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Went back to give Charles Harris a second look...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by hitman8, May 1, 2017.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I saw the same thing. Especially when compared to the TJ Watt tape. It looked to me that LSU game planned for Harris and he had little help on defense. That TJ Watt had a lot more talent on his defense, and LSU did not specially game plan for him.

    I would feel ecstatic if Harris dominated even with everything against him, however, if he was that type of player he would have been a top 5 pick. I also felt comforted after watching LSU.
     
  2. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes you are wrong. That happens a lot when watching film sometimes your mind plays tricks and magnifies the times the play goes away from the player you are watching to make you think they are somehow purposefully avoding him, but if you actually count the number of times they ran to the right, left, or middle you will see most of their runs were to harris side or up the middle.

    They also rolled out to both sides not just away from harris so that tells you the rollouts were not specifically designed to avoid harris.

    They also ran multiple end arounds and screens to harris side.

    Again please watch in detail and count the times the play goes away from harris vs the times it goes toward him or up the middle.

    I don't see that they gameplaned to avoid him specifically.

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  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    LSU actually ran towards harris side more than to the other side, and they rolled out to both sides not just away from harris, also had multiple end arounds and screens toward harris side.

    You are just magnifying the times they went away from him in your mind which makes you think they were avoiding him.

    It's happened to me sometimes when watching other players as well but if you watch again closeely you will see that was not necessarily the case.

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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    You're 100% correct
     
  5. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Easy enough to chart the plays. I didn't get the sense they ran a lot of plays away from Harris when I watched it in full yesterday. No time today, but watched the first two minutes again and other than one rollout, all plays were dropbacks or runs right to Harris or up the middle.

    EDIT: Through 3 minutes, two plays designed away from Harris, rest at Harris or up the middle.

    EDIT 2: Not seeing it fellas. There are a few designed runs to the other side, but just as many if not more, right at Harris. Maybe it changes completely in the second 5 minutes, but not in the first 4-5 mins

    Red zone touchdown at 4:55 by #5 was right at the LG/LT

    Edit 3: Gets blown off pretty bad by the LT at 6:00. Ok I really need to get back to work
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
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  6. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    With two very young kids and a small business to run, I dont spend much time on film review of the draft anymore, just relying on our esteemed members in the Club now. From my very non-guru eyes Harris doesn't look at that great in this LSU game, but this is just one game. You can find a game of every player where they don't look hot. I'll let his career play out. There are differing opinions of him so we will see.

    Someone posted a not so glowing scouting report of Harris. That person is some dude named Slimm over at FH. This Slimm dude just got high praise from one of our own members here, who really likes Harris. So great minds will still differ.

    We'll argue this endlessly in the coming years, I'm sure.

    His run defense in this game looks fairly weak. I almost get the sense he's not even trying to pursue on some of these plays. If he's a great pass rusher, that's fine we'll overlook it. Cam Wake's first couple of years here, there were complaints of his run defense.

    Nobody cares now.
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I wouldn't recommend watching him against run heavy offenses, he's lost..and becomes robotive when it comes to rushing the passer as in, I don't see football instincts to get to the passer, I see a predetermined plan where if the original plan don't work, there isn't a backup..
     
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  8. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No he isn't. Sometimes I think you just post to contradict whatever I say. If you know how to watch film and study the game tape closely you will see that they were not really going away from him in fact on the contrary they were going right at him more than they were going away from him.

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  9. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Realistically, you could complain that every pick made by every team in the draft was horrible and the guy is a bust and you would be right the vast majority of the time. You'd also be an idiot.
     
  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah well I didn't do that did I? I complained about a specific pick and praised most of the other picks.

    There are very clear reasons why Charles Harris is a flawed first round pick since he is very bad against the run and his pass rushing production came against sub par competition.

    If we had picked a sure fire starter like forest lamp who has no major holes in his game and is ready to start day 1 I wouldn't complain.

    I also wouldn't complain if we traded down for more picks which we could have done and would have been my preferred course of action.

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    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  11. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Yeah as really it seems like Charles Harris unless he gets his act together will be a bust.
     
  12. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    take a third look
     
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  13. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    probably should have cut him long ago. he had his shot.
     
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  14. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he will necessarily be a complete bust, but I don't think he should have been a first round pick either since we had better and less flawed options available. I think he will be similar to Jawan James, an ok player but not someone who has shown he was worthy of a 1st rd pick.

    To me Charles Harris should have been a second or third round pick and will most probably perform like one at the NFL level.

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  15. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Seems like you don't really understand how the draft works. There's no such thing as a "sure fire starter".
     
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  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I understand perfectly how the draft works. There is no 100% sure fire starter, but there are guys who are much closer to that 100% and less risky than others.

    There were more complete prospects available who have no obvious holes in their game like Forest Lamp for example. Lamp would have been a pretty damn sure day 1 starter. Harris will be nothing more than a situational pass rusher and fourth on the DE depth chart next season due to his deficiencies against the run. There were also two trade down offers on the table which could have used to get more picks and fill some of the other holes which we still have on the roster.

    Instead we chose a very flawed player in Harris.

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  17. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    This is what Daniel Jeremiah wrote about Harris before the 2016 season.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...irst-look-scouting-missouri-de-charles-harris

    His last mock had him going 15th to the Colts.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts

    Apparently the Dolphins staff see the same thing.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
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  18. Vision

    Vision Member

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    There is absolutely no doubt that Cam Wake is a better athlete than Charles Harris, so I don't disagree with you in that regard at all. However, what you said above is simply not true.

    Cam Wake was under 6-3 at the Combine and weighed in at 236 pounds. He ran a 4.67 at the Combine and benched 225 lbs. 20 times. He ran the 3-cone in 7.12 seconds and the 20-yard shuttle in 4.11 seconds. Wake was 30 pounds lighter than you claim above and actually quite a bit slower. He also didn't test well in the strength department. He was 23 years old at the time of his testing so he was more physically mature as well.

    Charles Harris was under 6-3 at the Combine and weighed in at 253 pounds, which is 17 pounds heavier than Wake was. Harris ran 4.82 at the Combine, but scouts have indicated they had him at 4.74 (still not fast). Harris ran the 3-cone in 7.05 seconds. Harris did one more rep for 21 reps and was 21 years old when he tested.

    The big difference between the two, and the biggest area that shows the explosiveness of Wake is that Wake had a vertical jump of 45.5 inches, while Harris only jumped 37.5 inches at his Pro Day and a woeful 33 inches at the Combine.

    Again, Wake is a better athlete, but adjusting for weight and age, Harris fared very comparably, if not a tick better than Wake did. This also ignores the fact that Missouri edge rushers are obviously not training for the events of the Combine, as truly none of the edge players coming out of that program have tested well (Shane Ray, Markus Golden, Michael Sam, Aldon Smith, Charles Harris).

    Under the tutelage of Coach Kuligowski, Harris had a better year, but the change in defense in 2016 negatively impacted Harris as he was routinely asked to be the force player and push action inside to others rather than maximizing his first step quickness to wreak more havoc by penetrating more gaps.

    I was lower on Harris than many others, but the fact that Harris has the ability to get his third step down faster than the opposing tackle (a big precursor to success as a pass rusher outside) and he has a spin move that allows him to threaten the inside of a tackle, gives him tools that most college pass rushers do not bring to the table. Harris will be a player that can create pressure for himself, rather than needing others to create it for him (such as Andre Branch or Olivier Vernon) and that skill is much more valuable than where he was picked.
     
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  19. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Wake ran an official 4.55 second forty at his pro day, according to wake it was 4.49. He did weigh less than he does now but still he is a lot faster and more explosive than Harris. Wake also converts speed to power a lot better than harris. Sources below.

    While Harris does have an elite first step off the snap and a very good spin move, the rest of his game in terms of size, strength, run defense, read and react skills, pursuit speed and football IQ are average to below average.

    I am not of the opinion that having a great first step off the snap should by itself warrant a first round pick.

    His production overall is not that impressive, and even the production he did have came against mediocre offensive tackles who are not at all representative of what he will face at the NFL level. Whenever he encountered decent competition he was not very effective.

    Again I am not saying he is terrible and will be a complete bust, I just don't think he was worth our first round pick given all of his deficiencies and the other options we had at that point to trade down or take a more complete player who was ready to start.

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2009/01/cameron-wake-i.html

    http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/01/18/dolphins-import-pass-rusher-wake/

    http://onwardstate.com/2014/12/02/cameron-wakes-journey-to-the-nfl/


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    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  20. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    Edge rushers, like quarterbacks, will get "overdrafted". That's just the way it is because they are so important and so hard to come by.

    That being said Harris has some tools, good enough technique and discipline to play within the scheme, he is not as lost in run defense as some think but likely doesnt have a "perennial probowler" ceiling. He is more like a Vernon, he will put pressure but wont finish with a lot of sacks and if he cant become a better athlete I dont see a huge upside.
     
  21. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    So, I went and watched this vaunted LSU tape and I have to say: you shouldn't evaluate anything more than a slice of cheesecake.
     
  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Great analysis buddy. Care to point out exactly what I said about the game tape is wrong? I'll be waiting...

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  23. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    That's easy, the fact you chose to give your opinion on it at all. I would say you have no idea what the hell your watching, and honestly don't ever post a critique again. It's just not in the best interest of whatever reputation you hope to achieve.

    Was that long enough of a wait for you?
     
  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Just as I thought, you have absolutely no valid point to make. You are just spouting hate. I am not here to build any freaking reputation or whatever the heck you are blabbering about. I am a diehard dolphins fan and I'm here to discuss dolphins football.

    Nothing else. Go back to bed and don't respond to me again unless you have some valid and coherent points to make regarding dolphins football.

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  25. Vision

    Vision Member

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    You are changing what I quoted though. What you wrote that I quoted is simply not true.

    Wake was actually much lighter, was one rep weaker, and ran a slower 3-cone than Harris. All while being nearly two years older (more physically mature and also more football mature). I also maintain that Mizzou edge rushers are not training for the Combine events (intentionally or not).

    The other stuff is subjective, and I'm not actually huge on Harris (I am a known Mizzou hater), but the making Wake out to be something at 23 years old that he wasn't is what I'm correcting.
     
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  26. TheOne

    TheOne Active Member

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    What did you see exactly to say he is wrong? Once again he was in college he is now in college and will get coaching from NFL coaches. At this point deny it all you want but all you want is attention, well congrats you got it.
     
  27. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    To set things straight Harris combine 3cone was 7.47, per nfl.com, and as you all know that's the most important test for a defensive lineman. I dont know if he posted a 7.05 at his pro day, I certainly hope so because track record for Edge rushers with 3cones north of 7.40 is not good.
     
  28. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    I've rewatched the first part of LSU tape too, honestly it doesnt worry me. First of all LSU is not a prostyle offense, it is run heavy in a way you just dont see in the NFL. They run the ball on average 60% of snaps and in the nfl you are not going to see that. They use the fullback and many NFL teams dont even have a fullback on roster. When they pass the ball it's usually a screen or a quick read designed to help a poor passer and in the NFL you definitely dont see that. Against the run Harris work wasnt bad, he kept action on the inside when he had clear force responsibilities, sniffed nicely a screen pass and missed just one read clearly. That was bad because he didnt squeeze on the give to the back and left the gap open (still you don't know for sure his responsibility, usually he is disciplined crashing on the back) but it's one play. He fails to keep shoulders square but you can coach that some, it also depends on coaching he received. Usually linebackers played poorly. LSU didnt scheme around him nor abused him at will, they slide protection to his side some but it's not like they were triple teaming him constantly.
    If you are looking only for guys who singlehandedly took over games the only one I can think about is Barnett. Garrett too. Nobody else was that dominant and certainly not week in and week out. Harris did some of that against weak opposition at least.

    What worries me the most after looking closely is the translatable traits of his pass rush, if they will stay at the NFL level given his poor athleticism. That is the question, not the LSU video.
     
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  29. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Did you even read what he said and look at the film? He stated that LSU gameplanned specifically to avoid Charles Harris and ran plays away from him, which is easily shown to be a wrong assumption. If you watch it in detail and count the number of times they went away from harris vs. The times they went at him you can see that they ran more plays towards his side and did not specifically gameplan to avoid him.

    I am not looking for any attention, I am making valid points and you respond with nothing of substance.

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    Last edited: May 5, 2017
  30. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    CK pointed this out in a club thread, Harris improved his vertical jump by 5.5 inches from combine to proday. (32" to 37.5") Thats an astronomical improvement for a vert jump in a short leriod of time. A verticle jump isn't like a 40 time were running on a fast track at a pro day can make a big difference. I read one article that quoted Harris as saying he felt had "dead legs" at the combine. This is pure speculation, but I think he over trained for the combine. This is a kid that lifted the mourning of the draft. I think he is a much better athlete than his combine performance suggests.
     
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know at 6'3 the kid can windmill a dunk with ease..this dude is also a very very determined young man..his presser was awesome..set very high expectations for himself..

    I want him to be great, Im trying to see past what I saw on film.
     
  32. rackhound

    rackhound Well-Known Member

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    We really wont know until he actually plays in the NFL but I think he looks pretty good and has a lot to work with. I have seen really good reviews of Harris and also bad ones which just goes to show you cant really know until he proves it through actual play on the field. I cant wait for the season to start.....its killing me. :jt0323:
     
  33. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    That would definitely wipe away a lot of my doubts


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