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3-4 or 4-3?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by the 23rd, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    I'd like to know why we have stuck with the 4-3 without so much as an occasional change-up to the 3-4 defense. can you enlighten me? is it too late to install? would it make any difference with our LB problem? seems like the LBs we have on the roster would be better suited to the 3-4. what do you think?
     
  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    haven't seen you post in awhile. but to your question, you can't really make that kind of wholesale change right before the season starts. I can only assume we favor the 4-3 because it plays to the strength of this team - which is the Dline depth. I can't see our LBs functioning better in a 3-4, the exception being Dion Jordan.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    34 43 either way they screwed up with the # 3 overall pick..he'd be a groundbreaking Sam linebacker at 6'7 245-250 with a complete skillset movement wise and great measurables and size.
     
  4. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Potentially. He would potentially be a groundbreaking Sam linebacker, but I don't ever expect him to be.
     
  5. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    You're right, IMO we have a front 7 composed of players who would be great fits in the 3-4 (assuming everyone is healthy and not suspended), plus R. Jones was a better fit when we ran that scheme too. However, Coyle is a 4-3 guy and thats what he's running. I think its that simple. Either way, our D should be really strong once we get past the BYE and get Jones and Jordan back.
     
  6. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Don't worry, I suspect there will be some major changes on the coaching staff after this season. Hopefully the new DC next year will be smart enough to use Jordan as an outside LB in a 3-4 defense.

    If Coyle somehow does return as the DC next year. The Dolphins should just trade Jordan, because it is a complete waste of time to play him at DE.
     
  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Dolphins do occasionally use 3-4 fronts, and make quite frequent use of the kind of Nickel/passing down formations you would see utilized by a 3-4 team- Which I think is more important personally.

    In terms of them "switching", I think that's up in the air. I think the main value would be in being able to more easily negotiate some of the issues with Wake being a left-side defender and the team having loads of edge defenders without a clear "strong-side" type guy. However, if Dion Jordan continues his pre-season play in more of a 6-technique type role like he did then I think it's kind of a moot point.

    If Dion Jordan does not play well in that role, and/or if Chris McCain and Terrence Fede develop into contributors, then I think there's grounds that a 1-gap 3-4 becomes a better use of your personnel on defense.

    If/when the current coaching staff is blown out, I think it's certainly something that merits consideration.
     
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  8. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Really? Dion's the guy I could see most excelling in a 3-4. You could use him off the edge or as a Lawrence Timmons type coverage MLB. You can do more with him in a 3-4 then anywhere else. Imagine throwing over him in the middle of the defense? What a nightmare.
     
  9. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think there are also other issues besides the "edge rusher" component.

    You're not really fixing the "true" linebacker component, you still don't have clear answers at the ILB positions.

    You're also potentially raising as equally big an issue with the down linemen. You've got to have a Nose Tackle and three or four heavy contributors at defensive ends. If you're switching to a 2-gap 3-4, now you're potentially looking for a starting Nose Tackle, and then I'm a little skeptical if Fede and Shelby can be 2-gap guys.
     
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  10. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    It should be noted that Ellerbee made his bones as 3-4 LB with the Ravens. Wheeler pass rushing ability would be best fit in the 3-4.

    However with a 350lb NT going to a 3-4 is a moot point.
     
  11. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Their D is more of a hybrid than a true 3-4 or 4-3. And let's not forget he played next to arguably one of the smartest (on-field) LBs that's ever played the game in Ray Lewis.
     
  12. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Never been a fan of the 3-4 as a base defense. Personally I like hybrid defenses like Seattle is running and/or just mixing in 3-4 looks.
     
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  13. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Right now, we have a DL better suited for the 4-3. With Solai gone, we don't have the true NT which is needed for the 3-4. However, things are mixed up so often, from play to play.
     
  14. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I am still fond of the days with Taylor and Ogunleye coming off the edges and wreaking havoc on Brady and Manning. Remember that game when they broke his jaw. " They beat the s--t out of me!!!" Oh man, that was so beautiful. Of course, we had the man roaming the middle which we certainly don't have now, but hopefully one of the new guys steps up there. I'll take a player with half of Zach's talent right now.
     
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  15. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think their defense will end up looking pretty similar to Miami's due to losing Red Bryant, at least in terms of the front 7 and how they line up. He was the main reason they could play a lot of their varied looks so effectively. There just aren't that many 6'4" 320lbs guys that move the way he does.

    That said, they still have a veritable arsenal of pass-rushers with Avril, Bennett, Irvin, and Schofield. Brandon Mebane is still a god among men as far as 1-technique DTs go. Plus in addition to Irvin both K.J. Wright and Malcolm Smith are a lot more versatile than Philip Wheeler and Dannell Ellerbe at OLBs. Though I'd argue that Miami might really be on the right track with Chris McCain in that regard.
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought that was Lorenzo Bromell who fractured Manning's jaw.
     
  17. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    True, when Ray went down Ellerbee assumed the leadership position and if I remember correctly the Ravens were pissed when he bolted.
     
  18. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    umm, that's what I just said.
     
  19. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Was it? It may have been. I don't exactly remember who was the one who actually broke it. I just remembered they were all abusing him all game. I think that was a final straw hit.
     
  20. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Personally I think this debate gets overblown. We run a hybrid anyway with plenty of 3-4 alignments. The only problem is the linebackers have not been good. It's not a scheme thing, IMO.
     
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  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Agreed.

    Plus Miami has only two players who I would say might do better in a 3-4. That is Odrick and Dion Jordan. The rest of the players are either just as good in a 4-3 or a 3-4. Or they are players that are better in a 4-3. Plus Miami doesn't have the linebackers for a 3-4. You can't have a linebacker problem and run a 3-4.
     
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  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't really get the idea that Dion Jordan should be a 3-4 OLB. It was his college position, sure, but he's not a finished player and he's got physical upside which suggests he could be asked to and succeed at different things.

    He's being asked to play a bit of a different position than he did in college- But he's performed well, and it's beneficial to the defense. He's played more of a 6-technique position, and in some circumstances may end up sandwiched between a tackle and tight end. However, he ended up rated #6 overall among all 4-3 defensive ends on PFF for the preseason, and appears to have made strides in terms of run defense.

    It's valuable in terms of the defense because the Dolphins don't line up with two wide rushers like a Tampa-2 or Wide-9 style defense. They've got a wide edge rusher and a guy closer, and they've had to come up with some interesting combinations. Last year they wanted Olivier Vernon to do it, but he got his *** kicked the first two weeks. When Cameron Wake went down, Derrick Shelby(whom is more of a run defender, psuedo 3-4 DE) came in to that spot and let Vernon play the edge rusher position, which he excelled at. When Cameron Wake came back, he started playing the more interior technique. He didn't miss a beat in terms of pass rush, but his run defense suffered. If Dion Jordan can play the position at 6'7" 275lbs, it lets Cameron Wake play his natural position and puts the alignment in a little bit more natural position.

    It doesn't mean Jordan isn't going to cover, either. He's dropped into coverage in preseason, and done so in a fashion that is more than what the average 3-4 OLB is asked to do.
     
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  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    One thing I disagree with is that Derrick Shelby is more of a run defender. He made the team because of his ability to rush the passer. He is a much better pass rusher than he is a run defender.
     
  24. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Eh, he started off his college career as a way-undersized Nose Tackle at Utah, and Miami seems to use him more as a 6-technique/occasional 3-4 DE/reduction end than wide of the tackle. Philbin said he gained weight and strength since last off-season(5-7 pounds) on the 280 pounds he was listed at last year.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He talked mostly about working out with Cameron Wake so he can be used in the speed package.
     
  26. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    We run a hybrid which, last year, did show up as 3-4 anywhere near enough.

    3-4 for me. Players are more suited for it.
     
  27. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    As an interior player. He played DT in those looks last year. A lot of the time Miami had he and one of the three between Starks, Odrick, and Vernon both playing 4-techniques directly over the guards with Wake and Jordan/OV on the outside.

    Also, as it relates to Jared Odrick and the 3-4, but didn't he drastically shoot up PFF's rankings as a 4-3 DT, mostly playing 3-technique last year? I swore at at least one point in the season he and Starks were both in the top 10.
     
  28. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thank you for simplifying what I've said in several other threads. I hope a lot of posters see this post. :up:
     
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  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It wasn't for his run defense
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i really don't see the need to go to a 34, we have much to much Dline personnel for that, all we need to do is have the kid drop the weight and play Sam..once McCain gets up to speed at the will, were good to go.
     
  31. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They don't grow on trees.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You know the respect I have have for both you and Pate, I still disagree with your asses, lol..his physical tools tell me something different, and you don't have this type of player add 30 lbs, movement is key with this player, he's super tall, and his coordination at the height is exceptional, unnecessary weight gain puts the proverbial monkey wrench into the engine.
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Earl Mitchell will make us forget about this nose tackle 34 stuff, and remember Shelby worked out with wake this summer, he should be quicker, stronger.
     
  34. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Looking forward to seeing what Mr Earl can do this year. I expect to seeing him run some guys down.
     
  35. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, Mitchell's spot is practically the same as it was in Houston where he was a 3-4 NT. And with respect to Jordan, I think he's going to be fine as a DE in base packages AND still play diverse roles in sub-packages as he did last year. Think of it this way, you're essentially robbing Cameron Wake having a greater impact so you can play Dion Jordan, at this point clearly the lesser player of the two, to play him in space more and not maximize him as a pass-rusher AND specialist player? Why? It's a detriment to the whole defense, IMO.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    so having play Dion at Sam is making wake lesser of a player?

    Not having Dion at Sam at 250 is making us a worse team.

    You think he's going to be fine at 275 doing some of the other things, I don't believe he will be as effective.

    My stance is about how to evolve the Player into his potential, you do not take a perfect specimen of a physique and do what they did, you sacrifice coordination, balance and speed...all of those things, to the detriment of Dion Jordan, were clearly on display in preseason..some positive things he did do is just a testament to his talent, I had much bigger expectations than having no sacks and playing the run better against 2nd, 3rd, and 4th stringers, and watching him stumble around.

    I know what I seen, I know what y'all are saying, at what he is now, doesn't add up to what he could be at the weight I suggest..

    The ultimate specimen should of been trained to gain 3 to 5 lbs of muscle while keeping the ratio the same, this way you increase the strength without sacrificing the speed or foot movement..the actual muscle gain on that type of plan would move the body around even quicker..hence the phrase, bigger, stronger, faster...
     
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  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    and what would you like to do with Vern?
     
  38. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He'd be part of the rotation at DE with Jordan and play on the interior in sub packages like last year where he was ver effective. He may not be a "starter" in that manner but he's going to play a lot of snaps.
     
  39. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, Chris McCain may just render Dion Jordan at LB moot. And yes, I think having Jordan on the line opposite Wake serves the total D better, plus you can still use him in specialized roles in sub packages. I think Jordan at full time LB bastardizes what he can be good at, and Miami wanted to go that route, having someone like Kevin Pierre-Louis (Seattle depth player) would have provided a serviceable player in that capacity much later in the Draft. Just my opinion.
     
  40. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Just reposting for people to read again
     

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