Bret Bielema Says Talks To Coach Phins Broke Down In 2012 Because Of Russell Wilson

Says the guy who who calls others stupid...

I'm active in multiple threads to be honest, I do not single out a player I like and make it my goal to defend him the minute anyone says a hair is out of place. The only "baiting" I'm doing is calling you out on the contradictions you keep making. It's a message board, if you post it...it's there for everyone to see. The same way you try and nitpick Wilson, and yet refuse to give an ounce of blame to RT is evident. Why wouldn't I bring that to your attention?

You made a comment a couple weeks ago that "stats say what the stats say" then today give a poem about stats not telling the story.

 

First of all, I called it a "stupid argument." Not the same as calling the poster stupid.

Second of all, I have never, ever said that Tannehill didn't have flaws. I just haven't pinned all blame for the passing woes on Tannehill. You simply refuse to put any blame on Wallace. As to "nit-picking" Wilson, I was simply using some anti-Tannehill on him to show how ridiculous they are.

This, what was my post about stats? I'd love to see the quote in the context of what was being talked about.

I've been pretty consistent in my belief that stats don't tell the whole story. Just like Seattle being 1-4 in games where the defense allows more than 20 points doesn't mean that Wilson is terrible.

 

this is just not true Res, a lot has gotten lost in translation..basically what has transpired over the course of his career has confirmed what some of us thought coming out of college, and when the comparison came up to tannehill who was taken in the same draft, obviously the debate ensues as to who is the better player, better value, and better ceiling..

variables seem to be the hot topic as to how both players have gotten to the point where they are..I think this thread and the info in it has quite frankly debunked most of those variables but you can choose to believe what you see, and if thats not a great qb in Wilson, your gonna get words from folks who do..

 

people evaluate players differently, we all see things differently, to be honest, I think projecting russell wilson was one of the easiest projections in that draft, but apparently 32 gm's disagreed, which is embarrassing if one of those teams needed a qb, no other way to put it.

I think one of the big hangups is how to put a dual threat qb into context relative to what is traditional production.

 

my point exactly, trying to tell what he is at 30 to 40 reps completely dismisses what he does dual threat wise, to not have to throw that much..

who cares what he is at that number, your taking him away from half of his skill set, why?, to prove what? what he would be if he had to sit in the pocket?

 

Wasn't really aimed at you, DJ. But, you have to admit, there's been a plethora of posters on here complaining about Tannehill's win/loss record, and pointing to Wilson's win/loss record/playoff appearances as validation of how great he is. It's just not that simple, as I tried to display here.

Sorry if I was being overly infuriating.

 

Define "Plethra"

 

hall of fame player who never won the big game until he had davis..context..its almost like folks want wilson to play with no lynch and the worst receiver unit in the league, then they could really jump on his ***..lol...see I told ya Wilson wasn't that good, his numbers regressed''...lol..

 

Plethora: overabundance, many, more than necessary

 

its all good man...I really think its the dual threat thing..I obviously have a much higher opinion of that skill set then most and probably feel a bit of justification on that subject thru the body and skill set of russell wilson, thats it actually from my perspective, he has justified the formation, the dual threat, and my belief in both from years ago, so I guess when someone doesn't see it, I get protective of that projection..it probably comes from debating it years ago when a lot of people are telling me a dual threat can't win big, the read option was a fad, etc..

 

I just find it interesting, that for everything that Wilson does better, and the debatable passing stats, that when it's all said and done, when his defense plays more like the Dolphins defense, the team succeeds about same as the Dolphins. Truly shows the team nature of it all.

 

The entire discussion is based on the unknowable, and it's hilarious to see guys puffing their chests out and demeaning anyone who doesn't agree with them. Not saying you do that but there's a lot of it going on in this thread.

I prefer Tannehill's skill set to Wilson's in a side by side comparison, that's my opinion and yes, it's absolutely subjective.

The pass attempts thing is about explaining in general why I don't consider Wilson elite or significantly better than Tannehill, based on the numbers. You keep pointing out his #s when he's asked to throw 30+ times. He only does it 4 or so times per year and even then it's primarily vs single high or other pass friendly coverages designed to stop the run. That's a big reason why Seattle is able to get by w/ a sub par WR group. We have better WRs but they rarely see those types of coverages with any sort of regularity. Tannehill had a physical run game at his back for exactly one game this year, vs NE, he didn't even have a good game but we put up 30 and if not for a few TOs it could easily have been 40.

 

I am really beginning to think we need a strong run game. Lamar is nice but I still want another w/ more power, balance and attitude. It would make a huge difference for Tanny's game and the entire team as I'm thinking it means fewer series/snaps for our D.

Who's been evaluating the Bengals RB's the last two years? Ask him who we should take.

 

Wilson is a good QB, he'd be good no matter how many throws he's asked to make. The point is I think his efficiency would drop as teams focused more on him as opposed to stopping the run. Vice versa with Tannehill, if he could pick his spots more I think his efficiency would go up. Given the nature of our team we have no choice but to rely on RT, even though he's not ready to carry an offense consistently. Long term I think he'll benefit but I view these last three years more as growing pains that Wilson was able to avoid because he went to a team that didn't need him to do more than he was comfortable doing.

 

Well in your case one person who says that is too many. But what is there about three posters max who've said something like that?? I know I havent, I know DJ hasn't...kinda dramatic

 

and I think a team could focus more attention on wilson and the results would be the same, here's why I say that, space..you come after Wilson, he will create space thru his mobility, I'm sure he even has another level in that dept he could get to if need be, i mean you see him making folks look silly, now, if you ignore the run because you don't have a lynch in the backfield, and you drop back in coverage, he will cut you ON HIS OWN, with his legs... smart player, don't forget that when making your assessment.

I may of mistaken but didn't you say he has issues reading the field?

 

I don't know how many have said it...But it's been said numerous times. And yes, saying it one time, by one person, would be too many. Interesting, though, I didn't Dre anyone who was arguing with me in here arguing with those posters.

It's all good. I don't think Wilson sucks.

 

The Dolphins' defense surrendered an average of 23.3 points a game in 2014. During Russell Wilson's tenure, the Seahawks have won 47% of the games in which they've surrendered 20 or more points. During Ryan Tannehill's tenure with the Dolphins, the Dolphins have won 26% of their games under those conditions. That equates to a 4-12 regular season for the Dolphins, and a 7-9/8-8 season for the Seahawks.

 

Those stats don't tell the whole story. This season, for instance, when the Dolphins gave up more than 20 points, 5 out 7 times it was 30 points or more. So, you really should look at what the Seahawks record is when opponents score 30+. Hint: It almost never happens.

 

On the other hand the Dolphins had $22.5 million worth of wide receiver help for Tannehill, not counting the 2nd round pick they used on another one, a tight end about to get $6 million a year or so, the highest paid left tackle in the league and first round pick right tackle and right guard.

Russell Wilson had...Doug Baldwin. And Jermaine Kearse. And Ricardo Lockette. And Luke Willson. Yippee.

 

So...we're going to play the "most expensive = best" game now? Wallace is so overpaid it's not funny. I agree, Tannehill needs to be able to hit him deep. Landry was really the bright spot out of our receivers. Albert was injured, and that wrecked a lot on the offensive side.

All of that has what to do with what I was saying?

 

[video=youtube;-mTUmczVdik]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik[/video]


Let's lighten up everyone! We're all fans of the same team!

 

Shirley, you can't be serious?

 

Spot on. He forces rushers to be more disciplined yet he still gets away more than any QB Ive ever seen. It's uncanny and hella fun to watch. He also forces defenses into more zone looks, or man with a spy. Totally agree with you there.

Yes, I do think he has trouble reading the field, mainly due to his height. You'll see him looking at open guys and deciding not to risk it bc he can't see the whole picture. Sometimes he'll decide to ditch the play call altogether and look to break the pocket, not because of pressure, bc he's more comfortable when he has a clearer view of the field.

He has a strong arm but his trajectory is somewhat limited, which affects his ability to make certain throws, specifically the tight intermediate throws where he needs to arc the ball over the underneath coverage and get it back down before the safety or deep help can get there. If he was 6'3" he'd have a serious shot at being one of the best ever Imo. Then again if he was tall he might have never developed the skill set that makes him who he is. Either way I love his game and it's impossible not to root for him. I played QB at 5'10'' so seeing him have success gives me a special kind of satisfaction.

 

Oh, it's possible not to root for him. I love in the NW. All I head is how RW turns water into wine. I get it, they're excited, but I also think he's overhyped. I question what happens when Lynch leaves and Carroll can't protect him as much. He's been really good, he's come up really clutch, but he still hasn't driven the bus. That's all anyone is saying. The keys to that team success right now are
1. Defense
2. Lynch
3. RW

He had hella safety nets right now, and that's FINE. I just don't think he's demonstrably better than a lot of other QB's right now. I'd put him in/near the top 10 or so

Rodgers
Manning
Brady
Luck
Brees
Romo

Id take them all before RW. I'd have a hard time saying I would take him above Rivers, Rothelisberger (rape allegations aside) Matty Ice. RW would fall in my top 10, but I wouldn't put him way far ahead of the Flaccis and RT's of the world at this point.

 

And so why should that comparison between the two teams even occur?

 

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It occurs because people compare Tannehill to Wilson, and come to the conclusion that Tannehill isn't good, because Wilson has had more success. What I'm showing is that, regardless of individual performances, the team's records are basically the same when both defenses play poorly, at least this season. I looked at this season, because this is the first season that Tannehill has put up really good numbers, and looked like the future QB for us. When Wilson's defense didn't hold teams to under 20 points, they lost far more than won this season. When Tannehill's defense didn't hold teams to under 20 points, they usually let up 30+ points, and the team lost far more than they won. Point is, one guy had to score 30+ to have a chance when his defense sucked, and one guy had to score 20+ when his defense sucked (read, played average), as the average points scored in the NFL this season was 22.6. That is a huge difference between the two. Tannehill was the offense in Miami, and was under pressure to routinely score 30+ points, while Wilson had a very good run game to assist him, and had a defense, that on a bad day, was still holding teams to around the league average.

 

I think its intellectually dishonest of you to discount perception from your end of the argument. You are clearly implying that the defenders of 17 are having their perception clouded by homerism, but you and the others are flat out ignoring the common clouding of perception by team success on Wilson.

They are a great team and he's a HUGE part of it, but if he had to play with Miami's defense, things would be different.

Its also intellectually dishonest for you to discount the effects of the defense on their own QB. For example, if you don't understand how going into late 3rd quarter down by 3 requires a different play call strategy then being down by 14, then I'm fairly certain you've never actually watched game of football, only a spreadsheet of numbers afterwards.

 

I agree here. Wilson was drafted to play baseball, that shows his athletic ability. He played really well and 2 major colleges. His interviews were outstanding. He showed his willingness to work and work and work. JUSt blows my mind how so many GM's including ours passed on him.

 

Are you serious here? Did you not see Wilson lob\drop the ball over the defenders had on many throws in the SuperBowl? Gheesh he does that all the time and very accurately.

 

Piston was speaking about intermediate passes, not long. He definitely throws a very nice deep ball.

 

Well, just to be clear, I'm not one of those people. There are far more facets of a team than quarterback play. Coming to the conclusion that Tannehill isn't good because Wilson has had more team success is clearly a simpleton approach to analyzing the play of an individual player. I wouldn't even give that a retort.

That isn't true, using the definition of "play poorly" you've selected (surrendering 20 or more points in a game).

When the Seahawks surrendered 20 or more points in a game in 2014, they surrendered on average 26 points in those games, and their win percentage in those games was 33%. When the Dolphins surrendered 20 or more points in a game in 2014, they surrendered on average 31 points in those games, and their win percentage in those games was 20%. Those win percentages translate roughly to a 5-11 regular season record for the Seahawks, and a 3-13 regular season record for the Dolphins.

 

If Wilson is benefitting from being in favorable situations more frequently, then when he's in unfavorable sitautions, his play should get worse. That isn't the case, however. Case closed on that.

 

Sure. What was the Seahawks record when surrendering 30+ points? They were 0-2 when the defense gave up 30 or more points. A defense that gives up on average 15.8 points giving up more than 20 is playing poorly, in regards to their norm. When a defense that is averaging 16 points a game gives up more than the league average of 22.6, they are playing poorly. In those games, where the defense played poorly, Wilson's individual statistics still didn't have the team winning. Not sure how you can argue that the Seahawks allowing more than the league average isn't them playing poorly. Again, though, when the Dolphins defense played poorly, they let up 30+. They did that 5 times this season. Tannehill and the Dolphins won one game when allowing 30+. The Seahawks allowed 2 games of 30+ points. Wilson and the Seahawks were 0-2 in those games.

All you're really doing is proving my point. The Seahawks defense holds a lot of responsibility for their wins. If the Seahawks had played defense all season the way the Dolphins did, it certainly looks like they would not have had the record they had.

 

You can't even compare the unfavorable positions, though. Unfavorable for Wilson is absolutely freaking normal for Tannehill. In fact, unfavorable for Wilson is kind of a vacation for Tannehill. Unfavorable for Wilson is having to score between 20-28 points. Unfavorable for Tannehill was having to score between 30-38 points. Again, though, Wilson knowing that his defense usually shut down offenses made his unfavorable situations seem not as unfavorable. He had confidence in his defense. Did Tannehill have any shred of confidence in his defence?

Talking stats is silly, sometimes. I can go hit a free throw right now. Can I hit 10 in a row? Almost definitely not. Why? Because the closer I get to 10 in a row, the harder it will be for me to do it. I'm not shooting freely. Same concept with Tannehill vs Wilson. When Tannehill is looking at 3rd down, he's not thinking about taking a shot downfield, and not worrying if it isn't completed, cause he's seen his defense wilt over and over...Wilson is letting if fly with little worry, because he's seen his defense shut down opponents over and over and over again. See the NFC Championship game, for example.

 

A defense that surrenders 30+ points is playing poorly, period, regardless of its norm, because the norm in the league is nowhere near 30+. NFL teams in general won only 11 of the 126 games in 2014 in which they surrendered 30+ points. That's less than a 9% win percentage. And you expect there to be a big difference between the Seahawks and Dolphins in that regard, on the basis of a small sample for both teams in 2014?

No doubt, but it's also the case that Wilson has responsibility for their wins. When Wilson has played at a below average level in terms of QB rating, the Seahawks are 8-7 during his career. That's vastly different from their overall record of 36-12 during that period. When Wilson plays at a below average level, the Seahawks and Dolphins are indistinguishable. Both teams are about 0.500.

 

How so?

 

You'll have to read through the rest of the thread. The data are all there, compliments of myself and others.

 

I feel like I'm trying to explain human nature to a computer.