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Thoughts on Raiders Dolphins Game

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Nov 6, 2017.

  1. SocaCasualuk

    SocaCasualuk Active Member

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    U.K.
     
  2. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's not the narrative, you're wrong. The narrative is Jay Ajayi's selfish attitude wasn't worth holding on to him for this year and next. He would have been gone after next year, and maybe.. maybe we would have gotten a compensatory pick for him? Nobody was going to pay him a 7m a year contract, he's been unproductive in the pass game as a pro. People aren't going to pay a lot of money to a one-dimensional back.
     
  3. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about? Jays TD run was 46 yards. How in the hell did he get to 77 yards on 4 carries that went no where. You are real quick to call people clueless and delusional yet you post this crap.
     
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  4. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    exactly everyone thinks Williams and drake "hit holes" the raiders defense sucked and they didn't stack the box and we still couldn't run. Ajayi with that same defense last night has a great game
     
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  5. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ajayi faced a worst run defense twice, in the Jets. How did he fare in those games?
     
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't watch the Eagles...was just quoting the stats that all the Ajayi fans keep throwing around here.
     
  7. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    he faced a stacked box because we cant pass, the raiders had no idea if we would run so they played the pass IE why there was holes. what's so hard to understand about this? with ajayi teams know we cant pass so they stacked the box, no one can run with 9 guys in the box. When its played straight up holes will form and people can run through them.
     
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anybody here is arguing that Ajayi isn't an awesome power runner- he has mad skills and defenses know it. I heard at least two coaches this season say that their entire game plan was to stop Ajayi....that's all they practiced the entire week.

    We look at Suh as unstoppable, yet when defender of the year Khalil Mack got completely shut down last night, nobody seemed to notice. When there were running lanes and we were consistently moving the chains on the ground or getting into favorable down/distances, folks just say it's coincidence. Cutler got hit twice total last night- with Ajayi in there he was getting nailed one in three pass attempts. Another coincidence? It's really not if you watch the film.

    Ajayi is a beast, but he's also a selfish, mean-spirited player who couldn't stop complaining. People here see everything in black and white- either someone is awesome or they completely suck. And that's just not the case here with Ajayi, Drake, Williams or our offensive line.
     
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  9. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    One run? You’re gonna penalize him for a 48 yard TD and only getting 8 carries in a committee as a new player against the 6th ranked defense?

    And I’m delusional?
     
  10. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    i like Williams in space, but not a fan of him running the ball. I suppose you have to let him run or you are just tipping your hat when he comes in the game.
     
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  11. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It shouldn't matter, right? Ajayi was the #1 NFL back against stacked boxes.
     
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  12. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Also did not throw the ball downfield. Screens and dump offs really help with not getting hit.
     
  13. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    How is that not the narrative? Quite a few posters are trying to talk themselves into believing getting rid of Ajayi helped the run game.

    He’s joined arguably the best team in the league, split a nearly 50-50 workload against the 6th ranked defense and was 3 yards shy of tying our two RBs’ total rushing yardage. He also got a rushing TD and ours didn’t.

    And if you want to make the argument that any RB could do well for them, just keep in mind that he’ll be their #1 RB after this bye week of theirs.
     
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  14. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    once again 5 on 4 the line has a chance but 6 on 9 usually the line is going to look like crap, when 5 guys are blocking 4 its easy for the pull blocker to get to the second level, but when then pull blocker is blocking 2 yards in the back field your running game isn't going to get going. Vonn miller arguably the best pass rusher doesn't get to the qb every time so the offense is going to win a lot of battles when its not totally one sided towards the defense, but makes a lot of sense why people take away ajayi, he is going to strive in philly because philly has a passing game beyond 8 yards so theres at no point they can stack the box. but with cutler you can stack the box and still cover 8 yard slants and bubble screens and check downs.
     
  15. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    not really name another RB in the league that faces as many snaps as ajayi, he should lead that stat because he sees it 80% of the time I would bet the next guy sees it maybe 20% of the time. it will all change now in philly I doubt he sees it even 20%
     
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  16. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Nah, we should just ride or die with him. You know, win every game he had 13+ touches but one for a season and then scapegoat him when our offense is one dimensional. Oh, and we still can’t run against the 27th ranked rushing defense.
     
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  17. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    and you forgot that oaktown didn't ever stack the box lol
     
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  18. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Um.. he had 23 carries against the Jets for 51 yards, do you really think he put his mark on that win?
     
  19. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it’s almost like teams aren’t afraid of our running game, or something. When the 27th ranked rushing defense doesn’t respect your running game, you’ve got biiiig problems.
     
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  20. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's the article: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...y-ajayi-leads-top10-rbs-against-stacked-boxes

    There are backs with higher-percentages of running against a stacked box. This article, of course, has no bearing on this year and doesn't divulge the total offensive snaps the % is taken from.
     
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  21. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    When your starting RB committee can go down with a stuff breeze why would you stack it Williams and drake are so easily brought down its crazy, I think even Chris Collinsworth commented on this in the third quarter about these guys having to learn how to run the ball in the nfl
     
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  22. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, because he was a threat. Go back and watch the tape, they were on him like white on rice. When teams hone in on a single guy like that, it opens up everything for you.
     
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  23. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's not my narrative, don't lump me in with somebody else. I don't think any kind of back we put back there is going to make a difference at this point. What I did see last night, however, was our tailbacks much more involved in the passing game through both pass protection and checkdown passes. You keep referencing Ajayi's rushing TD in the Eagle's win but nothing about Damien Williams receiving TD in our game. I guess I should expect that.
     
  24. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    that's what im saying is his percentages are higher of what he faces so therefor he has the ability to make his avg higher many more times than the other guys. So he should lead this. one break away run will change his avg a lot. so for every 4 times those other guys see a stacked box ajayi sees it 12. easy math
     
  25. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Well then I apologize for lumping you in there, but I’m distinguishing between our offensive output against the Raiders in particular and our running game overall.

    I’m glad Williams had a receiving touchdown, but I’m not worried about the passing game as much as I’m worried about the running game. We gave up a player that I think is a gem for next to nothing. To me, that says Gase has NO intention of fixing the running game.
     
  26. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's up to the offensive line to fix the running game. As a coach, you can lead a horse to water..

    They had a good pass-protecting first half, but there were too many drive-killing hold penalties sprinkled throughout the game, especially the second half.

    Are Drake and Williams going to be as effective as Ajayi, on the ground? Probably not, I said that in the initial "Jay to Eagles" thread. But they damn sure showed up in the passing game. Sometimes, your receivers aren't open. You need to be an efficient back in check-down situations so you don't set your team up with long-to-go. Williams and Drake at least showed a little wiggle in the passing game. If you want teams to back up, then let's get some backs in there that can make some YAC underneath. Ajayi was not that all year, and then he was a ****ty teammate, 1 1/2 years left on his contract that we weren't going to renew, etc. etc. We faced stacked boxes because teams knew Ajayi = run, he hadn't been a threat in checkdowns all year.

    Separate your emotions from the player, and the business. Be real. This isn't last season anymore. Not a lot of people, aside from KeyFin, are arguing our run game is a lot better. That's a debate to have with him. It's an answer I don't know, so I'm not going to argue that. I just think people are being disingenuous with regard to our pass game. Backs do more than just receive handoffs.
     
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  27. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe ajayi wanted out, well it worked out great from him he went from a .500 or sub team to possibly going to the ship!! maybe ajayi is the genius not gase?
     
  28. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure any of that is accurate without having the total number of run snaps those backs got outside the red zone, a number we're not enlightened to in that article. I don't know how you can make that determination.
     
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  29. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I can make that because ive watched every dolphin game and I watch a lot of football demarco murray carries the ball on stacked boxes on 3rd and short or goalie. Ive really never seen teams stack the box so many times against another team like miami and them not have an answer and just feed right into what they predicted. but like you said that is not this year so that stat was for last year when he broke off huge gain runs on stacked boxes. but those werent on 1 2nd and 3rd down repeatedly. Get what im saying? first series against Baltimore there was 9 guys within 5 yards of the L.O.S. that's 1st and 10 lol that's very rare a team does that from their own 25 on 1st and 10 to stack the box lol.
     
  30. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's great and everything.. but we can't really go off your anecdotal memory when dealing with a statistical ranking like that list. No offense. I can "feel" something is completely different than what you "feel".
     
  31. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    your right its based off opinion and what is seen, however your list doesn't state how many times each back ran the ball with a stacked box and down and distance and or goaline or not. so really its all based on opinion
     
  32. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tailbacks on linebackers are more enticing match ups then 4 corners on 4 wide receivers.
     
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  33. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That list is not an opinion, it's a statistical list. What you draw from it is an opinion. What it doesn't prove is that Ajayi saw more stacked boxes last year then any other back. We need the total snaps the % was taken from, plus the stats from the rushes inside the red zone, to make that determination.

    A lot of people are touting his stacked-box success as a reason we shouldn't have traded him, and then condemn Gase for running it into stacked boxes. I think Ajayi is a good runner, but maybe his presence in the game and his one-dimensionality tipped the defense off more then Gase's playcalls. Gase has been a historically balanced play-caller, despite the 3rd-and-1 stat.
     
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  34. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Was hoping the Fins would had pulled it out. It is not the defense that is costing the team games. But it is not having an offense these days. That is.
     
  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are delusional- nobody is penalizing him for anything. His last 15 carries with the Dolphins netted 0 yards...zero. And all you're doing is pointing to one run and saying, "Look there....that one play proves everything about the Dolphins."

    The part you're missing is that Drake ran well with the ball last night. Williams ran well with the ball last night. Were they huge games? No. But did they beat zero? That was the goal here...that piddly 2.3 yard average Ajayi managed through seven games. Yet you keep saying that we had zero run game last night.....do you know what zero means? Nada. Nothing. Kaput. You know, the stuff Ajayi did on his last 15 carries in Miami. That's zero. We had 80 yards more than that, plus our RB's combined for almost 100 yards in the passing game.

    180 is a heck of a lot more than zero. If my math is right here, it's about 180 more (someone please check me on that since I didn't take calculus in college).

    We couldn't ride or die with him because we had already died on passing downs. It's bad enough Ajayi refused to hit the holes his linemen were making, but he also refused to block on passing downs. He got Moore leveled at least 4 times last week ON TOP OF his big 22 yard performance on 16 carries...he was far too much of a liability to keep on the roster any longer. Since he has trade value TODAY though, it was a very smart move getting the wrong kind of attitude out of the building.
     
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  36. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Ok, I've read so many posts in so many post game threads. I almost started a thread of my own but then I would be like others here who start a thread when the silliest of ideas pop in their heads so I'll offer my take on the game here.

    There are 3 factors that led to our loss last night and only 3.
    -Poor run blocking
    -Overzealous officiating
    -Poor field conditions

    Now before I expand on those, let's give some credit where credit is do. We all have been arguing left and right all season over our quarterback play...who should be playing, who we should sign to the point that blood pressure meds couldn't help any of us calm down but last night, Cutler was 34/42 for 311 yards and 3 TD's with no INTs. That equates to a QBR of 121.33. There's no question about it, Cutler SERIOUSLY bounced back from his sub-par performances prior to the rib injury. DeVante Parker gave Cutler a big target to hit as well as a passing game out of the backfield, something we hadn't all this season.

    Ok, so there's some things to feel positive about but the things that actually caused us to lose the game last night was what I mentioned above. As I watched the game last night, it did become apparent to me, even before Collinsworth said anything, that our OL is more geared to pass blocking than run blocking. With the exception of Drake's 42 yard run, our running backs didn't really gain consistent yardage when the ball was handed off to them. As for the pass block, the OL actually did well last night with Cutler getting sacked only once and he wasn't under much pressure all night...which I'll address in the third point.

    Secondly, I don't know what was up with these officials last night. They were throwing flags left and right as if they were throwing streamers and some of these penalties were QUITE stupid! And it was on both teams as well. We had many drives that were stopped due to penalties and drives by the Raiders that were extended due to penalties.

    Lastly, and I truly believe this led to a sub-par defensive line performance was the poor field condition. I've addressed this before in a previous thread but there is something going on with this turf that hasn't occurred in the past. It's soft, the defensive line hasn't been able to get any true traction to make a charge to the quarterback.

    Even though last night's game ended in a loss, it was a much better showing by the offense and one of the finer showings this season.
     
  37. DHitchens

    DHitchens Active Member

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    You're excluding a key variable. The Dolphins' pass defense surrendered an opposing YPA of 10 against the Raiders.

    There have been 30 games in the league this year in which at least one of the two teams involved had a YPA of at least 9.5. Those teams are 29-1 in those games.

    In the one game in which a team had a YPA of at least 9.5 and lost, the opposing team had a YPA of 10.9 (Seattle versus LA on October 29th).

    You stand almost no chance of winning by surrendering an opposing YPA of 10, as the Dolphins did against the Raiders.

    And this was consistent with an overall pattern of poor play against the pass all year, where the Dolphins have surrendered an opposing passer rating of 102.6.

    Such an opposing passer rating has been associated with a 4-12 record on average in the league since 2004. There has been but one team of the 19 that have surrendered opposing passer ratings between 99 and 105 that had a winning record since 2004. That team had Brett Favre in 2004 and finished 10-6.

    There have been tremendous problems with the Dolphins' pass defense in 2017, and the pass defense was the primary reason the team squandered its first stellar offensive passing game of 2017 -- Cutler's 121.3 passer rating Sunday -- and still lost.
     
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  38. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I know RBs catch the ball. I’m just saying we’re one dimensional and we’re not even good at that.
     
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  39. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Of course, but if teams know your RBs can’t run, there’s almost no difference.
     
  40. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    We proved we were one dimensional against a very bad defense. Ajayi proved he could run as a newcomer in a committee against an excellent defense.

    You’ll come to find that out.
     

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