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Wilson Credited but OL unsung heroes - A look at OL play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Aug 26, 2016.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    In the recent pre-season matchup between the Seahawks and the Cowboys there have been a few highlight posts about Russel Wilson being a magician and escaping defensive pressure to throw for a mid-range TD. I think the media is missing something far better and which I dream of seeing as a regular part of Dolphins play.

    I like Wilson and we know he can be quick but I don't think this shows anything spectacular on his part. If anything, the trouble could arguably be attributed to a hesitation from Wilson who could have run forward twice into lanes created by the center, #76, but instead he chooses to turn his back and run and then narrowly escapes a (bad?) tackle by #99. I don't want to focus on that though, QB's make mistakes, it happens. Instead, this one, IMO, should be chalked up to great OL play.

    There's excellent protection on all sides and they work together, never giving up but keeping as clean a pocket as possible and then when it collapses moving to protect Wilson on the run. On the left side the OL dominates a 3 on 2 scenario but watch #63 especially who manages to block his man and then move to lock down the left side as his teammate takes over, switching back and forth between linemen. 76 is solid in the middle just stonewalling his assignment. Then on the right #79 protects Wilson for a good while before losing his man, #99, due to some fast movement and Wilson's run backwards. However, even then recovers to get back in and ensures his man, the wrong-footed 99, goes down. Meanwhile the center, #76, who was solid the whole time turns around when Wilson bolts, and then moves to positions himself to protect Wilson when he cuts back and loops around thus giving him time to make the throw.

    It's awesome to watch. The OL stay almost entirely locked in and focused the whole time and committed to protecting Wilson 100%.

    This is the sort of OL play I dream of the seeing from the Dolphins OL on a consistent basis. QB mistake or not (they happen), this sort of OL teamwork, commitment and effort is what can turn bad situations (with sacks for big losses) into 'miracle' TD plays. We know Tannehill has the ability to make throws on the run - there have even been times I felt like it was his best 'position' for making throws. If the Dolphins can learn to give him time like Seattle do here for Wilson then I look forward to seeing more 'clutch miracles' and less disappointing drives.

    Here's the link to the highlight play by Wilson on NFL.com


    Props to the OL!
     
  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Of course the OL deserves credit, but Tannehill doesn't make that play in the same situation. Wilson is special. His spin/rollout is the best since Tarkenton IMO
     
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  3. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Does Wilson make that play without great OL play?
     
  4. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    that's not what I said. That play is made by a combination of OL and Wilson's escapability.
     
  5. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Right, but if you look at, he only actually escapes one tackle. All other defenders are kept off him by the OL. The OL buys him all the time in the world to do what he needs to do. It was IMO a better play by the OL than an escape by Wilson.

    But I don't particularly care about a QB making a turn and escaping a tackle. I'm interested in that great OL play, and would love to see the Phins OL work like that on a consistent basis.
     
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  6. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Dear god. :jump:
     
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  7. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    tough to compare a 5-11 QB and 6-4 QB making quick moves in the pocket, i´m not sure Cam Newton could have made that play with his size and the pocket collapsing like it did
     
  8. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I ever click on another Russell Wilson thread I hope someone punches me in the face.
     
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  9. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    "Only escapes one tackle"?

    That's not common ya know.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Good grief. I write a whole post covering the efforts of the OL with about two sentences on Wilson, I specifically say I'm not interested in discussing Wilson, and I end up having to defend those few sentences and nothing else.

    I'm not denying Wilson can be quick. I'm saying that I would rather consider the efforts of the OL in keeping him upright and giving him time.

    If no one's interested in talking about OL play, then fine, but I'm not going to discuss Wilson's escape any further.

    Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
     
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  11. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This kind of thing is pretty common for Wilson. He rushes 100-120 times per year and only throws about 400-450 times a year. Looking at the data his rush-to-pass ratio is insanely high and always has been. It's up around 25-30% where as most QBs are under 10%.

    Point is, Russell Wilson is encouraged to do this stuff and D-lines have a hard time keeping up. The O-line does a great job but they have the advantage with a QB who is jumping outside the pocket on every other pass. The pocket was clean on this play and it's likely that a traditional pocket passer would've gotten a completion after stepping up.

    Wilson on the other hand looks to extend plays and that's part of the reason his YPA is so high. He can evade pressure until guys like Doug Baldwin come wide open.

    I honestly hope this brand of football doesn't become the norm in the NFL because it makes too many other variables almost irrelevant. Strategy and intellect kind of flies out the window and gets replaced by one guy breaking everything down. CBs have a hard time keeping up. The O-line looks way better than it really is. A lot of OCs dream of having a QB that can control the game like that.

    To me, the O-line is good enough for this stuff to work so I think Galant's point is valid. As someone who generally would be called a "hater" in regards to all things Seattle, I hope at some point the NFL finds a way to apply enough pressure to Wilson that he can't keep looking like the hero. Wilson is getting away with doing something that most young QBs would get criticized for. You're not supposed to actively jump out of the pocket at the slightest hint of pressure. That is a weakness that says he's probably not that great a pocket passer in all reality. If he was forced to stay in the pocket and his O-line was forced to play traditionally, I don't either would look half as good as they do with Wilson playing sandlot-style QB.

    To me, D-lines just haven't quite caught up to the way Seattle plays offensively. To me, if/when Russell Wilson turns his back to the LOS and starts moving backwards...D-lineman should NOT chase after him. They wind up taking bad angles and he beats them to the outside with his speed. If D-linemen just stopped when Russell Wilson turned his back on them he'd too often wind up 10- to 15-yards behind the LOS on his own accord. A QB that's making throws that are that much longer than they need to be will end up forcing more balls, throwing more INTs, etc.

    To me, D-lines just need to get better at containing this but unfortunately there is only 1 offense that does it like that. Even Cam Newton does not do this stuff.
     
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  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's made all of his plays the last 4 years without great OL play. The one team who can challenge the Dolphins in worst oline are the Seahawks.
     
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  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    "That play".
     
  14. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    To me part of the issue was calling Seattle's OLine "unsung heroes" in the thread title. They've been objectively bad in pass protection for 4 years. One preseason snap of okay blocking doesn't make them heroes. And this is still a play that only Wilson and maybe Aaron Rodgers makes.
     
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  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Someone always trying to bring that dude down..dudes on a hall of fame path..folks should just admit their mistakes, stop trying so hard to make him look anything then what he is, which is a great QB period..boring topic at this point..
     
  16. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Please tell me you're not talking about me.

    Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
     
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  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Didn't Wilson lead all QBs last season in being the cause of the most sacks?
     
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  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    At one point in the season yes, according to NFL Network. I don't know if it stayed/ended that way.
     
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  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not really, just getting in before they do..you called their oline unsung heroes, which besides that play just isn't true..
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    didnt he lead qbs in everything else..when you an elites,Amaker you take more risks..I can live with that.
     
  21. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    wilson will regress now that he's hit the age where the quick twitch muscles start to disappear. the only thing he's exceptional at is escaping a pass rush and that is all quick twitch. up to now the best comparison has been fran tarkenton who played for a similar type team the vikings team with a powerful running game and the famed purple people eater defense of the 70s. as a pocket passer he is average at best. last year's little run late in the season had more to do with them playing horrible defenses than him improving as a pocket passer. he thrives on plays breaking down. running a play as its drawn up is not something he's good at. average at best. so as good defenses now have the book on him and he continues to lose quick twitch muscles i expect him to get worse and worse. but we've seen this play before. randall cunningham, kordell stewart, michael vick, colin kaepernick, RG III. They all end up the same in the end
     
  22. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Right, but I was only talking about that play.

    Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
     
  23. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    you dont understand. wait till week 1. they will bash tannehill and praise wilson every play. it will be surreal
     
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  24. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Haha.

    Re-read your ridiculous post about Wilson losing his fast twitch muscles in his 5th season.

    You like the others, HATE him because he is flat out better than Ryan.

    **disclaimer for those who NEED it. THIS IS NOT A SLIGHT AT RYAN, WILSON IS JUSTBA BEAST


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  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the guy had a 25 to 1 td ratio in the 2nd half of the season but he's going to regress? Your theory on his quick twitch muscles is not accurate imo..

    The dude has room to spare for a lost step, because he's so far ahead of everyone on defense as far as movement goes and separation..
     
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  26. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Well then he should have another fine year. I look at the first half and the playoffs as better indicators of who he is. Guess we'll find out this year which is the real wilson.
     
  27. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Can't you just hope that our QB can do better?
     
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  28. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I'm not hoping, I'm expecting it
     
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  29. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This notion that Wilson is only good from outside the pocket needs to die. Just his second year in the league, and the year his team won a superbowl

    http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/russell-wilson-2013-passing-stats-insideoutside-pocket/
    And 2015

    http://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-se...umbers-behind-russell-wilsons-historic-season

    I don't have 2014 numbers if anyone has those that'd be great.

    Wilson as good as he is outside the pocket, is even better within the pocket. He is on the HOF path. He needs to sustain this success to get there but so far, he is.
     
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  30. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    The only way,Wilson sees the hall of fame is if he purchases an admission ticket and every defensive coach will tell you that the game plan is keep him in the pocket but play with your pretty little numbers
     
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    How much of his success in the pocket is related to teams playing defense to keep him from scrambling? IOW, are teams assigning lbs to spy on him, etc, allowing there to be fewer defenders covering receivers?
     
  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'll be surprised if Wilson has many more top notch seasons. I think people forget how dominant Vick was in his prime, but once his running fell off, he was never close to as good. I remember not buying into the Vick hype, and then, he sustained for long enough, and I started to buy in, then he fell apart. LOL
     
  33. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

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    Of course this is the truth, but most football fans don't have the football iq to realize this...yet. If Wilson was really an elite/hof qb, he wouldn't have gone down 31 to Carolina or needed a miracle onside kick to get him to a sb with that d and run game. Its common sense, but people have agendas. Maybe if rt outplays Wilson week 1, people will begin to understand, but somehow I doubt it.
     
  34. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It's actually interesting to compare the perception of what happened to Vick in terms of his passing game vs. what the stats say as his running ability fell off. If you look at the correlation between passer rating or passing Y/A and either rushing Y/A or total rushing yards for Vick's career, it hovers around zero, meaning his passing efficiency was nearly unaffected by how big a threat he was as a runner.

    So if you're using Vick as a model, we can expect RW to keep posting way above average passing stats (he's averaging 101 passer rating when the league is around ~85) even when his scrambling ability goes down. Not saying this is what we should expect, but it is IF you use Vick as your model.

    Also, Vick was statistically average as a passer for his time. RW is statistically way above average, so you really shouldn't compare the two in the passing game.
     
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  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Vick's rating since 2010 was always about the same as it was previous, or lower, even going into the 60s. Given that the average passer rating has increased, it would certainly seem that as his run ability fell off, his passing also feel off.
     
  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I adjusted passer ratings before doing the calculation. The difference between adjusting and not adjusting is about 0.1 correlation units. So, you'll get anywhere from -0.26 to 0.11 correlation if you don't adjust, while adjusting gives you anywhere from -0.15 to 0.27. Thing is, those are just using all stats (years) equally, which one should be careful of doing because some years he didn't play many games. You take out some where he didn't play many games and it becomes more negative.

    Regardless, with or without adjusting, to your point about passer rating in the 60's, note that his highest rushing Y/A of 9.3 came with his lowest passer rating of 62.7 in his first year. And 2 of his 3 ratings in the 60's came in his first 3 years:
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VickMi00.htm
     
  37. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Russell Wilson is a much better player than Michael Vick. I'm not sure how this analogy is even drawn. Michael Vick didn't use his athletic ability to create passing opportunities. He used it to run the ball. Wilson leverages that ability much better, and is able to dictate defenses much more often.

    Beyond that, the rules are much different than they were when Vick played. Offensive line play is markedly worse. But more importantly, QBs are much more protected than they were in the past. Additionally, Russell Wilson is one of the best in the league at avoiding big hits. He knows when to slide, and does a good job at it.

    The idea that Wilson is going to lose his ability to evade defenders isn't really based on anything that is currently happening IMO. He isn't taking hits that would lead to that type of drop off.
     
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  38. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    A lot of irony in this post. Tom Brady lost a game 31-0 once, guess that means he's wasn't elite or a hall of famer...
     
  39. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

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    lol, as if there's no difference between the playoffs and regular season. Btw I believe RW had a 0.0 passer rating against gb in the PLAYOFFS 2 years ago, if not 0.0 close to that. Please remind me the last time a hof qb had two first half performances like RW had IN THE PLAYOFFS these past 2 years. U probably won't find 1, because REAL hof qbs like Marino/Brady/Manning don't perform like that in the playoffs, ever. It's not in their dna.
     
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Maybe better to look up the stats first?

    Here are Wilson's postseason stats by game:
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00/gamelog/post/

    And Brady's:
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/post/

    Lowest for Wilson was 44.3 against GB two years ago (VERY different from 0.0). Lowest for Brady was 49.1 against Baltimore in 2009. So they're not that dissimilar in terms of lowest rating in playoffs.

    Also, "REAL" QB's like Marino actually did worse. Remember that 62-7 drubbing Jacksonville gave us in the 1999 season AFC Div. playoff game? Marino's rating was 34.6.

    And another "REAL" QB, Peyton Manning's lowest was 31.2 in a 41-0 loss to the Jets in the 2002 season playoffs:
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/post/

    Regardless, over his career Wilson is above average not just in the regular season but also in the playoffs.
     
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