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Clay's Offer and How to Proceed

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by zwave21, Mar 18, 2015.

  1. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    We're better than we were in January.
     
  2. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask for a #2 CB, MLB, FS? Some depth maybe?
     
  3. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Assuming the team signs Crabtree for what he's rumored to command, and considering how much more Clay would've made than Cameron, the offense's salary-to-production ratio at the skilled positions improved tremendously.
     
  4. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Half the team was hurt in January lol.
     
    SICK likes this.
  5. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The cost cutting aspect of the off season has been masterful, but the overall talent/production base has fallen off imo.
     
  6. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    All good points.
     
  7. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    I disagree.

    We lost Hartline, Gibson, Clay.....when considering injuries and playingtime were minimum in production from 2014.

    We added Kenny Stills, Jordan Cameron, and most likely Michael Crabtree.

    We also lost Starks and Odrick. But we will see more production out of Mitchell and Suh....so that's a win.

    We free'd up a ton of cap space in addition to adding Suh...with the draft, more free agency, and UDFA period still looming. We still are an attractive franchise based on geography, taxes, roster, etc.

    We are going to be okay.
     
    Tin Indian likes this.
  8. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    This sounds fair.
     
  9. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    We lost Wallace, Hartline, Clay, Gibson, Colledge, Smith, Satele. Added Cameron, Stills so far.

    On D Starks, Odrick, Ellerbe, Wheeler, Trusnik, Finnegan, Delmas, Wilson are gone. Suh, McCain, have come in.

    The counter is that those guys weren't any good, OK, but that's not a valid point unless we're getting better players to replace them. Due to cap issues the better players won't be coming via proven vets in FA. It'll be have to be draftees and unproven guys currently on the roster stepping up into bigger roles.

    I believe Taylor, Turner, M Thomas, D Thomas, Matthews, Jordan, McCain, Aikens, etc and their development are key to the team's success this year. Those guys plus 3-5 rookies.

    I agree w you long term, jettisoning those bad contracts will pay dividends, not sure if it'll be this year though.
     
  10. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Funny how you failed to mention Wallace as a loss, yet he was the best WR on the roster.

    At this time the group of WR's they have on their roster are not as good as what they had on their roster at the end of the season. Even if they add Crabtree, he really hasn't been very effective since his injury .

    Getting Cameron and losing Clay is basically an even trade at the position. Neither of them is noted as a strong blocker and both of them are effective catching the ball when they are actually in the game and not on the injury list.

    Suh is the one major upgrade on the team so far, but he is only one player and they are going to have to fill a lot more needs before they get beyond mediocre.

    I have been stating for quite some time that it is going to be at least 2016 before this team is a legitimate playoff contender. Even with the addition of Suh, I still feel they have too many holes to fill at this time to be playoff contender in 2015.


    Solid drafts in 2015 and 2016 will hopefully provide them with the talent to rise above mediocrity. At least I hope it will.
     
  11. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Wallace's performance was a function of volume (being thrown to a lot), whereas Stills's performance was a product of efficiency (making the most of the times he was thrown to).

    In 2014 Wallace had 67 catches for 862 yards, on 115 targets.

    If Stills would've been targeted the number of times Wallace was in 2014, Stills would've had 85 catches for 1,259 yards at his rate of production.

    That's 18 more catches, and nearly 400 more yards than Wallace, on the same number of targets.

    Now consider how much more Wallace counts against his team's salary cap than Stills does, and how that prevents his team from improving its talent as much elsewhere.

    All of that equals a tremendous improvement. Just because Mike Wallace was the best receiver on the Dolphins' roster in 2014, doesn't mean he can't be improved upon.
     
  12. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Even if you consider them to be roughly equal in their abilities -- which itself is arguable, since Cameron's significantly faster and more athletic than Clay -- an "even trade" at the position equals a win for the Dolphins, because Cameron counts far less against the Dolphins' cap than Clay would have.

    Managing personnel isn't just about managing talent. It's also about managing salaries.
     
  13. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    You also need to factor in that Wallace was the our biggest threat at receiver, teams gameplanned to limit him moreso than anyone else. Stills was a 3rd or 4th option in Nawlins and unless we make significant upgrades at WR he will be seeing more coverage than he ever saw as a Saint.
     
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  14. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    ^ this stuff makes me sick btw.

    you do realize the moves we made in terms of shedding contracts should get Tannebaum recognition alone. We would've cut Ellerbe/Wallace for nothing and we yielded solid returns in both and freed up huge amount of Cap.

    Jets = still NO QB, marginal OL. Literally just drafted CB's in round 1 & 2 last two years and just gave Millions of Dollars to three CB's....What? Oh, and players like Wilkerson and Richardson will have deals coming up.... bye bye to them.

    Bills = same thing no QB. Crappy interior OL. Just overspent more than anyone on Hughes/McCoy/Clay and with Dareus needing a contract he could be bye bye too.

    don't get me wrong Jets/Bills aggressive FA may pay off, but I will take my team anyday with a rising QB and not a Shane Falco/Willie Beamen type in those NY cities.
     
  15. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I guess you forgot to mention that Stills also played with one of the best QB's in the game, while Wallace played will Tannehill.

    I could argue that if Wallace played on the Saints with Brees, he probably would have had 500-600 more yards and probably 5-6 more touchdowns than he had with the Dolphins.

    Unlike Tannehill, Brees is one of the most accurate passers in the history of the NFL and I have no doubt he would have connected on many deep balls with Wallace.

    I have no problem with Stills as a third or fourth option with the Dolphins, but there is no way he will impact opposing defenses like Wallace did.
     
  16. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Perhaps you missed the fact the Bills finished ahead of the Dolphins last year and they had a very mediocre QB at that time.

    The Dolphins may be better than the Bills in 2 or 3 years if they are effective in drafting talented players in the next two drafts, but right now the Bills are the better team talent wise and I would take Ryan over Philbin any day of the week.
     
  17. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    Nah, seen every game for past 10 years sure didn't miss that. And you are right a Mediocre QB.

    The sickness I feel is saying we are treading water....Really, if anything we are getting unstuck out of the mud made for us by Emperor Ireland.

    Anyone > Philbin .... and his decisions are a big part of the problem.

    I think Ryan will work wonders with that defense but they have overpaid for every single player that is going to put them in a dire situation. They have no 1st round pick this year. Have an Pro-Bowl talent in Dareus who will most likely walk next year due to this massive spending.

    In terms of Talent...

    QB: Phins > Bills
    RB: Phins < Bills
    WR: Phins = Bills ... due to the fact were not finished yet.
    TE: Phins > Bills
    OL: Phins < Bills ... due to change with a healthy Albert. Their guard situation might be as bad as ours.
    DL: Phins = Bills .... our depth especially at DE brings us up
    LB: Phins = Bills .... losing Alonso will be tough
    Secondary: Phins < Bills
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Didn't have any of those last season.
     
  19. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Calm down Bro, I'm just sharing an opinion.

    I agree, and I've already said that the salary cap moves will pay dividends. And yes, Tannehill gives us an ultimate leg up on NY and Buffalo.

    However, for 2015, can you honestly say that we have a better team than them for 2015? Imo it depends on the performance of players who have yet to prove they can play at a high level or even stay healthy in some cases. I'm NOT a glass half empty guy, I've been called a homer more times than I can count. But I'm looking at our division and having a hard time believing we're any better than 3rd AT THIS POINT.
     
  20. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I agree with pretty much all of this.

    I like our OL better than theirs and I like their WRs more but overall I think you're on the money. IF we get the OL taken care of and add a good back to pair with Miller I'll like our offense over theirs in a major way.

    Defensively though, they are gonna have the edge. Can't see us closing that gap until perhaps 2016.
     
  21. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    And how would you feel about having obtained a wide receiver who, had he been targeted the number of times Wallace was, would've caught 85 passes for 1,259 yards from one of the best QBs in the game?
     
  22. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Stills was the second option in terms of targets per snap, and so was Wallace in Miami.
     
  23. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Finnegan and Delmas werw solid before the injuries. My main concern is depth. We have lost a lot of role players, no one guy who was overly important outside of Wallace, who I know you don't like, but the cumulative effect of losing so many guys is gonna hurt the team's depth.
     
  24. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I didn't state the Bills are a lot better than the Dolphins, but I do believe at this time the Bills are the better team.

    I have zero faith in Philbin and as you stated, we are still in recovery mode from all the years with Ireland in control of player personnel decisions.

    Hopefully Tannebaum and Hickey can provide the team will talent through the draft and the Dolphins will be ready to make a legitimate playoff run once the new head coach takes over in 2016.
     
  25. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Slow it down brother, that's like saying Miller would be a 2000 yard back if he got as many carries as Demarco Murray, except he'd have been carried out on a stretcher by week 10 if he got asany carries as Murray.
     
  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    QB counts for a lot jw. In a neutral venue, I don't see how one clearly favors the Bills over the Dolphins. If you want to say the Dolphins shouldn't be favored, fine, but saying Bills>Dolphins when including Tannehill I don't buy.
     
  27. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    You're not grasping the concept of efficiency. The projected numbers are used only as a heuristic. Stills can do exactly what he did last year and that'll work just fine.
     
  28. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    My point is that Wallace typically drew coverage away from other players while Stills was the beneficiary of other players drawing coverage away from him.
     
  29. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    Calm as can be, just if you're a true fan you'd recognize we are doing a lot more than treading water???

    So if you agree Tannehill gives us an ultimate leg up then wouldn't you feel more confident about our team?

    To answer 2015, I truthfully can't but I feel a hell of a lot better about our team by these moves. Also, feel good about our chances having a 1st round pick and Buffalo not having one. Love your point on players needing to prove something...

    IMO who need to:
    - Jordan, McCain, Turner, 3rd DT (Johnson/Francis), Taylor, M. Thoms, Aikens

    What does scare me the most in terms of 2015, is that defense under Rex Ryan....and if we don't patch up our interior OL we have ZERO shot against them.

    Mr. T and Hickey have done a great job of finding replacements for our losses, as well. We upgraded at DT for sure by adding Suh. We upgraded at Slot CB with McCain. If Cameron is healthy he is the type of weapon we have been needing in the RZ and he is two years removed from Pro Bowl, injuries are concerning. Idk, if Stills will be better than Wallace but I do have a feeling he will provide a more well rounded game and better effort.

    Areas of concern that will hinge our 2015:
    OG - with Clay's money back on the books, why not take a look at Stefan Wisnieski
    ILB - I'm a draft 100% guy for this need
    FS - Think it's Delmas and committee to begin the year
    CB - depth
    RB - add a mid round power back

    At this point I would say Bills outlook on 2015 may look better, but we have a QB in year 2 of a system with an OC who is adding pieces HE wants, interchangeable parts.
     
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  30. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I thought Delmas played well before his injury and I wouldn't mind seeing him return if he is healthy and the Dolphins don't draft a safety early in this years draft.

    As far as Finnegan goes. I never liked the signing from day one and I thought he was average at best last season and below average once he returned from injury.

    The fact Davis and Taylor couldn't beat him out for a starting position when they were healthy makes me concerned that neither of them will ever be a quality starting CB for the Dolphins.
     
  31. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    No, he can't. Not if he remains our number 1 WR. You're talking efficiency as if it occurs in a vaccum, it doesn't.
     
  32. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    So, where are they better that you'd feel that much better about their 2015 chances than ours?

    We are in purge mode, but our purging has been efficient as we are getting value back.

    See, the fact you aren't considering 2015 is strange to me. How are we a worse team today than we were at the end of 2014? specifics please
     
  33. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Good points. I'm hoping Taylor steps up the way Jenkins did. Not every player can perform when they're not getting starter reps in practice. My concern w JT is that he struggles to stay healthy even as a backup. Davis? I'm not expecting much of anything from him. Not big, fast, physical, technically sound enough imo.
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Whom on the Dolphins would've produced less, and by how much, had Wallace been drawing less coverage away from him?
     
  35. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    Agree on Delmas, except there are no Safeties I'd touch before round 4 since we don't have 3rd round pick.

    Spot on with Finnegan. Didn't hate the signing as much as i did the fact they stuck with him after his play fell off.

    As much as I want to agree, I also feel our HC/DC are unable to identify inefficiency rather than make a necessary change. Taylor played well, it's the health that is concerning. I do agree but with addition of Suh, your secondary can be a little more flexible to say the least.
     
  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I don't think coaches (including ours) have a hard time identifying inefficiency. It's what they do about it that's different. My personal take with Philbin is that he has a mental map about how a player should develop, and he doesn't want to rush that development. So I think he was very well aware of the deficiencies of Wheeler/Ellerbe etc.. but he probably had this idea of the hoops guys like Jenkins need to go through before they are thrown to the wolves. Other coaches just see whether the "pup will bite".
     
  37. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    While I accept that the Bills still have a huge question mark at QB and that has to be a concern for all the Bills fans. I see Tannehill as a good game manager, but not anything more than an average QB at this time.

    He plays okay one week and disappears the next. In fact he has been completely outplayed by the mediocre QB's of the Bills 3 out of the last 4 times the two teams have met.

    Tannehill was was also outplayed by the awful Jets QB the last two times their teams played in Miami.

    I am not nearly as high on Tannehill as many of on this forum are. I hope he eventually proves to be a top tier QB, but it rather difficult for me to get too excited with a QB who has led his team to more losses than wins in his first three years as a starter in the NFL.

    I believe this coming season will be a make or break year for Tannehill. Either he leads them to a winning season or the next head coach will probably want to draft his own QB to lead this team in the future.
     
  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah we have different views of Tannehill, and I guess this next season will serve as a test of which view is more accurate. Either way, even with the reduced game manager view, I still don't see how in a neutral venue the Bills should be clearly favored over the Dolphins (re: your claim they're the better team).
     
  39. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    A Game Manager... average?

    you do know he has been sacked the most of any QB the past two years. Believe in those two games you are speaking of he may have been sacked in the double digits. Kind of hard to win a game when you're on your backside.

    Bro, you missed the make or break season last year. Ownership and our Mr. T are bought in on the kid.

    Again, I'd like specifics outside of QB where you think the bills are better?
     
  40. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about Wallace on the field drawing less coverage, or Wallace not on the field at all?
     

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