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wow. our qb has arived

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by caliphinfan, Nov 20, 2016.

  1. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    You must be referring to this post;

    "Evans is a tool, everyone knows that, hell, that's why he has a job, it's good to have a guy that everyone loves to hate.

    The Suh contract is bad, and IS going to hamstring this team for the next few years, the only way around that is to be absolutely stellar in the draft.

    Suh is overrated, he isn't really in the convo for best DT in the league, he's just outside that, 5th-7th best, he is John Randall jr, a disruptive PASSRUSHING DT, who is not that good against the run.

    Part of Suh's hype are his violent dirty plays, PART, as I said he is a top 5 type of talent, but we paid him as if he was historically great, and he's not that, and DT can only do so much.

    Suh get's moved by double teams, he always has, he can't anchor the point of attack, he is at his best rushing the passer with his superior athletic ability, not superior strength, very good strength for a passrusher, but not great strength for a DT."

    Suh got A LOT of credit for Detroit being a top D, and top run D last year, but they spent the last 4 years prior building a very good D to surround him with, so it was a team effort.

    So because of his huge contract, get ready to watch talent leave this team, I'm not sure how we're supposed to build a winner when we won't be able to keep some of our own talent due to his exorbitant contract, which is why Detroit let him go, he's not worth it.

    You can go ahead and put your comment back where you got it from, thanks!
     
  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Except Suh eats double teams and makes plays, and is playing very well against the run.
     
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  3. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    No that's not the post, lol. Not at all.

    Also lol @ "overrated" and "not even in the conversation for best DT". He might not be the best but he is ALWAYS in the conversation. So silly.

    "which is why Detroit let him go, he's not worth it." Guy.... Detroit offered 58 million guaranteed to our 60 million.... Miami took him.
     
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  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not sure I'd ever accuse a person of having "zero football knowledge" so I doubt I said that. But I totally agree that in multiple threads I thought Finster's viewpoint was ridiculous. Having said that, Suh's play last year seemed to suggest Suh maybe wasn't as elite as I and others hoped, but I definitely think this year he's playing at worst as a top 5 DT.
     
  5. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    uh... wat? Not as elite as you hoped? Didn't PFF say 2015 was Suhs best year?

    "In 2015, he ranked No. 16 among all interior players against the run, to go along with his No.3 ranking as a pass-rusher, trailing only Aaron Donald and J.J. Watt."
    "In 2015, Suh was one of the best defensive linemen in the NFL, producing his best single-season body of work as a pro."

    Also you might not have said 'zero football knowledge' verbatim, So you're right, however some of your posts @ finster on Suh stuck with me as some of the only posts I might have ever agreed with you on.



     
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  6. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Then you are not watching him, or you don't know what "eating double teams" means, he is routinely moved out of the way by doubles, and even 1 on 1 vs good Gs, teams do not hesitate to run his way.
     
  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think it was several things:

    1) I said before the season that I would judge him to a good degree on how good our run defense was with him in the lineup. Remember we got gashed up the middle before Suh? Well.. if anything we got gashed more with him. We ended up being one of the worst run defenses in the NFL!!

    2) He just didn't seem like he could get in the backfield as often as in Detroit for whatever reason.

    3) Early in the season he and others were getting pushed around.

    Anyway, I expected more when we signed him. But I do definitely think he's one of the best at his position, no question.
     
  8. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    As an aside.
    Ryan Tannehill's passer rating
    2016 (through week 12): 94.7
    Career: 86.4

    Andrew Luck's passer rating
    2016 (through week 12) 93.9
    Career: 86.3
     
  9. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    lol PFF is as flawed as your memory evidently is.
     
  10. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I guess I still just don't get it? You "expected more" from him when he signed with Miami and his first season in Miami was his best season yet? and he was top 3 at the position? idk. Doesn't make much sense to me. I expected a lot and he played damn good football.

    I mean.....us being "one of the worst run defenses in the NFL!!" goes way way beyond Suh.... Judging him as a single player and his body of work last season solely based on our overall run defense seems kind of silly, no? I mean as far as getting in the backfield goes he was rank 3 in pass rushing so IDK man.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  11. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    There are entire threads on this board collectively ****ting on you and your idiotic opinion about Suh. It was wrong then, it's still especially wrong today, and it'll be wrong next year too. Even people whose opinions you appear to value are suggesting your opinions about him are clueless. But yes, Everyone else is wrong!

    Just like Moore is better than Tannehill and we'd be lucky to ever get a 4th round pick for Tanny right? :wink2:
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  12. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Like I said.. I personally (and btw many others too) expected that with Suh in the lineup our entire DL would be a force to be reckoned with. Of course it depends on more than one player, but that seriously seemed like a realistic expectation. In a thread where I defended that viewpoint I pointed out how Detroit's run defense gradually got better each year under Suh (from 24th in 2010 to #1 in 2014).

    And ultimately it's the success of the team that matters, so how he helps the team IMO should be taken into account. If you disagree that's fine. But that's why even though I thought he was one of the best DT's my expectations weren't met last year. This year is better (not so much statistically but visually).. who knows, it took 5 years for Detroit's run defense to get to #1, maybe it'll happen here too.
     
  13. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Plenty of people also agreed Suh balled out last year. Coyle, scheme, other players, I mean the amount of factors at play are huge here so it seems a bit ridic. You are someone who uses stats to justify damn near everything, but choose to ignore them for Suh on this because of the collective team run d grade? Just weird I guess. Top 16 against the run among ALL interior line players and top 3 pass rusher.... How exactly do we have a terrible run defense with an anchor like that in the middle? Pretty easy to see the answer would be elsewhere, no?
     
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  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The utility of stats for DT isn't anywhere near as great as for QB because there are so few in comparison. And PFF isn't a stat. It's just a subjective rating.

    Anyway, obviously scheme and coaching matter. But no one can dissect precisely how much which player affects what. That's precisely why it's worth looking at team stats to see the effect of individual players, even if they contribute only a smaller component of that stat.

    Point is.. Suh for me is at worst top 5, but last year was disappointing because for whatever reason the paper talent didn't mesh to produce a dominant DL. It's fine if you disagree.. no reason to go round and round.
     
  15. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Aaron Donald, Gerald McCoy, Geno Atkins and Fletcher Cox at the least are better than Suh imo, and I'd probably take Linval Joseph too tbh, that guy is a straight up ogre.

    Suh has always had this bugaboo, he lacks lane discipline at times, iow he "freelances" too much, and Kap took advantage of that a couple times.

    As I've always maintained, Suh is one of the best DTs in the league, he can do things others can't with his amazing speed and agility, which is actually what leads him into freelancing, and that can lead to big plays, the only problem is that it can lead to big plays on both teams.

    He is avg anchoring vs the run, but above avg pursuing runners, the problem with that is at DT you'd rather have the former than the latter, which is like having good gravy on an avg piece of beef, it makes the beef go down better but you'd rather just have a good piece of beef.
     
  16. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    While I tend to agree with you on the football I have to disagree with you on the cooking analogy. It takes no special skill to cook beef, and even if the beef isn't top quality there are many many things you can do to compensate. Making a good sauce on the other hand takes real skill. There's a reason the saucier traditionally is the 2ic to the chef de cuisine.
     
  17. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I won't disagree on that Pauly, even simple gravy(drippings, flour, water) is often times shaky, and that's the few that don't just buy a packet or a jar, and yes, now that I think about it, gravy, as easy as it is to make, is more difficult than the roast itself.

    I'm also of the opinion that good gravy can turn an avg meal into a meal fit for a king, however I'd rather have the good roast, but I'd just make gravy for that too so I really can't argue.

    I was going to use an icing and cake reference, but who was I kidding, avg cake? everybody loves cake, avg or not, and I happen to be one of the few who doesn't like cake, I much prefer pie.
     
  18. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I'm a professional chef. You chill my soul with the suggestion of buying a packet gravy. Let us not speak of it ever again.

    Even the simplest pan gravy takes more skill to get right than the roast. Then if you start kicking it up a few levels using stock, wine, Dijon mustard, spices, etcetera it can become a true work of art.
     
  19. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This thread gets more comical each day... even with a 6 game winning streak.

    Now lets complain/debate about our DT who's one of the best in the league. Great idea. :thumbdown:
     
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  20. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    Suh is NOT just a passrushing DT! He disrupts EVERYTHING!

    This is the first time I've ever heard that he lacks strength for the run game. Tell that to the people he tosses aside as he stuffs short yardage plays over and over, or bust through and chases the qb whose wetting himself.

    Anyone under 350lbs can get combo blocked out of a play. Yes he sometimes loses gap integrity and goes for the big play guessing where the play is going. The guy is an animal!
     
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  21. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    I think not... Lets see how the season ends.
     
  22. RealDolphinsFan2

    RealDolphinsFan2 Member

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    BAHAHAHAHAH A HAHAHAHA! Truth exposed! My job is done here folks, I'm sure I'll get banned soon for being too real. Have a nice life and go Dolphins!!!!!!!
     
  23. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    It's not an aside though, it has more to do with the thread title than the Suh arguments. :chuckle:
     
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  24. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tannehill in 2016 with Turner/Thomas: 100 of 156 for 1272 yards with 6 tds and 7 ints and a 83.6 QBR



    Tannehill in 2016 after Turner and Thomas fired: 117 of 173 for 1302 yards with 9tds and 1int and a 104.7 QBR.


    So, yeah... The stats match what I saw. They were fired October 11, after the Tennessee game if you want to check my numbers.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
     
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  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's pretty damning.
     
  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You guys aren't getting my point. It's been said many times here that Tannehill plays well with a good OL, and the argument before this season was that we had a 6-1 record from 2014 and 2015 when Pouncey, Albert and James were healthy. In other words, you guys assumed that in those games the OL was "good".

    Fine.. then note that: 1) Dallas Thomas (by FAR the biggest culprit) played in ALL those games, and 2) Turner played in all the 2015 games. You can't suddenly turn around and say that the OL was bad because those two played.

    As far as this year is concerned, sure the entire team played a lot better after Thomas and Turner were released, but they continued to play with a never die attitude after we lost 4 key starters on the OL. Furthermore, Tannehill's 2nd best game ever IMO was the SF game (after the SD game) and we didn't have our key starters on the OL. So you can't claim it's the players on the OL that's making the difference. It's coaching.
     
  27. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It just seems like such a large and obvious factor that you'd have to be purposefully obstinate to try and attribute the improvement to any other factor. Obviously Tannehill has continued to develop and he and the rest of the offensive players have grown more comfortable with the offense. And Gase has helped with Tannehill's confidence. But Gase's biggest contribution is getting rid of two players that on their own destroyed multiple plays and drives every game. Literally in the span of one game Tannehill's rating jumps 35 points (from the previous game) and over the next 6 games he never has a rating as low as his average when Turner/Thomas were there. It's just not reasonable to pretend that Tannehill or the coaching suddenly improved in that one week. The obvious and simple answer is that the supporting play was better b/c they subtracted two players that so often destroyed plays and drives on their own. But people want to bend over backwards rather than admit that they were wrong about what a huge factor that was.
     
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  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point. Yes, coaching has had a positive effect. So has not having Thomas and Turner on the field. Yes, we were down starters, BUT the replacements were not Thomas and Turner. When it was them, the oline was awful. Without them, the oline has been workable.

    This isn't hard to understand. It's only hard if you're trying to find some way of defending the old position that Tannehill's pocket presence was so bad he made the oline look terrible, and not the other way around.
     
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  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    My point is only that (as stated before) IF Tannehill proves me wrong, it will be because I underestimated what a good coach could do to help his play. It won't be because my assumptions about how the OL or running game affects QB play was wrong.

    And no I don't think Tannehill made the OL look bad except for some extra sacks on the stat sheet, but there is no question in my mind his pocket presence was bad before this recent run regardless of how good the OL was.
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The thing you have wrong, is not whether or not, or even how much, OL play affects the QB, but how much, specifically Thomas and Turner affected QB play. So, yes, you certainly should be questioning your assumptions on those two players, and the effect they had on the QB and the offense.
     
  31. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    Someone shoot me and put me out of my misery.
     
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Oh no question they were bad (especially Thomas). No disagreement there. Just pointing out that it's hard to explain the results we're seeing due to personnel changes precisely because: 1) the SF game shows you can have all the key OL players out and Tannehill is now playing better than ever before, and 2) getting rid of those two raised the play of everyone, including the defense!

    That tells me the coach is getting his message through to everyone on the team and that it's not a specific issue with how those two players affect QB play. But yeah.. no question they were bad players. I just think you give Philbin the same players on the OL we had in the SF game and you see crap too. You guys would then be saying how crappy those players are.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Just put me on ignore. More humane than someone shooting you.
     
  34. iamtiv

    iamtiv Active Member

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    I think the 'eye test' with Tannehill is what matters. When you watch him, you're either seeing a decisive, smart accurate thrower or you're not and he, himself, has been the one to cast doubt upon himself at times with how he's handled situations during games. Just because your line is struggling on some plays doesn't mean you don't have to do whatever you can do to avoid pressure and run for first downs when there are opportunities. Tannehill has 'frozen up' on too many occasions, historically.
    Now, part of this was a cumulative effect of all the pressure but a lot of it was him being the player he always had been, the player that scouts discounted during the draft process of 2012. He was considered a 'project QB' because he didn't make plays when the going got tough.
    The fact that a QB with his physical metrics and arm was not being considered a consensus top-5 pick means that he had serious holes in his game and raised serious concerns among the scouts that watched him.
    Those doubts were shown to be valid during most of Tannehill's tenure, but he was a better fit to be drafted later in the 1st to a team with more attributes to allow him safety and a seat on the bench behind a veteran QB.
    Instead, he came to a team with mediocre everything and he produced mediocre results, which is kind of amazing in and of itself because I don't think any QB would've won with the rosters and coaching we had in the Joe Philbin era. Remember who we had at WR for Tannehill's first 2 years? Yuck!
    But it still came down to, too often, Tannehill folding under pressure and making the big mistake instead of the great play. He wasn't a player that could overcome adversity and often brought adversity to plays where opportunity for success existed.
    We've seen that. We've seen him get sacked on plays where we know better QBs could've easily avoided the pressure and run for a first down, or just shift a couple yards in the pocket and hit a receiver, or see guys open down the field instead of just looking to dump to a check-down.
    Some of us assign more value to his failure than his success and some of use the opposite.
    I think what the 'haters' don't see is when the other players RT is compared to fail sometimes. I think it's telling that Tannehill won his first 2 matchups against the mighty Russell Wilson.
    In my mind, I see plays like that 4th and 10 vs the Ravens a few years ago when RT slung a rocket to Brandon Gibson who just fell down for no reason after the catch instead of running to FG range or better. Or the play against the Carolina Panthers when Tannehill put a bomb right off Mike Wallace's (not very) outstretched hands for what would've been a winning TD.

    What I will say about Tannehill is that the attribute that gets him slammed by critics, his calm demeanor vs 'fiery competitiveness' has been much more of an asset than a liability. The kid seems unflappable and with everything that he's dealt with in his career it's kept him afloat through the storms and has allowed him to push on through tough times.
    I think earlier in his career some bad stuff would snow-ball on him but not for quite a while now. Every down is a chance to make a play and what happened before, good or bad, doesn't matter.
    Tannehill has taken great strides this year in terms of aggressiveness and lack of hesitation, with few exceptions. I think he has taken the bull by the horns more now than at any point in his career. Adam Gase has given Tannehill the support and the 'blank check' to make plays and not be looking over his shoulder. Tannehill ran the ball more vs the 'Niners than I've ever seen him and even when plays didn't work they still worked because of what the effort represents and what opposing D-coordinators saw on film.
    The announcers said that the read-option runs by RT weren't fooling the D because they started expecting him to hold the ball. Good. Now, when he hands it off there the RB will have a better hole cuz the D will track to Tannehill.
    What else we've learned about Tannehill is that he's often one of the most accurate passers in the league and probably the most accurate passer while in motion. But if defenses want to keep him in the pocket and be cautious that way, Tannehill is plenty good in the pocket, too.
     
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  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    This post is a staggering example of arguing about something you don't understand.

    For your post to make sense there must be an assumption that starting players are equal in ability to one another and back ups are equal to each in ability as well.

    I'm going to try (though likely in vain) to explain this one more time so you finally understand, (because I'm an idiotic glutton for punishment).

    The oline has 5 positions. When our starters have been healthy in the past, we have 2 exceptional olinemen in Pouncey & Albert, one solid olineman in James and two league worst in Turner and Thomas. Those players, give a net effect of an average oline, not a great one, but an average one. When people talk to you about the unicorn line, they are talking about an average oline as explained in the previous sentence. When one of James, Pouncey or Albert was hurt, that meant a third league worst player came in, Fox. That made the line go from average to terrible as you now have 3/5 of the line as league worst. None of this has anything to do with any specific olineman as if they were unique snowflakes. So saying the line needs to be not league worst, doesn't mean we specifically need to have Pouncey, Albert & James, it just meant we needed them to be simply...not terrible like Turner, Thomas & Fox. Steen and Urbick are not league worst like Turner and Thomas. Which is why I said earlier, for your premise to be true all back ups must be equally bad/good.

    When Thill and the team was played at a top level, it is because they had 3 olineman that are not league worst playing. That is why we point to the 7-1 run from seasons past and also the current streak. I'll say it again, it doesn't matter that specifically Albert, Pouncey & James are playing, it just matters that horrible, no good, very bad players are playing in 3/5 of the line.

    So now that we understand why and how the line was bad, let's look at the rest of what has been explained to you and you ilk over and over and over...

    When a line is that bad, the QB has a handful of options to help mitigate the damage.

    - Running game
    - Scrambling
    - Audibles
    - A coaching staff using short & quick plays that also provide help in slowing the pass rush

    What did Thill have available to him to counter that objectively terrible oline?

    - Running game
    Nope. We ran the fewest amount of times in the league over Lazor's tenure. I know, I know, you're going to argue that playing form behind means teams run less, which is true, however, that doesn't mean you run the fewest amount of times in the league. Also look at our current streak where we weren't always playing with a lead.

    - Scrambling
    Nope. We can argue between him not having good scrambling ability or whether the type of pressure he was getting (interior jail break variety) didn't lend itself to escaping, but regardless, it was tool not available.

    - Audibles
    Nope. Lazor took Thill's audible power away form him. We can pretend that was Thill's fault, but seeing that Gase has not only allowed him to audible but also have input on the gameplan, while we're on a 6 game win streak, its obvious where the problem lied.

    - A coaching staff using short & quick plays that also provide help in slowing the pass rush
    Sort of. Lazor had many short passes but they were designed and called poorly. From not giving a lot of help to the olineman in the form of extra blockers to having bunched up WRs all playing short, (meaning they were all within all of 5 yards of each other along with their defenders which made easy to get the tackle after the catch but before the sticks) he wasn't putting the offense he had into the best position he could. Like Philbin, Lazor was trying to fit round pegs into square holes instead of adapting to his situation.

    Now all of this is common football sense and all has been explained every way possible. Our argument has been pretty much proven true at this point.

    If you don't grasp it now...well...look within.
     
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  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah Fin-D you didn't even address the issue I described in the post you quoted or in the other posts in the back-and-forth with resnor. The question was this: IF Tannehill continues this play and proves I was mistaken in saying we should be 100% done with him, was I wrong about anything else except the effect of coaching on him?

    I'll admit my assumptions about the effect of coaching would be wrong in that scenario, but the arguments I gave show the data doesn't suggest assumptions about the effect of OL, running game, audibling, etc... were wrong. And nothing you just said counteracts the arguments I gave, whether you understand that or not.

    btw.. none of what I wrote assumes all players on the OL have to have equal ability.

    In any case, from past experience I know there's no point in trying to explain to you what was already explained, so we'll just leave it at that.
     
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  37. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It's so obvious that those two were destroying plays. It's nonsensical for anybody to pretend that they weren't wrong about the huge impact they had.
     
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  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, if he continues this play, it shows you were wrong about everything.

    It would show that we were right, he needed good coaching and a better than terrible oline.
     
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  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I knew it was pointless. You simply don't understand the game of football. Everything you've ever said was addressed in my post.

    Coaching is important. It has played a part and I addressed that. There's also the part where coaches believing in a player helps too. But the simple fact of the matter, is that Thill has played more or less the same he always has, (with steady improvements he's displayed for his entire career) its just that our line isn't made up of 3/5 of the worst players at their position when there's injuries to Pouncey, Albert and/or James. It really isn't more complicated than that and its been literally proven to you.
     
  40. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Apr 27, 2013
    Brazil
    Great post.

    Agree with pretty much everything you said. Tannehill was not without his faults when he came in the league, so we shouldn't pretend he was already a top 10 QB ever since we drafted him. He's made great strides over the years, even while facing lots of adversity. He was never a bad QB though, as many others have insisted.

    The thing is, he is still growing... every single year he has improved, despite having a bad supporting cast most of his career. I think we'll see Tannehill really blossom after a couple of years under Gase, by the time he's in his early thirties, FWIW. And by blossom, I mean, top 5 QB in the league, maybe even better. These past few games have shown me what he really is capable of with good coaching and good players surrounding him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
    Mcduffie81 and resnor like this.

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