3 13 PHI
    Paul Posluszny 2017 LB MLB 84.2 14 JAX
    Danny Trevathan 2017 LB ILB 83.7 15 CHI
    K.J. Wright 2017 LB WLB 82.6 16 SEA
    Nick Kwiatkoski 2017 LB ILB 82.3 17 CHI
    Jake Ryan 2017 LB ILB 82.1 18 GB
    Anthony Barr 2017 LB SLB 81.7 19 MIN
    Wesley Woodyard 2017 LB ILB 81.7 19 TEN
    Zach Cunningham 2017 LB ILB 80.6 21 HOU
    Nigel Bradham 2017 LB WLB 80.5 22 PHI
    Manti Te'o 2017 LB MLB 79.9 23 NO
    Blake Martinez 2017 LB ILB 79.8 24 GB
    Benardrick McKinney 2017 LB ILB 79.7 25 HOU
    Derrick Johnson 2017 LB ILB 79.5 26 KC
    Reggie Ragland 2017 LB ILB 79.3 27 KC
    Tahir Whitehead 2017 LB WLB 79.1 28 DET
    De'Vondre Campbell 2017 LB WLB 78.9 29 ATL
    Myles Jack 2017 LB SLB 78.7 30 JAX
    Thomas Davis 2017 LB WLB 77.4 31 CAR
    Shaq Thompson 2017 LB SLB 77.2 32 CAR
    Todd Davis 2017 LB ILB 77.1 33 DEN
    C.J. Mosley 2017 LB ILB 76.6 34 BAL
    Kyle Emanuel 2017 LB SLB 76.4 35 LAC
    Joe Schobert 2017 LB MLB 75.6 36 CLE
    Craig Robertson 2017 LB WLB 75.2 37 NO
    Jon Bostic 2017 LB ILB 74.7 38 IND
    Patrick Onuwuasor 2017 LB ILB 73.9 39 BAL
    Eric Kendricks 2017 LB MLB 73.4 40 MIN
    Matt Milano 2017 LB WLB 72.2 41 BUF
    Jatavis Brown 2017 LB WLB 70.8 42 LAC
    Kwon Alexander 2017 LB MLB 70.4 43 TB
    Jaylon Smith 2017 LB WLB 69.0 44 DAL
    Vince Williams 2017 LB ILB 67.8 45 PIT
    Karlos Dansby 2017 LB ILB 67.7 46 ARZ
    Mark Barron 2017 LB ILB 66.0 47 LAR
    Zach Brown 2017 LB ILB 61.8 48 WAS
    Michael Wilhoite 2017 LB SLB 61.3 49 SEA
    Preston Bown 2017 LB MLB 59.6 50 BUF
    Brandon Marshall 2017 LB ILB 54.6 51 DEN
    Christian Kirksey 2017 LB WLB 52.9 52 CLE
    Nicholas Morrow 2017 LB WLB 48.0 53 OAK
    Eli Harold 2017 LB SLB 47.7 54 SF
    Martrell Spaight 2017 LB ILB 47.4 55 WAS
    Kelvin Sheppard 2017 LB MLB 46.5 56 NYG
    Vincent Rey 2017 LB MLB 45.7 57 CIN
    Christian Jones 2017 LB ILB 45.3 58 CHI
    Jayon Brown 2017 LB ILB 45.1 59 TEN
    Keenan Robinson 2017 LB WLB 44.3 60 NYG
    Kyle Van Noy 2017 LB WLB 44.2 61 NE
    James Burgess Jr. 2017 LB SLB 43.9 62 CLE
    Jarrad Davis 2017 LB MLB 42.1 63 DET
    Lawrence Timmons 2017 LB SLB 42.0 64 MIA
    Elandon Roberts 2017 LB MLB 41.4 65 NE
    Brock Coyle 2017 LB WLB 41.3 66 SF
    Kendell Beckwith 2017 LB SLB 39.9 67 TB
    Alec Ogletree 2017 LB ILB 39.8 68 LAR
    Kiko Alonso 2017 LB WLB 38.3 69 MIA
    Calvin Munson 2017 LB MLB 38.3 69 NYG
    Deone Bucannon 2017 LB ILB 37.8 71 ARZ
    Hayes Pullard 2017 LB MLB 36.6 72 LAC
    Antonio Morrison 2017 LB ILB 36.5 73 IND
    Jonathan Casillas 2017 LB WLB 36.1 74 NYG
    Jamie Collins Sr 2017 LB SLB 35.9 75 CLE
    Darron Lee 2017 LB ILB 35.5 76 NYJ
     
  28. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    PFF’s grading on Alonso is spot on... we were a bad team yet everyone on Miami should have great PFF grades lmao it’s absurd. Alonso is a liability pretty much everywhere in his game outside of blitzing and cheap shots.
     
  29. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Tackling #'s encompass "pure stats"?

    Watch a game for once. He's not a player smart enough to make up for his lack of size at the position. He also remains a liability in pass coverage.
     
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  30. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    He’s actually got a brick in his skull.... guy commits some of the dumbest cheap shots I’ve ever seen.
     
  31. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What some people don’t realize is there ave nene games where they have grades up by halftime for the for the first half. There’s no possible way to evaluate individual “wins and losses” for each player on each play in real time. Yet somehow they do it? I tend to agree with Dan...some of their stats are really good but the grading system is poor and poorly done.
     
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  32. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it's impossible to grade off the broadcast views no matter the position and that's what PFF tends to do to rush out their product. They just want to be first in that aspect and disregard accuracy in order to accomplish that.

    But, I thought I read that they go back once coaches film is released and correct their grading. Could be wrong there. Regardless it's in bad taste and poor form, and their rep takes a hit b/c of it (rightfully so).
     
  33. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ive never heard of them going back to rewatch things but either way theres just too many times that their grades just dont match up with what im watching. Ive tried it, there are some nice features but imo not worth it.
     
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  34. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    He's been a liability covering routes that don't travel in a straight line, for one. He's often stone-footed with RB's and TE's breaking right across his face. He had far less of an impact than you'd have liked, especially considering him playing OLB was supposed to free him up to do more things that he's supposedly good at. He gets caught looking in the backfield far too much for the guy expected to be your best coverage LB.
     
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  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but I find that their grades are generally accurate. I wouldn't swear by them point for point, but they are generally a good guideline to see wether a player is performing well or not. They certainly have been good at rating dolphins players in my opinion. All of their dolphins ratings match up with what I see on the field.
     
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  36. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Unless they improved in the last year or two they are garbage. I remember on this site, three years ago, we were ripping them apart for the offensive line grades they were giving. They weren' even close to giving an accurate grade. They don' hire pro scouts. They hire any millennal and underpay him and give him a basic guideline on how to grade
     
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  37. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Youre entitled to your opinion but i wasnt speaking exclusively to dolphin players but rather specific games and players throughout the league.
     
  38. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Their line grades, both defensive and offensive, are quite dismal. Certainly a factor for trying to grade them off broadcast when the endzone cam is must to analyze line play.

    PFF is a generic base line for player evaluation.
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The problem I have with pff is that there is a demonstrable bias in their rating system that's not corrected for. For example, if you take pff ratings of QB's in 2017 and plot them against points scored per game by that QB when he started the game or had at least 20 attempts, you get this:
    [​IMG]
    For reference I got the ratings here:
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/final-nfl-qb-rankings-by-pff-player-grades-2017

    What's the problem? The problem is that you'd expect the relation to be linear given that points scored is such a fundamental measure for the offense. That is, you'd expect that if two QB's differ in their pff grades by say 5 pff points, then whether one got a 95 and the other got a 90, or whether one got a 80 and other a 75, or one a 55 and the other 55, the average difference in points scored should more or less be the same.

    But as you can see, QB's with the worst pff grades don't follow the same trend as those of most other QB's. It seems like pff assigns grades that are worse than they should be to QB's they consider to be really bad, given the grades they give to average or above average QB's.

    Passer rating btw IS linearly related to points scored as well as win%. And if you look at how passer rating and pff QB ratings are related for starting QB's (as defined by pro-football-reference) in 2016 (I did this last year) you get this:
    [​IMG]

    Same problem. Pff assigns grades that seem to be biased too far downward for the worst QB's. Oh, and the relation being linear doesn't mean the correlation is high or low, so different grading systems can grade QB's quite differently yet still have the internal consistency you'd expect.

    So how to correct this? The math used is called Rasch analysis but requires that there are a huge number of graders (e.g. 100 or more) because it uses the variation in how different graders assign grades to different QB's to transform the grades by each individual grader to a score where the unit of measurement remains the same throughout the entire scale (so that a difference of 5 points really means the same everywhere).

    If pff ever did that (this is standard for decades now in large-scale educational testing and in analyzing questionnaires from medical research) they'd actually be able to claim they have a scientifically validated approach for integrating the grades they get from individual graders (says nothing about the quality of the individuals though).

    Point is.. there's good evidence for an inherent bias in pff grades that should be corrected before you take the grades at face value.
     
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  40. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Not sure about "bias", but I know from personal experience that they have troubles correctly ID'ing defensive coverages, and therefore cannot appropriately analysis the play, ME/MA's, or a QB's proper progression reads vs those misidentified coverages.

    I'm more inclined to think it's due to error, rather than some inherent bias.
     

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