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Questions still remain at QB

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin-O, Nov 26, 2015.

  1. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly my point. Well, sort of. I dont care how it relates to Tannehill, but that's interesting to point out.

    I'm just saying... great.. he was our 2011 TEAM mvp.. as a team... we sucked. So.... who cares? We finished 6-10. Who really cares who our team MVP was?
     
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  2. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    "So... so many say the defense isn't the blame, and its the offense, but we need a defensive coach? Huh?"

    That's not baiting?


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  3. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not really. I'm just simply pointing out, that our defense, early on in games, hasn't been a major issue, even presently while running with backups, as many of us around here have pointed out. Defensive minded HC isn't what we need right now. Still don't get what you're upset about here.

    :confused2:
     
  4. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    That we're correct about the difference not being much and would be better off investing in other positions instead of relying on somebody who was drafted too high and given too long and large of a contract.


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  5. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not at all actually, becuase the one you're wanting to replace, has far more upside still than the one you want to replace him with. Especially if we correct the problems plaguing this offense.

    All it shows, is that you're willing to replace perceived mediocrity, with more mediocrity.

    Bottom line, nobody was a better option than Tannehill for us, heading into this year, hence the contract. It is what it is at this point. So... new staff incoming, he's under contract, so find a coach to fix it, that you also have faith in to develop someone new if need be. IT's that simple at this point. Matt moore, is nothing.
     
  6. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    How many coaches have we had around Tannehill that haven't been successful with him? How many resources have we invested in the offense including Tannehill? How many draft picks, how much money?

    Hue and Andy have a stacked offense to work with.


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  7. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can invest all the coaches, and talent you want, but if you miss on those investments in coaches, and picks when evaluating their talent... how much does said investment really matter?
     
  8. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Not really, except you're being very dismissive and condescending.

    Our defense is garbage. Can't stop the run, you're doomed. We can't run and don't run either.

    If you can't stop the run and you can't run, you're not gonna win many games. ESPECIALLY if you don't have an elite QB. Ask Rivers.


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  9. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that Tannehill has more upside. We've seen enough of him. It's not perceived mediocrity. He is the definition of mediocre.

    There was a better option. Holding onto Moore and rebuilding for a while. Instead we forced in a rookie that was drafted way too high based on potential and then overpaid on potential.


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  10. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not being condescending at all actually. Maybe you're just being too sensitive to someone disagreeing with you?

    Our defense, hasn't been that bad. Lets face it, we were in these last two games up until halftime, especially given the talent that's uninjured, and playing. When they're on the field though 3\4's of the game because we can't get anything going offensively, of course theyre going to collapse in the second half


    Touchdown Broncos!!! They take the lead! Lots of time for the pats still though :(
     
  11. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Great...

    Add Brock Osweiler to the list of Qbs better than Tannehill....:shifty:
     
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  12. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't care, it's why I ignored the rest of what you had to say. I'm just letting you know why I'm ignoring the rest of it. I'm not copying the baiting tactic or bleeping out curse words.

    Our defend is atrocious. We can't stop the run.

    We can't run either.

    You miss those two things, which are THE most important factors for teams without elite QBs and you've got a garbage team, which is what we have.

    That's why I want a defensive minded coach with a run first mentality. That and Tannehill hasn't proven he's worth more investment.




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  13. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can't be serious in saying Moore has more upside than Tannehill at this point in their careers.

    So, you would have been comfortable going into this season, with Matt Moore as the starter, or a rookie? One of which probably ended up being a second round pick, that, to this point on their respective teams in the NFL that drafted them, has done nothing?

    Sorry... That's just not a valid option IMO. QB's don't grow on trees. When you have one thats even remotely serviceable at that age, you have no choice but to pay him. We have a way out of the deal if it doesn't work. That's the key here. It may not work, but at that point in time, as a team, we really had no choice. The choice wasn't start Matt Moore, when it's clear the FO thought they had the chance to compete for the playoffs given the way we ended last season... With Tannehill at QB..
     
  14. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Our defense is certainly better than our offense. And really its not even close. Even after that "offensive explosion" vs the Jets in mop up time today.
     
  15. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    On his 2nd HC, 2nd OC and fans are thinking making more changes is the solution to Tannehill playing better, crazy. Miami has spent 14 of the 21 draft picks in rounds 1 thru 4 in the last 5 years on offense including 4 of the past 5 first round picks on offense. They have signed Albert, Cameron and Jennings who are proven vets. Yet, Miami has scored 20 points or less in 9 of 11 games this year. Tannehill only has 6 GWD in his entire career. Tannehill is now in is 4th year and Miami had late season collapses in each season. Miami has yet to have a winning season behind him. Tannehill has a 27-32 record as a starter. Tannehill wasn't any better in college when all the pieces were in place. The list goes on.

    Tannehill has clearly regressed this season after reports were he took a big step in leadership and play in the off-season. Those reports were definitely wrong. It might be different if he showed improvement. The real question is why are so many people wanting him to remain our QB? I guess some fans have developed low expectations over the past 10 years and gotten used to below average QB play.
     
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  16. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Drop the baiting crap, seriously. You're being ridiculous.

    I'm quite aware of our issues with the run. Our OL sucks. So, yes, we can't run. We know that. We also can't pass block. Which contributes to the OL being mediocre.

    Our defense though... Lets be honest. Wake is out. We're playing with all backup LB's right now. What do you really expect? Lets not forget... Delmas. He's out. When he went out last year, our D significantly dropped off. He's gone this year too. I'm sure that factors in.

    We don't need a defensive coach. A good, solid DC. Absolutely. You can get that. I'm all for that. For HC though, we're tied to Tannehill for the short future. So, lets get someone to help that. Fix that. Work with that. Like it or not, it's our situation. So, get a good HC, offensive minded, get a good OC, good QB coach. Then probably use a resource on a QB. Whether that's draft, or FA. Then let them work with Ryan. It's either going to work, or it's not and we take advantage of that out in the contract. He's here. He was the only choice at the time. So, fix it, or move on. That's our option right now, it's that simple really.

    Defensive HC is just not what we need. This is an offensive league. If you can't score, you can't win. Sure, you've got to stop them, but lets face it, this league is geared to offense. That's priority. NE is a good example of that.
     
  17. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying that... What's up with you and so many others misrepresenting me? I'm saying Tannehill has no upside. He's every bit as mediocre as Moore is.


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  18. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Oh and I never said I'd be more confident with Moore as the starter either. I clearly said I'd have stuck with Moore after 2011 and rebuilt for a while, not immediately draft a rookie 8th overall and proceed to overpay him all based on potential.

    Damn it man, stop being so dishonest or learn to read what I'm writing.


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  19. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's more the fact that some of us realize we're stuck with him at this point.

    Ive said it before. The performance arrow, is now trending down. The potential arrow is still pointing up IMO. Also, lets be honest about our HC, and OC's. Philbin, was clearly trash. Sherman... not worthwhile. Lazor... just look at our offense, even outside of Ryan. The drops, the penalties, the poor plays and play calls. It's all terrible. All signs pointing to Lazor having a big hand in this. Lets face it, he's done at the end of the year regardless. Campbell isn't being kept any longer, it's not even a thought anymore. So.. the new HC is likely going to pick a new OC.

    Tannehill is under contract, a big one, like it or not. It is what it is now. So, yes, you work with it. You find competition, somehow. You hope it works one way or another. It's just really the only solution right now. It sucks, but it is what it is. It's how the Dolphins roll.
     
  20. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Um... you're the one that said you disagree that Tannehill has more upside. You said it. Not me, you. I'm not misrepresenting anything.

    Ok, so Moore isn't the answer. We agree on that. It was also obvious though in 2011 that he wasn't the answer. So why would we choose to build around him? It just doesn't make sense. You can't succeed without a QB in this league. Moore wasn't going to help. We both know, and have acknowledged that, so why stick with him? Find the QB, build around him. It's the most important position. We've missed on it for so long, we had no other option than to draft Tannehill. Much like we didn't really have an option to re-sign him and pay... it's just the way the league is...

    You'd rather have gone with Moore over Tannehill. You want to now.. how is that not you being more confident in him?
     
  21. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    This is not an offensive league. Football is not an offensive game, period.

    NE is a dynasty with the greatest QB and HC of all time.

    The Seahawks, Panthers, Cardinals and Broncos are what football is really about. Look throughout the years. Look recently. Defense and running wins championships. Offenses win Super Bowls when they're truly special.

    And Tannehill isn't worth building around with an offensive minded HC or a ton of draft picks or money or any of that. He needs an excellent defense and running game. Dalton is just as mediocre and Hue will not bring along the rest of their offensive players with him. Dalton ain't winning any big games either, at least not because of offense or him. He's not even Flacco and neither is Tannehill. At least Flacco showed he's always been good in the playoffs.


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  22. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    You claimed I believe Moore has more upside. I NEVER said that or implied that. I'm saying Tannehill has no upside. He is what he is. Moore is just as mediocre, just as incapable except for different reasons.

    Again, I'm not saying to build around him damn it!!! What in the world is wrong with you??? I clearly said to rebuild and then hand a QB friendly team to a young QB. Our team wasn't ready for a new QB and Tannehill wasn't ready either.


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  23. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not? Hmm.. Interesting, because I'm pretty sure all the rules now tend to favor the offensive side when it comes to WR's and QB's. I get that both sides are important. Offense has the upper hand.

    I cant disagree with respect to Seattle, Carolina, Arizona etc. I agree.

    Hue isn't going to bring players, we all know that. He's a guy though, that's been involved on every side of the game. Just look him up. Hue's only been in Cincy one year, so you can't judge Dalton's big game performances and playoff stuf from the past, and contribute Hue to that.

    I'm just saying... do some digging on the guy.

    It's not about building around Tannehill. It's building the offense. We arent going to score points without one. So fix the key weakness... the OL. Fix the next key weakness.. QB. Get competition, real competition. Get a QB coach, a real QB coach. Get a competent OC who's been there before. No more learning on the job guys on the staff, unless it's the lower level positions.

    I get what you're saying... and I'm really not trying to start **** with you, it's just discussion/debate bro.
     
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  24. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You said it, right here...

    You're disagreeing, that Tannehill has more upside than Moore. I'm not sure what you mean here...

    Tannehill has upside. Plenty of it. We need someone to squeeze it out of him. It hasn't happened at this level yet. His QB coach is Zac Taylor. What are his credentials? Other than boinking the former OC's daughter? That's right, he isnt qualified. Lazor was Chip Kelly's QB coach for what, a year? He was hired solely due to his affiliation with the hot name in Chip Kelly, and Nick Foles at the time. That's proven to be a failure just by looking at our offense and gameplans as a whole, outside of, and including the QB.

    We weren't ready for a QB at the time we drafted Tannehill, sure. However... was Tennessee this year with Marcus? Was Tampa with Jameis? Was Carolina with Cam at the time etc. etc. You're never ready. You just have to do it, its the key position. Fix it, everything falls into place.

    It's late man... we're not getting anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree, and we all move on as miserable Dolphins fans :lol:
     
  25. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Agree to disagree about offense vs defense. The rules clearly favor the passing game specifically but that doesn't mean defenses can't adjust. A good defense will usually trump a good offense. That's been the case historically and it will continue to be the case outside of obvious dynasties.

    Agree to disagree on the HC candidate. I'm a defensive, run first guy all the way for reasons already stated.

    I've had to correct you several times already. Can't tell if you're doing it on purpose or not.


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  26. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I am disagreeing that Tannehill has more upside. That doesn't mean I believe Moore has more upside. I've said numerous times I believe Tannehill has no upside. He is what he is. He's mediocre. Stats and game tape show it.

    He hasn't shown anything with Philbin, Sherman, Lazor or Taylor. None were special. All are gone. He didn't even show much with Sherman in college. He was always drafted as a prospect with potential. 4 years in and I don't see it. Plenty of mediocre QBs can match what he's done. 4K yards with 60+ completion percentage on one of the lowest YPA is not impressive. TD to INT ratio is not impressive. Nothing is more than mediocre.

    Marcus and Jameis have shown more than Tannehill during their rookie years, you're right. What's the point? They were always natural QBs and stars in college. Tannehill was never any of that. Cam was ALWAYS a special talent with a special frame. No question there, undoubtedly worth his draft status.

    As for never being ready, that's just not true. Wilson was drafted with a QB friendly team. The Dolphins made the playoffs before he started, didn't they? Before Brady was Bledsoe. Brady wasn't more than a game manager when he first started and won with a great team with a great HC. I'm sure we can find more examples if we really studied it.


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  27. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    But yes, let's agree to disagree and move on. It is late.


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  28. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Correct me on what exactly... Cuz I'm pretty sure I just corrected you on what your trying to say I need to be corrected about by showing you what you said.. But whatever. I'm done with that. It's not important.

    Your right. We've got a different philosophy. And that's cool. I respect that philosophy. If we were in a different situation with the QB now, id agree with you. But right now, he's a big cap hit were tied to. So, priority one for me is try to fix it, get competition, keep building. If it doesn't work, then you send tannehill on his way. But that contract kind if dictates that's what we have to do.

    It's all good man. We disagree. There's nothing wrong with that.

    At least we can enjoy the fact that Denver beat the patsies!

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  29. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Cool, let's do that. Agree to disagree, keep rooting for the team anyway and then take to the board and complain again until we've got a good team.

    Now we've gotta worry about the Panthers staying undefeated. Their schedule is very cushy. We'll keep an eye on that and celebrate if and when they lose.


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  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    upside?...where?..more from the pocket?...hes completely one dimensional so there better be some good pocket stuff that awaits us.
     
  31. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I can agree with basically all of this. Except the upside part. We've seen him play significantly better than he is now. Last year, he was clearly improving. There's still talent there, it needs some work.

    I guess all I'm saying, is Moore isn't going to help. Ryan is under contract, whether that's the right decision or not doesn't matter. But he's here now, were going to have a new coach. New OC. New QB on the roster somewhere after this season probably as well. A new coach will add his guy. My preference is to get someone, somewhere on that staff that has worked with offenses and qbs before. We need to develop one moving forward, whether it's Ryan or not.

    If we go with a more defensive minded coach, then we damn well be going with an OC who has a proven history developing young qb's because we're likely going to need it for whoever is at that position next year. Unless the Broncos let Manning walk and he ends up here. Lol. But even then, we still need to develop someone at the position.

    Anyways, its all good. [emoji106]

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  32. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to say Tannehill's mediocre play has single handedly gotten a few coaches fired, but it has certainly helped.

    Now Taylor is the OC. He'll be gone in no time as well.


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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If he ends up gone, it's because he's not good at his job, just like Sherman, Philbin, and Lazor.
     
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Ryan suffered because Lazor was a terrible OC who continued to call plays that entrusted his OL to do their job.

    Pass blocking in general is mediocre in the NFL these days, but you can create ways to nuetralize it a little bit. Bill never did that.


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  35. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering when the majority of this board will start to sense a pattern here. Now Tannenbaum is gonna bring in his own front office and coaching staff for slaughter. I hope I'm wrong.


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  36. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Removing your feelings about the QB, and his play... Can you honestly say Joe Philbin, Mike Sherman, and Kevin Coyle were good coaches, doing good things for this team? Especially with all the reports out there how much the players disliked them, their systems, their philosophy, their stubbornness to change and adapt?

    There is more than enough information, outside of the QB, to make strong cases for firing all of them, and pointing out that they just simply aren't good enough coaches. That includes Bill Lazor. Dan Campbells comments today about the firing are pretty telling. It's pretty obvious Bill Lazor is gone, for not adapting, and changing, even after Campbell said right from day one, he wants to be more balanced. Yet, apparently, Lazor didn't get the message. These guys were fired for reasons far beyond the play of the QB. They've done it for themselves, and set themselves up for failure by refusing to change their schemes and ideas to better fit their personnel.

    The best thing that can happen IMO, is Tannenbaum (or someone) completely cleaning house, and starting over, or worst case scenario, keeping Campbell (if that's what they want to do) and surrounding him with solid, experienced coaches at OC, and DC. We have too many guys right now from old staffs/regimes, and guys that aren't wanted, but we are stuck with because Philbin assembled a coaching staff that is completely mediocre. It's going to happen, we knew that from the second Philbin was fired.
     
  37. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    When even Sherman couldn't get Tannehill to succeed, that's a red flag. Sherman wasn't nearly as bad as you guys like to pretend. Most guys aren't cut out to coach in the NFL but wow, even a guy that's coached you since college and didn't trust you much then, that's damning.

    Campbell wants a more physical, balanced team. So what? So does everybody else. Find a way to get it done and zip it.

    I thought Campbell figured out a way to do that but those games are looking more and more like flukes fueled by emotion and intensity.


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  38. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    What proven and qualified HC is going to want to take this job without the power to flip the roster? Assuming that Campbell is also let go, which how could he be kept at this point, what HC is going to want to go with a QB that in 4 years that QBs level of play has significantly contributed to two HC (Philbin, Cambell) and three OC (Sherman, Lazor, Tayolor) being canned?

    Letting Lazor go at this point in the season has further solidified that the Dolphins franchise has probably replaced the Raiders as the biggest joke in the NFL.
     
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  39. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    We're right there with the Browns. They have a slight edge over us though.


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  40. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Good point...the only thing keeping the Browns in the basement is their 1st round QB is an alcoholic.
     

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