I'm kind of shocked the forward progression thing is even a discussion. Catches like that are marked first downs like this pretty regularly in every game. I guess I'll have to cut up a few examples.
Another possibility is they screwed us again on that play and spotted it wrong. The way he asked Philbin "first down, right?" was like it was a complete no brainer, like of course you want this option, the other option would be dumb. But the decision between taking the 3rd and 1 from the twenty and 1st and 10 from the thirty is something you would probably want to take a second to mull over. My feeling based on all the evidence is there was another major **** up by the refs beyond just the inadvertent whistle on that play. Like either they spotted the ball wrong by 4 or 5 yards or they meant to give us the first down on the play but walked off the penalty yardage instead in error. It would be hard to believe though after they all got together and discussed it for a minute. Combined with the game day clerical error none of it makes any sense.
Officials error seems most likely to me. The spot after the catch, and the early whistle. There is just no way I can logically believe they gave Philbin the choice of a 1st down at the 23 or a 1st down at the 33, and he took the latter. The spot on the catch had to be short of a 1st down. Gibson is on his knee, and getting up to run, at the 25 when the whistle is heard.
Then why does it look like the official is spotting Gibson either right at, or before the first down marker if forward progression doesn't apply there and the whistle is blown when he's on the 25?
I don't know why it looks like that. I get it that your original premise when posting the video was that Philbin was given the option of take the play, a completed catch, and it being a 1st down at the 23, or take the penalty and a 1st down at the 33. And, just because he cannot math gud, he took the worse choice. If for no other reason, based on what S126 posted in the Club thread, Philbin did not have both those two choices.
Section's explanation doesn't make sense either. If there's no play than there's no penalty either. But clearly a penalty happened. In Sections's scenario, the refs are just making **** up on the fly. It's definitely possible but I don't know how likely it is.
My only guess, is based on where Gibson was when we heard the whistle. on his knees and starting to get up, at the 25. So, basically giving Philbin the options of 3rd and 2 at the 25, or 1st and 10 at the 33. Whatever possibilities any of us can come up with, IMO, it is too presumptuous to assume that Philbin had the choice of a 1st and 10 at the 23, and was so stupid, he took the 1st and 10 at the 33. Whatever anyone here thinks of Philbin as a coach, he is not a moron.
The ref who is spotting it close to the first down marker is doing so based on the assumption that Gibson was touched down. But he wasn't touched so it was an inadvertent whistle. I'd bet this is what the refs were talking about. Once it is determined that it was an inadvertent whistle the ball is spotted where it was at the time of the whistle not where it would have been had the ref been correct in blowing the whistle.
Also, if roy_miami is correct that you can hear the official asking Joe Philbin, "You want the first down, right?" then this does not fit at all with Joe Philbin's cover story that the officials gave him no choice. So between that and the fact that there physically could not have been a whistle blown prior to Gibson's catch (as the whistle was not physically in the official's mouth), I have my doubts about Philbin's cover story. I think Philbin may have misunderstood what they were trying to tell him, and now he's just running with what he understood the situation to be rather than what actually might have been the case. Like I said, I would love to know the NFL's official stance on what happened, whether they believe Gibson did in fact make a catch or not. The gamebook records a catch. They have the wrong yardage but they still recorded a catch.
The only scenario that makes sense other than the refs screwing up is that Gibson was not awarded a first down. Otherwise, why would the ref even ask Philbin what he wanted to do? "Do you want a 1st down on the 23 or the 33?" No ref is going to ask a coach that. It's a waste of time.
I'm not even sure who is supposedly arguing that the refs awarded Gibson a first down. I think it's pretty clear from the video they did not as that line judge 107 was walking up and put his foot down about half a yard shy of the sticks. What a few of us are saying is that a challenge should have been considered due to the video evidence (which I believe is clear) that Gibson did in fact secure the football beyond the first down marker. Everyone keeps going on this snipe hunt digging up evidence that they didn't actually award Gibson the first down. It's barely relevant to the argument that Philbin shouldn't have accepted the penalty.
I don't know if things have changed this year with the new challenge system but I know last year they didn't have audio so if the challenge involves anything to do with the whistle I'm not sure how they sort that out. It would make sense that inadvertent whistles are not challengeable (or weren't unless things have changed) but I'm not sure. Even if you were allowed to challenge it I don't think you would win, in fact I'm almost positive it would be a wasted challenge. I'm not exactly sure on the rules but I do know you aren't allowed to challenge the spot just to gain yards, it has to be for a first down or TD. So even if the spot was off by a few yards if its still clearly short of the first down I don't know if they would re-spot in that case or just simply say we got the spot wrong but its still not a first down so you lose the challenge.
I can't wait to get rid of philbin....the dolphin have gotten rid of some much talent for him like he's some type of guru. Brandon Marshall would have been a great weapon for t.hill but soon as philbin got here he made the team get rid of him. Then Reggie bush, Karlos dansby
