Enough with effing insulting me. Secondly, you did invent the final say crap because IT NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!! You also saw edited parts of a TV show and you are picking and choosing which to believe and you're doing that when we KNOW FOR A FACT Philbin didn't have final say. It is fact. Its been proven. Its been confirmed. They had a power struggle. Stop ignoring that.`
While we're at it average yards per offensive play for 2013 Gibson- 1.41 yards per snap on 252 snaps Hartline- 1.12 yards per on 907 offensive snaps Wallace- 0.98 yards per snap on 951 snaps Matthews- 0.86 yards per on 519 snaps And in 2012 Hartline- 1.21 Bess- 1.05 Matthews- 0.65 (232 offensive snaps) M. Moore- 0.59 (196 offensive snaps) I don't get both why fans think we've been leaving all of this untapped potential on the bench, the numbers clearly don't back that up, nor do I get the claim he hasn't been given a fair opportunity to this point. He had 519 offensive snaps in 2013 which is close to what Stills had in 2014. On a per snap basis since 2012 Matthews has been our worst performing WR, so it should make sense as to why he got the fewest snaps.
For good or bad, I truly beleive Philbin was the reason Davis was traded and Matthews did not see the field. He has loosened up, but at that point, there could not be a gum wrapper on the locker room floor and as recent as last year, he was still doing bed checks. They did not fit his mold. Almost every player that has questioned him since he has been here is not on the team including former captains. I really think Philbin has changed some and halfway removed the stick from his ***. That does not mean that Matthews should not have been on the field a bunch last year. I hope the he and Stills have a spectacular season. I hope everyone performs above expectations. I spend $ and fly to games. I would like to see them win a bunch of them. I hope every player is great, but I do think Matthews got the shaft. He is good enough to get a good check elswhere and NFL careers are short.
It's insulting to me to say that I'm inventing stuff. I returned the favor. I'm not making anything up. I'm not delusional as you're insinuating or lieing, hidding anything, or anything else. I already addressed the final say thing like 4 times. Come to grips with it, man. I only mentioned TV editing in response to having the trade initiated on TV. Nothing else. We have no idea of all the details on how that trade was started. Texts, emails etc....As I said before, maybe it WAS the Colts. If it was, it was because they saw a good young player being given up on by a coaching staff opening the doors for negotiations.
Stills-1.51 yards on each of his 617 offensive snaps in 2014. Which is better by far than any Dolphin receiver. Landry-1.11 yards per play Wallace- 1.05 Matthews- 0.64 Gibson- 0.59 Hartline- 0.58 Sims- 0.56
Look, saying you invented something that never happened is not an insult. It is fact. If I said Joe Philbin coached the Dolphins to the Super Bowl last year, I would be inventing that because it didn't happen. What you're doing is no different. Again, watch interviews/PCs with Philbin, he says "yeah" after questions all the time. Its not an agreement, its him acknowledging the question. And for the billionth time...there was a power struggle. Ireland rarely did what Philbin wanted, that's a major reason for him not being here. You keep ignoring that. <------Not an insult.
A seventh-round draft pick wasn't efficient in his first two seasons in the NFL? Shocker. To me the thing with Matthews is just the eye test. Whenever I see him get a stretch of snaps, to me he just looks like a legit NFL player who belongs in the League. He has the talent and the inside-outside versatility to be a player, and it's not like we've had this great WR core to shut him out of opportunities.
The point of those numbers is to illustrate that he shouldn't have been put in before any of those other guys. Its one thing to "pass an eye test" but its another to sit a guy producing better in favor of the 7th rd draft pick with dedication and maturity issues. Frankly, its looking like everything worked according to plan as he seems to be maturing and playing better too. That's called developing talent and Philbin is being **** on for doing it.
I agree, I just don't understand why you're blaming Philbin. Landry proved he could play and got plenty of playing time pretty much right out of the gate. Matthews has gotten a fair number of snaps and has averaged 0.6 yards per offensive snap, which is pretty crappy. Thats Marlon Moore level crap. And 2014 Brian Hartline level crap.
Do not agree that him saying "yeah" never means anything. I've see him acknowledge questions the same way, but this is different. You can choose to believe that he said "yeah" about the trade when he really meant "no". I don't care, but I don't. Did Philbin in your opinion express any disagreeance with Ireland when he mentioned trading him? No. No Philbin actually added a few of his own negative thoughts on the matter. I'm not ignoring that on other matters they didn't see eye to eye. It just has nothing to do with this Davis trade, because they DID agree. That's my whole point! You can agree to disagree that's fine. Lastly I wasn't hurt by your harsh tones but I will return the favor. And I never cry to the mods about them so there's no reason to point out you weren't insulting me. You cried foul, not me.
Richard Marshall. Another of Ireland's failed ventures into free agency. He was the Dannell Ellerbe version of DBs.
Can you guys do me a favor? Before we know the results of how he's going to perform can everybody go on record right now and state who is going to get the credit/blame for bringing Suh into the fold.
For all his other failures, I think Ross deserves more credit than anyone else for bringing in Suh. Yes, he had Tannenbaum do research and provide input, and he probably asked a bunch of other people for their inputs, but pursuing and landing one of the biggest FA signings ever is something that goes all the way to the top. Oh, and Suh is going to perform well.. I have no doubt about that. Just need the upcoming season to prove it.
I have no idea. But I DO give Philbin credit for being open (from what we know) to coaching such a strongly criticized player. But if he benches him for missing a practice......
VD was pretty mediocre for us. He didn't turn into a Pro Bowl player until he went to Indy. Getting traded was the fire he needed to be lit. It's really nothing more than that.
I don't agree. Vontae was definitely an above average player for us even at that point. And it's only natural that he turned into a pro bowler after he left as he was entering the prime of his career. The period when NFL players peak(3rd, 4th, 5th years). We cut ties with this guy way too early especially since he had 2 years left on his rookie contract. And though Philbin probably didn't have final say, he's definitely complicit in this mistake. Even if Vontae continued on that same trajectory, he was still better than any guy we've had opposite Grimes. [video=youtube;kE8bujXQsac]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE8bujXQsac[/video]
^^^^ bro I clicked on video and nfl.copyright came up. The nfl.is so evil sometimes. They wont even alloe youtubers to post old classic football games
Just splitting hairs, really. Vontae had a real good rookie season for us. Was underwhelming in 2010 and played in between in 2011. He was a very inconsistent player for us, then he got traded and found himself some consistency. I was very much against the trade though. I liked Vontae but it is what it is at this point.
I don't believe he had final say. I do believe his opinion of Vontae led Ireland to entertain a trade. It was a group effort. Philbo complained mightily about Vontae's maturity. Ireland took that into consideration and when offered a trade, he took it. They were working together. All you need to do, is go look at Clyde Gates. Ireland didn't want to let him go. Gates had shown absolutely nothing. You think Ireland just one day decides to trade his first rounder? No. He knew Philbin didn't want him around. Same with Brandon Marshall, the guy he traded two 2nds for. I believe those were all group efforts. Ireland taking into account his coaches wishes. But Ireland is gone.
This is precisely why I miss Don Shula so much. The number of times Don took scrubs or "talented but troubled" from other teams and turned them into solid starters or stars:- many. The number of times Don cut a scrub or "talented but troubled" who someone else then turned into a solid performer or a star:- close to zero. Sad to say but the HC in the NFL who does this the best now is in our division.
If the coach wanted to, the fire could have been lit while staying here, is what people are saying. At least give it a shot. If this staff knew he had the potential to be a top 3 corner would they have traded him? No. That means they failed in their evaluation, because he's a top 3 corner. Let's not pretend trading him was the only thing that was going to light his fire. Go see Vernon Davis. When Mike Singletary kicked him out of the game that turned the light on for him. He begged Singletary to trade him, and Singletary said, okay he will. Both those players grew up and have been or still are fantastic. After 3 great years of play for Indy, we have Jamar Taylor. Nobody can argue it was hindsight because this forum lit up that day he was traded with a lot of furious posters.
And exactly what should the coaching staff have done to light that fire? They had already demoted him down the depth chart not once but twice that off season. Some one calls you up and offers a 2nd round pick for a player who is in the last year of their contract, under performing their draft status and admittedly lazy and yes you considered that trade. I like Vontae and wish his time in Miami worked out differently but its not too hard to understand why they traded him and in the end it worked out for him.
Which is fair. My contentions have been: 1. We initiated the trade, when we didn't. (Ireland even says a couple of times on the phone to Indy, "you called me".) 2. Philbin had final say, which he didn't. Right, and if they weren't offered a trade out of the blue, they likely would have kept him. That's why its important to understand they didn't instigate the trade. But when a deal is offered it changes their outlook. Now, its not a matter of will this kid get his **** together, it is what is more likely....will this kid get his **** together or will we hit on a 2nd rd pick being offered. Was it the right call in the end? No, considering Grimes' age & that VD is likely to play longer, and Ireland's track record with 2nd round picks. But the narrative should be that it wasn't the right call, not that Philbin can't handle lazy players so he forced Ireland to trade him....which is exactly what has been happening ever since Ireland left.
I'm pretty sure Philbin gives his input on every single signing/cut, including Suh, it's ridiculous to give some of those moves more weighting than others simply based on your personal feelings about the move. "If I like the move Philbin had nothing to do with it, and if I don't like the move it was all Philbin." At the time a lot of people loved the Davis trade and Ireland was getting all the credit for bamboozling the Colts... Also, its came out that Philbin wanted Incognito cut, only after an alleged sexual assault during an official team event mind you, but Ireland refused that request. So if Philbin doesn't have the power to cut a mediocre guard after allegedly committing sexual assault why do we believe he has the power to orchestrate the departure of two of the most valuable players on the team in Vontae Davis and Brandon Marshall?
Yeah but that was more or less the same year. It was after the 2012 season, but still in between 2012 season and the 2013 season and Philbin wanted Martine replaced for the 2013 season. I could be wrong though and am too lazy to actually check the dates....lol
This initial complaint of mine was the way Philbin handles troubled or immature players. He more or less wastes them. He's benched Matthews for the better part of his rookie contract and he demoted Vontae to the point that he was viewed as trade bait and ended up a Colt....and yes Philbin was on board. Who initiated it, who had final say.....whatever! If it fits one of your (FinD) other myriads of arguments we can say that Ireland made the Davis trade exclusively and had final say. It doesn't even matter as my thoughts to this pertain. Philbin demoting him and agreeing to the trade on screen is enough for me. In all reality it was the benching of him that led to him being a Colt anyhow. I don't find it enjoyable to have my relevant thoughts scrutinized so heavily over an ancient argument of irrelevance either. As said, Ireland is gone. This whole conversation could have avoided that name altogether. It took this way off track. It's annoying.
EVERY coach, from pop warner to the pros in every sport, will demote a player for not doing his job correctly. You are blaming Philbin for a fundamental practice used across all levels of play and all levels of sports. And furthermore, he didn't bench Matthews. He put Matthews as the #4 WR, which is where his play and behavior dictated he go. His numbers show that. You wanted a player promoted over better producing veterans who cost more when that player didn't earn it on the field or in practice. That is absurd and only happens in the most clown of operations. Ireland had final say and we didn't initiate the trade. That is all I want you to understand, because those are the facts. If you want to believe something different go right ahead, but stop passing it off as fact and stop arguing it against the facts. Lastly, I don't much care what you want or don't want scrutinized. You put your thoughts on a board built for discussion, if you don't like it, don't post them. You don't get to post your thoughts and then ***** when people post their thoughts. Also, I left you alone, let you have the last word and everything, but you came back and re started this argument with me, so stop acting like you don't like arguing because you re-isntigated this one.
