Poor Quentin Moses lol, First he slipped from sure 1st round status to the 3rd round . . . then he was cut by like 2 teams . . . now he had a thread created about him and it turns into the Drunkenpuppies draft thread . . . lol
You're susposed to be arguing that one player can transform a team despite his supporting cast, not shooting a hole in your own argument. Randy Moss blew in Oakland, he's got a HOF QB now, Adrian Peterson is running behind a line that dropped huge resources on the line. Same with the Ravens when Lewis was there. Uh, LT means Left Tackle. Again, I'm going to defer on the grading your talent evaluation thing. It's hard to say exactly what needs more ATM, considering the Defense has had somewhat of an upswing as of late. No? How's McFadden theoretically going to do more to improve our team with Ronnie Brown on the team, who is more likely than not going to turn out to be a better and well rounded player at the same position that isnt exactly complementary? No, we dont. Again, the only thing you are measuring here is the actual points scored, when in reality there are huge contributions from players who will never score a single point in their entire life. Basketball is utterly irrelevant here. Most top draft picks are clearly the best player on the field when they play, and dominant to boot. Yes. I'm asking why essentially the entire history of player evaluation and personnel decisions in the NFL seems to disagree with your system of building a team? Who gets credit for scoring the points?
i for one do not think taking BPA is a must in the salary cap era... that philosophy started before the salary cap and you could keep 2 expensive guys on the team playing the same position because it didn't effect anything... nowadays you cant... if the Vikings are picking say 10 and magically Darren McFadden falls into their laps and is now CLEARLY the BPA you think they should take him? with AP and Chester Taylor already there, JUST because you think you have to take BPA? no of course not, be serious... and even if you think McFadden is the BPA, its not by much over guys like Calais Campbell or Dorsey who would both do 10x more to help our TEAM win more games than McFadden...
And to the debate about scoring points and defensive guys like Dorsey Vs. McFadden.... If Truck leaves after the season (and he probably will retire given his age) we are going to need run stuffers in the middle even more then we do now. If we can stop the run its going to mean we are giving up a ton of points, which means our offense has to score even more to win. Its not about the amount of points a defender is going to score for you vs the amount of points an offensive player is going to score for you. Its about how a defender allows your D to keep the OTHER team from scoring points vs the offensive player helping YOUR team score points. If we are going to invest draft picks in the offense I don't want it to be at the RB position, we have Ronnie, we have Ricky, and heck if we think the position is that much in doubt we can throw a little change at Chatman and try to keep him. If we go that side of the ball I want another receiver, tight end, or RT. Heck throw a LG in the mix as well if you want, unless you think Mormino is really that good. He didn't exactly light it up in pre season though.
So the patriots offense is the same without Moss? For years, specifically the Ravens SB winning year, it was Lewis and nothing else. I noticed you skipped Walter Payton.. And one of those resources that the Vikings signed was Chester Taylor, yet that didn't stop them from drafting Peterson... Safety, DE, DT, MLB we have too many holes long term. Ronnie is injured and often, why not have a player who can be a top flight compliment for him? Ronnie has missed how many games for us in his first four years here? Contributions? Of course, players who can take a 3 yd dive to the house are special and we need more of them. It showed not only was Peppers athletic, but also very durable. Dorsey cannot lay claim to "Most Dominant Player on the Field" this season, McFadden can and has for a few years now. I don't think it does, the Rams stockpiled offensive talent, even the Vikes have done the same. Statistics wise both players do, Talent wise, the player who took nothing and made the play get's the credit and should be considered by us. Dorsey was healthy in 2006, he wasn't even the best DT in college that year, this year he has not been as productive, yet he is to be the #1 pick in the entire draft?
They have both Peterson and Taylor, both verifiable offensive threats at the RB position, they have spent large money on the Oline and drafted a young QB, they can now watch Jackson develop and still have a chance at the play offs because they didn't stop stocking their offense at Chester Taylor.
Which Rams and Vikings teams are you talking about? The 1998 Vikings did nothing beyond set a record for most points scored in a season: the 2007 Vikings certainly are not an offensive powerhouse, nor do they have a wealth of talent on offense. They're a QB, 2 WRs, and a TE away from having a true powerhouse offense. The Rams... I'm not even going to touch that. It's pretty obvious what I'd say about that. Bottom line: taking McFadden would be the biggest waste of a #1 draft pick since Michael Vick. Glenn Dorsey would help this team far more.
I cant believe a Dolphin fan would argue that "having more offense" is the only way to go in the draft or FA or anything else for that matter...Did the ENTIRE Marino era teach you nothing about needing a defense...as for the rest of it..you say "Big Daddy" I say "Tez"...you say "dickerson" I say "robert smith"...you want to discuss/argue the players fine...you Dont like Dorsey I get it..but the rest of your points are dubious.
The 49ers did the same when they were going to the play offs year after year. Dorsey has done less this year then he did last year, why is he the #1 pick or even up for discussion as ther #1? He's done nothing this season. Let me put the question to you then: If the Titans offered us Haynesworth in a trade for the #1 pick, would you take that deal?
WE have more needs on defense then offense, the #1 pick is not going to make our Defense a top 10 unit again, it can do that for our offense. Both units are not exactly powerhouses, our offense is closer to being top tier then our defense is by a long way. WE have 6 other picks including a #1, and we have cap room for defensive FA's. We only have #1 pick to take the best football player in the country, and for it makes more sense to take the highest skilled game breaker that we can find and use that #1 pick in the draft on them rather then taking an oft injured DT when history shows that DT's going #1 almost never are as good as advertised.
No, the Patriots offense isnt the same without Moss. It's been pretty damn good before without him, though. Randy Moss basically singlehandedly shoots a hole in your assertion that a single player can turn an offense around. Oakland's offense blew with him. Which Lewis are you talking about? Before you said that when Lewis was with the Ravens? The only Lewis not with the Ravens right now is Jamal Lewis. Ray Lewis plays on defense, and almost certainly isnt singlehandedly their defense either. Also, Chester Taylor was a career backup signed to fill a hole short-term in Minnesota. His contract is nowhere even remotely close to either Ronnie Brown's or what Darren McFadden would get. Also, Walter Peyton had some help in his time. Jim McMahon was pretty good, and let's not even discuss all of those defensive players who didnt score any points to help him out. Technically speaking, we've got holes at Guard, RT, WR, and TE on offense. So what? (Notice, no holes at RB) Because that's an absolutely ludicrious use of resources? That's the #2 and #1 pick in two drafts, one in the midde of a 5 year 35 million dollar contract and the other who will sign one in excess of the 6 year 55 million dollar one that JaMarcus Russell signed last year. And that's at a position that outside of a couple of gimmick formations, cant play together at the same time. \
Oft injured....maybe but he has never missed a game In my book playing through pain is a plus not a minus...Dorsey is higher rated on top 100 list (#1) by scouting agencies as often or more so than Mcfadden I guess they see something you dont..
You guys want McFadden so bad huh? Even with how many running backs there are available in the draft, with Rice, Slaton, Kevin Smith, etc; there are going to be running backs, good running backs, available in the 2nd round to pick up for insurance just incase our franchise player doesn't come out to good after one season, though by next training camp I expect Ronnie to have made a full recovery, his injury wasn't major. I for one do not want to be picking #1 overall and paying the Top player a contract that the player would use JaMarcus Russell's contract in their negotiations. You guys thought paying 30 million guarantee money for JaMarcus, an unproven rookie, was ridiculous? Just wait for this coming draft. I would not be surprised if it goes to 35-40million guarantee. It is beyond ridiculous to draft another running back when we are loaded with running backs, and all the running backs run well behind this offensive line, and have our franchise player is coming back. Draft one in the 2nd. If we have to trade down or draft a reach to fill a need, go for it. I am hoping for Chris Long or James Laurinaitis in the 1st round. Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas must be replaced.
The #1 pick's contract is slotted, they receive automatic increases upwards no matter "who" is taken #1. And "yes" I do think that is a bit out of touch, but it is what it is. I'm not in love with Dmac, I just don't see any of the other top prospects being worth that sort of money for what they would bring to us. Zeke made the point that Dorsey hasn't missed a game this season even though he was injured, that is a good point and something to consider.
I see who is #2.... Seriously though, Woodson at #4? Hmmm, and look down that list, only two Dt's that I noticed besides Dorsey, Okam and Ellis. So does that mean we are stuck picking Dorsey or that we must sign a FA?
I think the combination of Dorsey + CB/S/LB/TE/WR (not necessarily in that order) would be greater than McFadden + DT/CB/S/LB/TE/WR. Dorsey is certainly the #1 defensive player in the country, and luckily for us he's at a position of need. Thankfully Dorsey is such an outstanding talent that the difference between being #1 overall between him and McFadden is slight, and a case can be made for either without slighting anyone.
Oh, I see. He's a defensive lineman, therefore not showy, therefore he's not worthy of the #1 pick, nevermind that having solid offensive and defensive lines are the first priority of a football team. "Build from the center," remember? Dorsey is absolutely worth the #1 pick. He's a game-changing player who can both stop the run and attack the QB, which is amazing since he plays DT. No. Haynesworth is playing for money. Give him money, and he'll disappear. Furthermore, Haynesworth isn't worth a trade for the #1 overall pick. I'd rather have Dorsey slotted next to a 2008 version of Paul Soliai whose head has been removed from his ***. A draft-day trade I would absolutely make is a 2nd & 3rd for Jason Taylor. The Jack position is gone, which means Taylor should be gone as well. Then I would package those picks along with the 2nd we obtained from San Diego to trade back into the 1st round and get Dan Connor. Use our original 2nd round pick on a CB (Chevis Jackson?), and our 3rd on a TE, S, or RT, depending on the BPA.
A FA or later pick is excluded from playing DT for us? A Okam at #32 somehow is excluded from consideration? Why "must" we pick Dorsey? What leads you to say that? He has done -0- this year (but to his to credit hasn't missed a game) and even in 2006, he wasn't the best player on the field every game. They all are playing for money Desides, point being that Dorsey at his best in a good rookie year would be a Haynesworth, we could get a player like that at #32, we cannot however get a player like McFadden at #32 who could do the things that he can do on the field. Trading JT would create a need for a pass rushing DE, it would then make more sense to take Chris Long then Dorsey at #1 in the case of trading JT. TE? I would rather go with either linebacking depth or CB's or a S, the "need" for a RT may be not as great as some speculate Shelton has done a pretty good job for us this year. We also could take a Wr as Hagan just is not developing as well as I hoped he would, and Booker may be gone in a cap space move. If a Wr slips we could be in the market for one IMO.
I disagree with Haynesworth. He might be motivated to play like he is right now by money, he might not be. I doubt he'll disappear totally, though. Haynesworth has always been a pretty good player, and I dont think you can really say he doesnt care. A player who doesnt care isnt going to go into the rages that Haynesworth has. The big knock on him has been his conditioning, and taking plays off. Which is fairly common among bigger run stuffer, which despite his height/weight, I'd consider Haynesworth. I dont want anything to do with Paul Soliai. Get him away from the field. The Jack position isnt "gone" by any sense. Whenever Capers has had the chance, he's employed it. It's just a position that is used out of a 3-4 or 3-4 type defense, and we've at times been unable to run it with 1 "big" DE healthy at times.
Because, out of the top-tier talent in this draft, Glenn Dorsey is the best player at a position of need for this team. Darren McFadden is a better RB than Glenn Dorsey is a DT, but not by much, and we don't need a running back. We have this one guy, his name is Ronnie Brown. He's evidently pretty good! He's done zero this year? Not in the games I've watched. He's consistently been feared by every team he's gone up against, to the point where they were taking cheap shots at him to get him off the field. When he was on the field, he had to be accounted for every single time. He has great talent, and he has great physical dimensions. Here's a better idea: explain why we don't need Glenn Dorsey. Of course they're all playing for money. That's not the point of what I was saying. Either you're intentionally ignoring my point, or you didn't understand it in the first place. Here, I'll spell it out: Albert Haynesworth will only play up to his potential when he stands to gain a large sum of money for his trouble. Otherwise, he will disappear from the game, and will not be worth the money being paid to him. A team that's rebuilding does not need to hand out a big-money contract to a player who won't live up to it. Didn't we learn this from Joey Porter? And, damnit, we don't need Darren McFadden. We aren't going to take him. He's going to be drafted by another team. He'll be a very good NFL player, but it won't be in a Dolphin uniform. Get over it. Keeping JT creates a need for a pass-rushing DE. Have you been watching the games this year? JT cannot get to the QB from the DE spot. He simply can't. He's not doing the job of getting to the QB. We need a pass-rushing end regardless of whether or not JT is on the roster. We may as well get draft picks for JT, rather than let him continue to suck. Yes, TE. In all fairness to David Martin, he's shown flashes, but he's not consistent, and in this offense, the TE position is very important. Hell, we've had more Justin Peelle sightings in 2007 than in 2006 simply as a result of the scheme. In the 3rd round, depending on how the draft and free agency have played out, then TE is a potential area of interest. As for LB and CB, I addressed those. Dan Connor will solve our MLB problem, and we can either attempt to acquire Marcus Trufant in free agency, or draft Chevis Jackson. As far as Safety goes, that depends on what happens with the CB situation. Booker isn't a cap liability. He's also better than Hagan. I'd get rid of Hagan and keep Booker for the rest of his contract. If we solve a plethora of needs prior to the 3rd round, then drafting a falling DJ Hall is a possibility.
Turning Andre Gurode's head into grated cheese doesn't exactly fit the criteria I look for when finding people who "play angry." Haynesworth would not be worth the big contract someone will give him. I don't want this team to get scammed again. Soliai's issue is technique. That's a coaching issue, not a talent issue. Clear up the coaching, and the player will improve. He has the physical talent. He just needs to adjust to the NFL. JT has been playing almost exclusively as a DE, not a Jack OLB. The position is, for all intents and purposes, gone. We almost never see it, and it rarely works when we do.
Ronnie is just hurt too darn much, normally recovering from a knee injury tends to run into the next season as well, I "think" that is what happened with Thompson in SD a couple of years ago. On average he has missed 4 games every year he has been with us, ala Fred Taylor, who eventually developed but how much of a chance can we take now? We have the #1 pick, there is McFadden... I've seen 3 or 4 LSU games this season, Alabama, Ole Miss, Kentucky and one other one (they tend to run together) and only 1 time did I eve see Dorsey almost make a play by splitting a double team, and he didn't make the play BTW. Cheap shots are an unfortunate fact of life for interior lineman, sucks, that's life. Now I have seen teams put 9 men in the box to stop McFadden and it was no contest even then..he just is that good. We can find another player later who can do the same job as Dorsey can, for less money, and spend the #1 pick on someone who can score from anywhere on the field for the next 7 years for the same money we would pay Dorsey. Happens all the time in the NFL, player has large yr, signs large FA contract, then disappears, JP may not be the poster boy for that though as we have used him out of position most of the season, it hasn't been lack of effort, it's been a lack of proper utilization in his case. So, you know you want us to draft him don't you..... As bad as JT has played comparatively speaking, he is still our best pass rusher, if we move him, we need someone to replace him who has some hope of getting to the passer. I would like to see JT go for a #1 pick next season though, if he goes this year we may get a 2nd and late pick for him IMO. Te's are just one of those positions that seem to develop more by luck then by clever drafting though, Kellen Winslow took years to get on the field, but A. Gates came out of the shadow of guy who went to Arizona to play at a pro bowl level. Novacek, Walls, these guys just sort of develop suddenly and not always the guy you'd think either, Bubba Franks has been "okay" for example, but not great. Olson with the bears is another just "okay" Te, you just never know who will develop at that spot and be even Alge Crumpler... We don't know that those two players will even be available, let alone if someone else won't give Trufant an offer. We may just go young at Wr, there are players at that spot who slip all the time as you point out.
I'd agree that he probabaly isnt worth the contract he's going to get, but I'm not entirely sure we have a huge choice. It's a dry market for NT's, the draft is likewise not good, and we've got Keith Traylor almost certainly retiring, and a NFL Europe player soundly beating out our 3rd round pick. The league is full of washouts who were physically talented players without technique or skill. Ya, and I'm saying that it's not a result of what Capers wants to do, but rather what injuries have forced him to do.
One thing I must say . . . . it doesn't thrill me to pay top dollar for a DT, I would much rather spend it on a DE, LT or even McFadden . . . . DT is just not a position to place all that money on . . . . I don't care if it is a need. Ronnie will be in his 4th year . . . . we can decide to resign him if he stays healthy or try and trade him . . . which I think he will bring us a first round pick anyways . . . . we gotta be smart about this. Its not the worst thing in the world to draft McFadden, especially if he is the clear cut BPA . . . . Ronnie has a 5 year contract, we would sign McFadden to 6 years. Its looking to be the best decision . . . unless a guy like Chris Long or Calais Campbell just have unbelieveable combines. Jake Long hasn't impressed me this year and he projects as RT, he is out.
Ronnie being hurt is not an excuse to take McFadden. Who's to say that McFadden won't get hurt playing for us? And Ronnie's injuries are freak accidents: in 2006 a Detroit Lions defensive player hit his helmet on Ronnie's hand, for crying out loud. Of course someone else is going to give Trufant an offer. The idea is to offer Trufant more than everyone else. This means that he's got to be a high priority free agent, and likely the only major player we can bring in before the draft. It's going to take a lot of money to get Trufant, but thankfully not as much money as it would to get Nnamdi Asomugha, presuming he doesn't get franchised. As for Connor and Jackson, Connor is top ten talent, but can probably survive to the middle of the 1st round, thanks to the likely coming out of James Laurinaitis. I can see the Patriots taking Laurinaitis, and Connor staying on the board until around #14 or #15, where he's ripe to be plucked in a trade up. We'll have the #32 pick in the draft, meaning we need to jump just sixteen spots to get him. That's doable.
Excuse. A clear excuse. McFadden at #1 overall and Ronnie at #2 overall is not a complimentary draft style: it's overkill and unnecessary. Ronnie has proven this year that he is a top three NFL RB even on the league's worst team. Darren McFadden is not better than Ronnie Brown, and is certainly not worth drafting when Ronnie is here to stay. (You can bet your *** we're going to extend Ronnie's contract in 2009.)
yeah i see drafting DMac as a luxury pick... adding another body to our arguably strongest position on the team and paying the money it would take to do that would be insane... we are in the salary cap era, its no longer as simple as taking BPA without any thought process involved with what is already on your team... besides its not like McFadden would be head and shoulders the BPA in the draft, i dont even consider him BPA right now...
Nah . . . for the simple fact Ronnie has been in the league for 3 years, and has missed time in all 3 of them . . . . plus now he is comming back from an ACL injury. This type of stuff depends alot on the combine as well. I tell u, if McFadden puts up a major combine . . . he will be coveted, and if Ronnie is having problems comming back, he is a no brainer pick to me.
