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im blaming RT17 for the loss

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dullfandan, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not. Let's not act like 3-10 is the case every year with Rivers. Miami could easily be that under Tannehill this year. Last night was on the 3rd game all season Miami has scored over 20 points.

    And let's not act like Miami has had the worst team in the league under Tannehill.

    Chad Henne's last two years as full-time starter were 6-8 and 7-6. The year before Tannehill got here Moore led Miami to a 6-6 record.
     
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  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not acting like 3-10 is the case every year for Rivers. Clearly, that team is bad, given their record in contrast to how well he is playing.

    Elite QBs don't just win no matter what's around them.
     
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  3. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    i would love to give an elite qb this team i could imagine the conversation.

    ok aaron rodgers, we are going to give you an oline that cant block 3 defenders so you will likely be facing 8 players in coverage. when they do bring 6 there won't be a rb back there to pick up a free blitzer or with this oline 2 or 3. you will be hit constantly, you will be forced to throw a 50 yard pass downfield while a 260 pound linebacker hits you in the chest.

    we are going to give you an offense where you have a running back that averages 5 yards a carry and is one of the best in the league, he will carry the ball 7 times a game.

    you will deal with a system where you cant audible, you will throw screens to gimped receivers who shouldnt be on the field, you will be throwing passes to tight ends that cant catch, you will throw screens when your oline and tight end cant block.

    im sure we will go 13-3.
     
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  4. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that. I do understand it is a team game. I do understand Miami's OL is not a strength. I do understand the defense has been depleted given the majority of resources have gone to the offense the past 5 years.

    I do believe that over the course of their career elite QBs win a significant more than they lose, able to lead their teams to the playoffs frequently, able to make those around them better and their level of play steps up when the game is on the line.

    I base my analysis on watching Tannehill play the past 61 games and college. I have not seen any of the traits of elite QBs other than the occasional good game (which all QBs have, even Sanchez and Ryan Leaf) and plays. The consistency and clutch play is has been pretty much absent from what I have seen.
     
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  5. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    big ben has had 3 8-8 seasons and 1 9-7 season.

    drew brees has had 3 7-9 seasons 1 8-8 season and are in the midst of a 5-8 season(this is just time in new orleans)

    so brees has had a losing or .500 record in half of his total seasons in new orleans.......

    rivers seasons since 2010:
    2010: 9-7
    2011: 8-8
    2012: 7-9
    2013: 9-7
    2014: 9-7
    2015: 3-10

    good teams win not just qb's.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, I think too often in these discussions, my position on Tannehill becomes synonymous with me thinking Tannehill is elite. I don't. My point, is that elite QBs amass wins with better teams around them. So what if Tannehill isn't elite? He still needs a decent team around him. With a decent team, I do think that Tannehill would look drastically better. An extreme hypothetical, but let's say that Rivers was drafted to his current team, and had management and coaches as bad as Miami, and he had four years straight to start his career, playing on a team that couldn't win. It wouldn't make him any less elite, but their record wouldn't be good over those for years.

    So, in essence, I'm not arguing that Tannehill is elite, but isn't showing it because of his team. I'm arguing that Tannehill can be better than average, maybe even crack top 10 with decect protection, but that he may not possess the physical tools to elevate a garbage team to the playoffs. And that's fine, I think. You don't need elite to win in the playoffs, but you definitely need a complete team.
     
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  7. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    C'mon, just getting to the point of absurdity. I mean crap, why not just include Rogers, Manning, Brady, Dalton, Wilson, etc...?

    Roethlesberger has one 7-8 record as a starter, one 8-8, 11 winning seasons, 2 Super Bowl victories, 111-55 record, 10-5 playoffs, 35 GWDs...play on the field speaks for itself.

    Brees has 1 Super Bowl, 122-91 overall, 92-63 in NO (of course they had to pay a big price for bounty that has affected the team), 6-5 playoff record, 7 winning seasons, 5 seasons 11+ wins, 37 GWDs...play on the field speaks for itself.

    I guess in your opinion that "all" QBs are equal? I mean, how do you ever decide who is more affected by the team around them? So what does it matter who plays QB?

    Believe it or not I do understand it is a team game. Great QBs are able to make winning a habit and get their teams to the playoffs. Maybe not every year, but often. They also elevate their play when the game is on the line and come through more often than not. They are able to win big games. When/if Tannehill starts making a habit of that I'll admit it. Hasn't happened yet.

    I just don't buy into the logic it appears a lot of fans do...OL sucks + WRs suck + RBs suck + defense sucks + Owner sucks + HC sucks + OC sucks + DC sucks; therefor Tannehill is an elite QB.

    I actually think a QB has to earn it on the field of play. I've been around football long enough to know what I'm looking at. So you think differently, cool.
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    phillip rivers is not elite, never has been, jmo.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Honestly, Adam, who is saying that Tannehill is elite, right now? I've seen people say that he can put up really good, even elite numbers, with a decent team.

    I've not seen anyone say that Tannehill is elite, but it's hidden because of other factors.
     
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  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Fair enough.
     
  11. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  12. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    Who are the elite quarterbacks in your opinion, if you don't mind?
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    brady..rogers..brees..berger..wilson..
     
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  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If ryan retrains himself on what he should be as a qb its all good with me for next year...

    he ran 4 unscripted runs last nite, most on the season, no coincidence he played his best game, once he figures out for himself what he is and what he should be then maybe he will re establish a ceiling..if you've been held down for 4 years then its time to realize who you are, not what some wanted you to be, so retrain the skill set to who you are.
     
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  15. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    It's fluid, I understand. For instance, last year, you might have said Manning or Luck. This year, I would add Palmer. I've always liked Rivers, personally.
     
  16. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    i would put rivers in the elite category.
     
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  17. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    I would add Palmer this year and Newton.
     
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  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Y'all are too loose with the word elite.

    For me, it's the best of the best. The top. The group of QBs where, if you were granted one of them, you aren't a little disappointed you didn't get another.

    For years it was just Brady and Manning. Then Rodgers joined. Then Manning fell out. That's it. Not Brees. Not Berger. Not Romo. Those are guys right beneath them.

    If you were an expansion team and 8 years ago I said you get Brady, you'd be like "YAY!" You wouldn't say, oh I wished I got Manning but Brady is cool. And vice versa. Same with Rodgers.

    If you got granted Rivers, would you say, "Yay! The same as Rodgers or Brady!" No you wouldn't.

    The elite is the upper tier and you need years and years of excellence. Brees never made my list of elites. Not even Big Ben. Those guys are great qb's, but not elite. To me, there is no category above elite. So if they're not as good as Brady/Rodgers (and Manning just last year or the year before), you're not elite.
     
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  19. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    getting frustrated with Landry, always these ill advised moves to get more yards and getting stuffed, when he could just get his head down and dive forward for another 2-3 yards, he is putting us in 3rd and 6 way to often instead of taking whats there and make it a 3rd and short
     
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  20. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    my takeaway from the tannehill stuff is, unless he has a 100% completion and 3-6 TD's a game and never being sacked and 100 yards rushing people are going to hate him.
     
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  21. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    I dunno. I think people just hate losing and will direct their blame at the person they feel is most responsible.
     
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  22. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    He picks up those extra yards too sometimes. He has to stop losing his temper.

    He also shouldn't be tied for fourth in the league in receptions and seventh in targets. We have other (better) weapons.
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Exactly.

    Basically, blaming Tannehill as much as they do reveals one of two things:

    - They don't really understand the game of football

    OR

    - They are intellectually lazy and just blame the biggest name they can find
     
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  24. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Some of this is on the QB who won't scan the field to see the other options. I did see in the last game Tannehill actually move his head around a bit to look at other things. that is encouraging.
     
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  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, he doesn't exactly have the time to scan the field. When he does have time, he does scan the field.
     
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  26. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you're going to see that more and more as we get a bit further away from Lazor's offense and playcalling. A lot of those pass plays we ran with Lazor were predetermined before the snap. Personally, I think over the last few games here were going to see more downfield attempts, and an offense that resembles what we saw Monday night, more than what we've seen all season when Lazor was around. Of course, that also assumes the OL holds up. They had it fairly easy Monday night against the Giants.
     
  27. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    We throw A LOT of screens and hitches to him that contribute to those numbers, and while I think those are good plays to have in your arsenal, we have to stretch the field more.
     
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  28. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    He had plenty of time in this game, the most I can remember actually.
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes. It's amazing. He had time, and he actually maneuvered in the pocket, and scanned the field.

    Crazy, I know.
     
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  30. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Wilson ?? Seriously ??:shifty:
     
  31. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I am not going to read thru this, the thread name is enough.

    If anyone should be shouldering the blame it is Brent Grimes and more importantly the defensive scheme for not providing support over the top.

    Beckham ate Grimes lunch and that was the game.
     
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  32. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mitch Berger doesn't play QB, he was a punter, and he actually doesn't play at all anymore. Come on deej... get with it bro.

    :tongue2:
     
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  33. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So says the guy with the worst track record with his convictions over the past few years. I thought Tannehill played well this past week. But you've been so wrong with your convictions, if I was Tannehill I'd be worried about my career!
     
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  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Hardly. I'm just one of the few with the stones to admit when I'm wrong.
     
  35. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The reality is that forum posters are notoriously bad at predicting what will happen. The ones that are right are usually just lucky.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    it was still a doucher comment
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Its the truth though. If that makes it douchey, so be it.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    y'all are funny...so he gets some better protection and he manuvered the pocket, and your like ''see see, thats what it was''

    any qb can move around a bit when they have protection, the issue is what does he do when protection breaks down, cause thats ultimately whats gonna happen in playoff caliber games , on the road, those are the times he will be judged by his manuverability..do you not get that? this is how every qb will be judged because its what they ultimately will face, can you make play under pressure, not can you run around when you have protection.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Better protection doesn't equal good or even average protection.

    Look its real simple, our line sucks at pass protection. It probably sucks worse than any line in the league. The stats don't tell the whole story (as you yourself know and have argued in the past).

    The stats equate all pressure the same. It is not.

    There is a difference between one rusher breaking through and 3 or 4 breaking through. The stats make no differentiation between these things. You and the others NEVER acknowledge this.

    Most QBs with bad olines get staggered pressure where there is actually space to run to away from the rusher. Guys like Wilson, who is better than probably any other QB in the history of the league at avoiding the rush, can't teleport. He needs open space to run into. This is simple common sense.

    The pressure Tannehill gets is rarely like that. When it is, like against the Giants horrible pass rush while we were actually running the ball, then Tannehill moves around in the pocket pretty well. But when we aren't running, and the defense can tee off on our **** oline, then the entire pocket collapses and there is no place to run, like the second half of the Giants game.

    Tannehill will never be Wilson at scrambling. But so effing what. He's good enough at it to win, if the line was even average and if you don't abandon our running game for no goddamned reason.

    It is gettitng to the ****ing point that our ridiculous fans are run this guy out of town with pitchforks, because Tannehill doesn't run like Wilson, throw like Rodgers and win like Brady. Its ridiculous and it needs to stop.
     
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  40. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    And in this game HE made the time by moving around in and out of the pocket. That has been the point of many posters of something that he needs to do. Not saying his passes were accurate out of that, but his moving is a huge plus.
     

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