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Cowboys possibly interested in Beck

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by CrunchTime, Aug 12, 2008.

  1. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    He didn't exactly have full control here, either.
     
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  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Maybe, Beck still has those tools, but the cutsey BS about McNuggets IMO to Parcells shows a lack of basic seriousness.

    Drop a line about cutting the guy and all of that feelings stuff goes out the window, there will be no Cam Cameron on the sidelines shouting "Good Job" with Sparano.

    Parcells strikes me as the sort who would throw the fire alarm at 3 am and see who reacted the best to the situation, this is the same guy who persisted in calling Terry Glenn "she" for an entire year.
     
  3. calphin

    calphin deadly at 250 yards!!


    Thank God for small favors:up::wink2:
     
  4. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    If we went 1-15 without the head coach having full control, doesn't that kind of insinuate a self-fulfilling prophecy?

    Wait, nevermind. I don't want to get into Cameron Argument #90,253.
     
  5. calphin

    calphin deadly at 250 yards!!

    We can just leave it at that:up:
     
  6. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    As I said, wishful thinking. I would add a 2nd starting CB to that list. If Goodman goes down early (not totally unreasonable), our CB corps go from average to sorely below average.
     
  7. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Obviously you don't know what Ozzie Newsomes job is in Baltimore...hes the GM. HE makes Personnel decisions, not, Cam. I don't know why this is hard to grasp for some of you Cam supporters. Or is it because Cam didn't have enough time to "prove" himself?

    As for your arguement to keep Beck because we've pissed away so many draft picks...thats a different issue. We have since Wannstedt pissed away a bunch of high picks on QBs. But this FO can't help it if those were bad picks. Again, would you want us to have kept Eddie Moore? How about Jamar Fletcher? AJ Feeley? If a guy is a bust a guy is a bust. It doesn't matter where he was picked.

    I agree we shouldn't cut players too soon. But the FO has far more experience evaluating QBs than anyone on this board. If THEY deem a player doesn't have what it takes to develop...we have to trust him. Just like if you give a chef sand, he knows he can't bake a cake. Or, in more famaliar NFL lingo, "You can't make chicken salad from chicken shiite."

    I like Beck. I hope he impresses and is kept around to BACKUP Henne, (since Henne has OBVIOUSLY outperformed him), but I'll trust the coaches in both instances.

    Again, time will tell, not only about Beck, but about Sparano, Long, Merling, Langford, and the whole damn bunch of them.

    By the first game of next year, I think I'll be able to tell whether I see signs of an improved team. I called it on JJ, Wannstedt, and Saban. I was criticized in all three instances of being too harsh too soon. Then after those losers left, everyone was acting like they had ALWAYS agreed that those guys were indeed, losers. It just the nature of the beast. :wink2:
     
  8. Big E

    Big E Plus sized porn star

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    I think that gets addressed next yr. The plan is to draft inside out, so next yr should be secondary and LB's.
     
  9. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Beck has to be much better than Henne. He's a few years older and a legacy of the last regime. Beck has to prove himself to be obviouslhy superior to Chad P and Chad H to ever have a chance at starting. If he and Henne are roughly about equal then Beck loses. His age is a factor. He will not be the QB of the future. he has to impress and impress now.
     
  10. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I agree completely.

    And hes been in the NFL longer. If you watched on Sat nite, you would be hard pressed to determine which one was the rookie and which one was the second year player. So in that context, Henne outplayed Beck. And thats the bottom line.
     
  11. Big E

    Big E Plus sized porn star

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    Its as simple as this, who went to Michigan and who went to BYU? Come on, its obvious who is a better QB here. I'm not doubting Beck's potential or his ability, but he doesn't hold a candle compared to Henne. Henne played tougher competition in College which led most to doubt his abilities. The Big Ten is a tough conference! He got beat up alot, and still led his team to be for the most part a successful program. IMO Henne probably also had better coaching. Michigan produces good QB's, look at the track record. Granted BYU has had a few as well. When the big picture is opened up and really looked at you have to think that Beck just is not in our plans, its obvious to me. He's the "other" coaches boy, for one, two he hasn't stood out that much at all. In a few years no one is going to be talking about Beck in Miami because he probably wont even play here anymore.
     
  12. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Tono Romo - Eastern Illinois
    Matt Hasselbeck - Southwestern Louisiana
    Brett Favre - Southern Mississippi
    Jeff Garcia - San Jose State
    Kurt Warner - Northern Iowa
    David Garrard - East Carolina
    Steve Young - BYU
    Phil Simms - Morehead State
    Roger Staubach - Navy
    Ben Roethlisberger - Miami, OH
    Steve McNair - Alcorn State

    Can we please knock off the nonsense about big programs reliably producing big QBs and small programs not? It's just not true. A starting quarterback is just as likely to come from a small school as he is a big one. For all the talk of Tom Brady coming from Michigan, he got almost zero playing time there.
     
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  13. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I can't believe you left off the most successful small school QB of All time....

    From the great state of Louisiana...Terry Bradshaw, La Tech.

    also from the great state of Louisiana...Jake Delhomme.

    also from the great state of Louisiana...Doug Williams.

    Gotta give the Cajun guys some love....

    Another SB winning QB from BYU....Jim McMahon

    And arguably, the greatest QB ever, Johnny Unitas went to Louisville...hardly a perennial CFB powerhouse until recently.

    There are alot of reasons to like Henne over Beck, but where they went to school is not one of them.
     
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  14. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Well, the list was done extemporaneously. Thanks for the additions.
     
  15. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Screw Beck, screw Henne, Max Hall is our future!
     
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  16. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    No worries brother....

    Just wanted to get my fellow Louisianians some props! :wink2:

    I think together we've totally debunked the theory that one has to go to a big school to be a good QB.

    USC has never produced a SB winning QB. Neither has LSU. I don't think Ohio St has either. Neither has Oklahoma, Nebraska, or Miami or Penn State.

    So of the most successful college programs the past twenty years....(save Florida State, whom when Brad Johnson was there he was a backup) none have produced a SB winner.

    Purdue has produced two. Stanford has produced two. Ole Miss one. Schools in Big Conferences but not themselves powerhouses can, and do, produce just as good a QB as the powerhouse schools.
     
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  17. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Well stated.

    The take-away from all that should be that more often than not, the best quarterbacks are developed (Romo, Hasselbeck, Young), not drafted (Marino, Manning.) The latter are the exception, the former are what we should be hoping for from Beck and/or Henne.
     
  18. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Again you take things to a completely ridiculous level. :pity:

    Please point out where I said I was a "Cam supporter". Why is it hard for you to grasp the fact that people can be objective without being a blind follower of a particular player or coach?

    And if you read Ozzie's quote and then compared that to the quotes that you and Stringer Bell posted in this thread then you would see that Cam does infact have a say when it comes to personnel moves, he may not have final say but he does get to share his input and Ozzie said flat out that he values him for that. So you can continue to play this game of twisting words and deflecting the conversation with silliness, but that doesn't change the fact that you were dead wrong on this subject.

    Please try to keep the conversation on the level.

    So you've already decided that Beck is a bust?

    Should this FO continue down the same path and make the same mistakes or should they learn from them? Should they stick to their original plan of rebuilding and developing young talent or should they bring in former Parcells players (aging players at that) if it means holding back our youngins'?

    Again, Beck has played just as well as Henne and McCown, if Beck is a bust then by your logic Henne is a bust and should be let go (We found out so much sooner than with Beck!!! Cut him now!!!) and McCown is an obvious bust (He's had too much time!). And for that matter, again using your logic, Pennington is a bust as well because he just can't seem to stay healthy. So where would that leave us? It would leave us without anyone to man the QB spot.

    The simple fact is that this team has thrown away too many assets and we can't continue down that road. You don't throw away young talent after only 1 year unless it's blatantly obvious that he can't get the job done and so far that doesn't describe John Beck unless you completely throw all logic and objectivity out the window. Manny Wright was blatantly obvious, John Beck isn't Manny Wright.

    And as we pointed out before, Parcells is not infallible, he can and has made several errors in judgment before and will make more errors in the future.

    This is a team that is rebuilding and needs to make sure that every young talent on the roster is thoroughly evaluated before moving on, that's what rebuilding teams do and that's how they get better. Now the question is, are we still a rebuilding team or did Parcells change his mind like he so often has before and are we now in "retooling" mode or worse "win now" mode? Is the signing of Pennington and the possible arrivals of aging Terry Glenn and injured LeCharles Bentley a sign that the FO has shifted direction? If so, then I would really have to question whether or not they are the right FO to fix this mess of a 1-15 team. I don't want the Phins to turn into the Parcells Jets that signed a bunch of aging and average players in order to "win now" and end up in cap hell before Parcells decides to hit the road. This FO said that this was a rebuilding team and that a turnaround wouldn't happen overnight, I took them at their word and I would hope that they stick to that plan.

    :lol:

    You know, in Club we had a few polls going asking who we thought was the odd man out when it came to the 4 QB's, McCown lost in a landslide 101-17-1. The majority of the people felt that McCown was the odd man out because there really is no place on this team for a 7 year vet that can't even outperform 2 inexperienced QB's. Another poll asked who we'd like to see get a shot at the QB spot should Pennington get injured (which his history suggests is a very real possibility) and the results were again a landslide, 45 for Beck and 5 for Henne.

    Now are all of these people blind homers who can't be objective and only want to see "their boy" get special treatment? Or are these people diehard fans of their favorite team and they want to see this team do everything they can to turn around this franchises fortunes by thoroughly evaluating every single player on the roster? Would these same people want to see Beck start over Henne if there was any evidence that Henne was "outperforming" Beck?

    How much time do we give them?

    If Long can't cut it, do we drop him when the season is over?

    If we go 4-12, does Sparano get the boot? What about Ireland? What about Parcells?

    If Merling and Langford don't win a starting job in their first year, should we cut them during week 2 of preseason next year?

    You know, this argument that Beck is a bust in every single thread is very reminisent of the "Ronnie is a bust" and "Jason Allen is a bust" threads from another board and that isn't the type of conversation that we want here. I would hope that everyone here would do their best to make sure that this board doesn't lose it's quality by exaggerating one player's performance and implying that another player is a bust when their performance says otherwise. So far none of the QB's (Beck, Henne, McCown) have pulled away from the pack.

    And if the Dolphins had listened to those impatient fans, we wouldn't have Ronnie who showed what he could do when he got the ball 20+ times a game with a decent OL infront of him and we wouldn't have Jason Allen who was one of our best defensive players in the 2nd half of last year and who is currently our starting safety. Getting rid of them after one year would have been a serious waste of talent and noone wants to see this FO make the mistake of wasting young talent.

    Listen, I hope we do well and I know you want the Phins to do well too, but this year may be a struggle and we shouldn't make rush judgments on our players if we have another poor season. Rebuilding takes a while and one bad season doesn't make a coach a failure, just look at Belichick as an example. :up:
     
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  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, but I did read John Feinstein's book. Brian Billick barely had a say on personnel for that team. He would say what the team needed, not who.
     
  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree 100% with your position (is Purdue considered a big school? I guess, it's a big ten) I see this myth perpetuated over and over again. QBs that play a lot don't get drafted. QBs that don't play at all don't get drafted. Tom Brady was drafted.

    Tom Brady started every game in 1998 and 1999 for Michigan. he is also Third, Yes 3rd, in Michigan history with 442 completions.

    Where did this myth that he barely started in Michigan come from? And why doesn't anyone check it? Takes two seconds. You can start here:
    http://stats.ath.umich.edu/football/footstart.php
     
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  21. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You guys are arguing/debating different things. Final say, and say/input, are two separate things. You're stating Cam doesn't have final say, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.

    l2g's position is while Cam doesn't have final say, he has a lot of input.

    Agree?
     
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  22. StLouisFinFan

    StLouisFinFan New Member

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    Great post. Well said.
     
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  23. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Talk about taking things to a ridiculous level...:wink2:

    I'm not going to cover everyone of your points, but I am going to address this last paragraph, and its implications, because its sums up your TOTAL AND COMPLETE misunderstanding of, at least, what I am saying.

    I have NEVER said Beck is a bust. Never. I have never said we need a timetable on any player or coach. Never. I have never said any player has to perform at any level by any arbitrary date...ever.

    And the reason I emphasize that, is because if you understood that, you wouldn't have needed to write that "straw man" of a post.

    I like Beck, I want Beck to do well, I hope Beck stays. But the FO should not keep Beck simply because of where he was drafted. There have been plenty of other drafted QBs, drafted way ahead of where Beck was drafted, that have proved to be busts.

    Either Beck can play or he cannot. If he can, I hope we keep him. If he cannot, he should be cut.

    And if the coaching staff does choose to cut him (regardless of what a bunch of message board VIPS say) I will support that decision until it is proven wrong.

    This idea that I have already made a decision vis a vis Beck is ludicrous. Yet you posted a huge long post using ludicrous logic to suggest that somehow I would think that if Long is bad this year he should be cut, and so on and so forth. The whole tone, tenor, and logic of the post was absurd. It was totally off point when addressed to me, that I somehow want Beck (and every other player that doesn't perform in the first year cut) when I have EXPLICITLY stated otherwise. I don't know what else I can do to make you see it. Its there.

    If the coaching staff deems that player cannot play and there are better people on the team, the coaching staff should keep the best player, bottom line, end of story. I don't know how much more plain I can make it.

    If anyone has ideas on how to simplify this so it has universal understanding, I would love to hear them.
     
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  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Suncoast, I think I can say for myself, is that ... we feel it is way to early for the coaching staff to make that decision already. That's all. They may be right, they may be wrong. But after just one year? Way too early. That's all I'm saying. Beck may indeed never get it. But to judge that off of 4 games he should have not been in (he only had two weeks of snaps before his first start, in a brutal stretch of games) and one bad week of practice. He had what Sparano said the best of any QBs in the offseason. He has not been bad the last two weeks, some may say pretty damn good.

    how in the world does the coaching staff come to the decision he is no good, after that? that's all i'm saying!
     
  25. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    I certainly hope it does. CB in particular but I guess that's just my preferences for CB's.
     
  26. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    It's not hard to misunderstand repeated comments implying that Beck is a failure, that he's nothing more than a backup, comparing him to Eddie Moore, Jamar Fletcher, David Klingler, Andre Ware and Ryan Leaf, that Henne has "obviously outplayed him" when it isn't the case, and trying to pass off your opinion of Beck as Parcells opinion of him.

    And there are plenty more...

    It's not hard to see that you don't have any faith in Beck, that you're ready to move on and that you are exaggerating Henne's and McCown's performance in order to paint Beck as the man standing on the outside looking in. You can call it ludicrous and ridiculous, but your comments are there for everyone to read and they speak for themselves.

    So the question remains, if you already made up your mind about Beck (see above and I'll pull more if you like), then how much time do we give Henne, Long, Merling and Langford?
     
  27. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I would agree that for me and you it would be impossible for us to judge a player after one year. But the coaching staff has been doing this for decades. Henning has been a football coach for longer than I've been born and I'm 42 years old.

    I hope they keep Beck, I think he can be a valuable player on this team, and I think they will keep him...BUT, if they don't, its because they've seen guys that NEVER get it before, and to them, he looks like one of them.

    All I am saying is that the coaches know what to look for in a player far better than you or me.
     
  28. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I do think all of those players have talent. Leaf had talent. A.Ware had talent. So did Jamar and Eddie Moore. In that regard, Beck (and every other person on the team as well) is just llike them.

    You are confused as to why I bring them up. I have faith in Beck. I have faith that he can make this team and be a valuable (backup) player for years. At some point, like those other "talented" players, the coaches will make a decision. Remember when JJ cut Norman Hand in favor of a guy named Barron Tanner? Tanner was a nobody, Hand was an all pro. It happens. We can only hope for the best.

    Beck clearly, to this point, hasn't shown that he has what it takes to be a starter. Perhaps, in time he will. Perhaps, that day never comes.

    Its why I wanted to address the QB position early while getting criticized by you and others. And on that note, no doubt, I was correct in my thinking.

    Hopefully, whatever decision the coaches make, its the right one as well.

    I don't think you and I are that far apart. I am willing to give you the last word (provided I am not taken out of context again) and lets agree that we BOTH want whats best for the Fins. Hell, we all do. Heres to ya! GO FINS!!!
     
  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I would be surprised if we spend a 1st rounder on CB. I kinda think it will be a OLB. We're also going to need a game changing receiver and a TE. Basically thats what I think our first 4 picks will be...OLB,CB,TE, WR depending of course if we get one earlier through trade or free agency. Actually WR may have to be addressed through free agency or trade next year uness we use a first day pick on one. Not sure yet if there is going to be alot of depth next year. The order is up for debate though I dont think the positions are
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Maybe Adamprez, the current FO has a penchant for trying to fix whole units instead of going the one here, one there route, IMO we could see LB and CB's next year, Goodman and Allen are going to both brush 30, and our LB's are nothing really to brag about.

    I can see us dropping money for a Wr though, and it will be helpful if Fasano pans out, that would really open up some acquisition options for us next year.
     
  31. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    If we pass on guys like Michael Crabtree or Jenkins for a OLB I will be sorely disappointed. I know Bill likes to develop from inside out but those skill spots take time to develop and you might as well begin early. Basically those 4 positions, CB, WR, OLB, TE (in order) are absolute must fills.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Especially Jenkins, we need a "all world" type OLB a bit more then a CB with our #1 pick this year, and we have 2 #2's, that could be a CB/CB or we could go CB/ILB/LB.

    I like the CB/OLB/ILB scenario better, we just spent the #9 pick on a Wr, we may as well try and squeeze some production out of Ted Ginn before we spend a high #1 on a Wr, realistically we should be picking #6-#12 next year, maybe a touch lower like #5.

    If we are that low (#5-#7), IMO you have to go All World OLB type over CB...they just are more productive in a 3-4.
     
  33. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Prepare to be disappointed, guys. I'm pulling for us to draft Malcolm Jenkins next year, but we'll probably come away with Rey Maualuga, barring a trade down.
     
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  34. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My girlfriend is interested in Beck too.
     
  35. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Although I would love to get Jenkins there is no way in hell I would be disappointed if we landed Maualuga.
     
  36. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    I'm pulling for Jenkins too and I too feel Maualuga is a likely pick. Wish it'd be the other way around but oh well.

    Honestly, you can't tell where we're going to pick but I like drafting LB's in later rounds than I do with CB's. We've had a great history at that and I've seen a lot of LB's drafted non-first who have had just as good a career as 1st rounders. But I really need to see where we're drafting before I make up my mind. Honestly, I wished we would've taken Dan Connor and a CB from that CB-rich draft.
     
  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    The one thing with Parcells CBs, is he doesnt need shut down corners. He places far more premium on the ability to support the run then most coaches (yes I know he's not the coach) His corners play scheme much like new england. Although getting a premium CB prospect would be great it might be a luxury in a Parcells defnse
     
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  38. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    I thought that too but with the league getting pass-happy, you could see that as a potential weakness. I know Patsies had Asante Samuel and Ty Law before that. In Dallas you had Anthony Henry and Terrence Newman (a high 1st round Parcells pick btw). Both are turnover generating CB's who you can trust to cover a WR and make a QB think twice about throwing in their general direction. Honestly, I do not see any CB on this roster who has those traits (Allen may be close but he certainly doesn't get picks and judging by how WR's have fared against us...).
     
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  39. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Although with the push out rule being a memory now I wonder how much thats going to effect the passing game. I'm a big believer that you need one shut down corner (two is a luxury unless you're Al Davis). But I'm not so sure Parcells feels the same way. Thye best CB he ever had on the Giants was Marc Collins. He really wants intelligent, hard hitting CBs. I think being a superior athelte comes third to those traits. Still I would love to draft a shut down corner. I';m just not so sure we will. Something I feel you share
     
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  40. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    Yea, my thoughts exactly. I pretty much envy what the Cowboys and Chargers have (and what the Patsies used to have). I will note though that Parcells has drafted players like Ty Law(23rd overall) and Terence Newman(5th overall in Parcells first draft in Dallas) in the first rounds so nothing's impossible. Both are the kinds of playmaking CB's I love to see as a former HS CB myself. Still, I think it's likely he'll draft OLB. I just wish it wasn't the case.
     
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