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Dion Jordan bust?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It is sarcasm!

    You are being WAY to literal. You are literally being too literal.
     
  2. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    :lol: Fair enough.
     
  3. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    You're calling B.S. on what exactly? You're not even talking about the same thing I am.


    Basal metabolic rate is the minimum amount of calories (energy) required by the body to sustain itself (ex: being in a coma). This will not vary in the context in which people use the terms, slow" or "fast" when referring to metabolism.

    Example 1: Everyone who is 5'10" has roughly the same BMR (metabolism), barring a medical disorder.
    Example 2: If I had a "slow" metabolism, I'd burn like, 60-85 calories less per day. If I had a "fast" metabolism, I'd burn like, 60-85 more calories per day.

    The significance between fast and slow metabolisms... is insignificant (Assuming you're healthy). A myth.

    What you're referring to is RMR (resting metabolic rate) and Total Daily Energy Expenditure.

    RMR refers to the calories (energy) required to sustain the body’s most basic functions. Which includes variables such as, and primarily, lean body mass.
    TDEE is comprised of 4 primary variables. BMR + Thermic Effect of Food + Thermic Effect of Activity + Adaptive components (like being sick for example).

    Example: A 5'10" man, weighing 250lbs, at 35% body fat, watching TV will burn less calories/use less energy than a 5'10" man, weighing 150lbs, at 10% body fat, watching TV. They're metabolisms are not equal.




    Thus ends the lesson for today.
     
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  4. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    LOL, that was a lesson. I think you proved me right...but maybe not. So I'll call BS again! :yes:

    Honestly, I have no idea if you're right or wrong, but I'll take your word for it. From what I can see though, your definition of RMR and Total Daily Energy Expenditure are what us layman's would call metabolism. Maybe in the fitness world it's broken down even further, but the simple answer is that people in shape burn more calories/fat throughout the day.
     
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  5. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    You're correct that Dion Jordan falls under the category of "genetically elite." There isn't in athlete in the NFL who likely doesn't. Although I'm sure there's a degree of variance between elites. Despite being genetically elite, it's borders ridiculous to assume an athlete of Dion's caliber and advancement could put on 15-20lbs of muscle in a 6th month period without PEDs.

    Let's get this out of the way right of the bat.
    There are not definitive studies that can be reported at this moment in time.

    If you want definitive proof w/scientifically backed studies about the nature of muscular potential, I can't give them to you. No one can. If that's a deal breaker, don't read forward. It's a waste of your time.

    Having said that, there is a very strong standard which is widely considered the benchmark in the bodybuilding world. Bodybuilders, whom I would place under the genetic elite category, have created guidelines based on their experiences and observations. The following is from Lyle McDonald's bodyrecomposition website. Here are the 4 models which are generally accepted as accurate in the BB world. The first two are more in-line with the average man. The second two are more in-line with pro-bodybuilders.



    Both models roughly predict the same thing. Aragon suggests that it's possible to gain slightly more muscle.


    Both models, despite being produced with different math, they produce very similar results.

    For fun: Although I don't have Dion Jordan's wrist and ankle measurements to do CB's calculator, I did put his numbers into the Berkhan equation. Interestingly enough, I came to the conclusion his muscular potential was 223lbs of lean body mass. If you go back and check in this thread, I had him right around there coming out of college based on height, weight, and my BF estimate of him. [DUKE VOICE]Damn I'm good...[/DUKE VOICE]



    This is why it's very hard to believe an athlete (genetically elite), even one described as "no ordinary human being..." can put on 15-20lbs of lean muscle within a 6th month window. In fact, Jordan weighed 226 lbs at the end of his senior season. He put on about 20 last year. And another 20-25 this year. So we're talking 50lbs or so in two years... And he's managed to roughly stay in the 10% body fat range. We're talking 40lbs of muscle, minimum.

    Now, I'm not a rocket biologist... However, Given what I know about the fitness/bodybuilding world, that sounds ****ing impossible...
    Full article: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html


    For reference:
    Lyle MacDonald: Degree in exercise physiology from Berkeley. Former athlete (inline speed skater). Former trainer. Despite not being a human biologist, Lyle is considered the most influential nutritionist in the last decade. Has written 8 critically acclaimed books. Ever hear of the ketogenic diet? Lyle wrote literally the book... His website is awesome and free. Read it if you like fitness.

    Alan Aragon: Bunch of degrees, including masters in nutrition. Has worked with the Commission on Dietetic Registration, National Academy of Sports Medicine, and National Strength & Conditioning Association. Peer-reviewed scientific literature has been published all over, including the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. Appears in all kinds of popular media, such as men's heath and the like. Former personal trainer. Never a human biologist.

    Martin Berkhan: Degree in field unrelated humans or biology or even nutrition for that matter... Revolutionized the fitness industry with his diligent research into intermittent fasting. Current trainer. Soon to be author? If he ever finishes his book. Has a website (leangains.com). His main credibility is that guys like Lyle and Alan back him.

    Casey Butt: Natural bodybuilder and fitness researcher. Don't even know if he has a degree. Like Martin, his credibility has been established by the admiration of the top fitness guys in the industry.
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    We know he is taking PEDs, however the contention I have is this idea that people know for a fact that it is steroids.

    By the guys model it takes an average human 4 years to put on 40lbs to 50lbs.

    No where in the article does it state that it is "Impossible". His article is about regular jagoffs who are super athletes who are the best out of the best. People who do not have the best workout science that money has to buy backing them up.

    He is taking something, but we do not know what it is.

    Chris McCain has gained 25lbs since the combine. Is he automatically on steroids now?
     
  7. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I get the sense that people are in the know and have found out specifically what he was suspended for. Even if that's true and he wasn't suspended for steroids specifically that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't on steroids.
     
  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It also doesn't mean he was on steroids. He could be on HGH or something else.

    The claim of steroids just seems so lazy.
     
  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Y'all are to worried about proving your point, being smarter than the other and not just talking common sense here, he didn't take steroids..
     
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  10. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that nobody is fessing up to testing positive for steroids, like 0% and I'm sure at least some of the players saying they were on something other than steroids are lying and actually were on steroids so I'm just going to go ahead and assume every single PED suspension likely was steroids.
     
  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    As I said several pages ago, before all these chemistry lessons started, I was told from someone very close to this situation that it was not an infraction that had the team extremely worried. Honestly though, all of these arguments pale in comparison to the actual result- and that's a Dion Jordan that is struggling to earn a starting roster spot. I'm a lot more worried about that than the name of the actual ingredient that he was busted for.
     
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  12. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    That's the most logical conclusion. I can't say it's a fact, but I believe it strongly.

    If you read the article, especially parts from the two bodybuilders (Berkan and Butt), it's pretty clear that natural athletes whom are genetically elite cannot just put on god-like 40-50lbs of lean mass in two years. Just because the article doesn't outright say "impossible", doesn't mean it's not saying it's impossible. It's pretty clear what the article is saying.

    The best workout science? lol what? Working out at a top level (especially in football) hasn't drastically changed in the last 5, 10, 15 years. In fact, drastically is too drastic of a word. It hasn't changed. The same principles and concepts still exist. I can give you an old sample NFL strength and conditioning manual from an NFL team. It's pretty basic stuff that almost anyone in the sports world/lifting world knows. I'd like to see examples of "workout science" that only an NFL athlete can afford.

    http://assets.houstontexans.com/assets/fanzone/Texans strength manual.pdf


    We know that we don't know. Those of us who're familiar with the bodybuilding/weight lifting world have suspicions based on our knowledge and/or background.

    No. I don't know what his BF% was before or after. I couldn't begin to give an opinion on McCain without more information. That's not the case with Dion Jordan.

    If you have read through the prior discussions (and must have, with your dig about human biologists), then you will have noticed very specific topics about the type of weight DJ has put on. 25lbs isn't created equal.

    If you know anything about bodybuilding, you know that you HAVE to put on fat in order to put on muscle. You must be a caloric surplus. Calories are partitioned different among active weight lifters. Some calories are partitioned specifically to the muscles in order to heal. Unfortunately, you cannot dictate how much. Naturally... That's a genetic issue and hormone issue and I'm not getting into that, atm. Any excess calories (majority) will be stored as fat.

    Testosterone changes the equation though... Especially in high doses. You can eat a caloric surplus, recover, and barely gain any fat (depending on your specific caloric surplus) all the while being able to progressive overload (the foundation of muscle building) in the weight room.

    This is because
    A). caloric partitioning benefits of testosterone. It limits fats storage. Energy (calories) cannot be destroyed. They're shuttled into the muscle
    B). Testosterone's anabolic recovery properties are intense.

    Hell, it's shown in studies that you don't have to even lift weights when taking elevated levels of testosterone. It builds lean muscle just being present. A 14 week cycle could produce around 6 lbs of lean mass with no weight lifting. Put it this way. A normal person can perform their 3 rep max once per week because they can't recover quickly enough. Testosterone would allow them to do that every two days if they ate properly and not gain too much fat.

    Dion Jordan at 226lbs (as a senior) was 7-8% bodyfat. He gained 25lbs in before his rookie year... He weighed 251 at the combine. He looked to be in good shape. Body fat wasn't high. All in 4-5 months. He did the same thing again this year. Given the stands the entire bodybuilding have accepted as true, it's highly probable that Dion Jordan was using anabolic steroids.


    I don't know his test results. I can't say what it is with definitive proof. But I have legitimate reasons for believing what I do.
     
  13. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    They can't even test for HGH yet... And that does many similar things as testosterone based steroids. In fact, HGH increases natural production of testosterone.

    Bull****. You don't know anything about the bodybuilding industry or steroids. Yet, you have no problem making assertions about something you don't understand and mock those who're putting in effort to write about it. Lazy? WTF?
     
  14. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Where are you getting your numbers from? I've seen him listed at 223# as a freshman, (came in as a wr) up to 240# by the time he was a junior. He also seems to have gone from 6' 7" to 6' 6".
     
  15. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    I'm wondering how Dion Jordan is getting reps against the 3rd string offensive line of the bucs and he is not making a huge impact. He should be dominating that competition, kind of concerning.
     
  16. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    I would trade him today to Philly for something we could use for the next 3-4 years. Not sure what the most needed position is but we could get a good player and a draft pick for him. A part of me thinks hes dogging it so he can be traded to play with Philly and play his natural position.
     
  17. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    From Dion Jordan who said his weight dipped to 226lbs during his senior year. Jordan measured slightly over 6'6" at the combine. FWIW, JT was listed at 260 his whole career. He's always joked about it.
     
  18. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I'm not worried about Jordan or our staff or any of it. Hell, 3 of the final 4 teams in the playoffs last year were also 3 of the 4 teams leading the league in PED suspensions with the Seahawks and Broncos at one and two. The cheating seems to be an advantage if anything, even with the suspensions.

    What I'm worried about goes a lot deeper than Dion Jordan. What I'm worried about is the far reaching snowball effect that seems to be happening that has now become a problem even in high schools. I'm worried about the future ramifications for the NFL in general. Regardless of what he took Dion Jordan, and every player that cheats, deserves their Scarlett letter.
     
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The Refrigerator Perry was genetically elite? His momma would kiss you right now if she heard that!
     
  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    360lb men should not be able to move like that.
     
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  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hope that's not the case.
     
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  22. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Hard to dog it at full speed during game time. You "dog" it then you open yourself up to getting injured when you become lapse.
     
  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Personally, I think he's heavy legged from gaining unnecessary weight..but you have to be careful here because I'm sure he's well aware that chip Kelly tried to trade for him and we don't know that relationship, it could be close, and he's a human being, not a robot..if Kelly doesn't agree with the weight gain I'm sure he somehow got that message across to Dion...
     
  24. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    No he is basically still a rookie. Far from a bust.
     
  25. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    How do you think the appearance of being on steroids affects his status in the locker room? Right or wrong he already has an advantage in the competition for playing time as the third pick and now he's cheating on top of that? Guys fighting for a roster spot and thinking its a fair and square competition can't be too happy with Jordan.
     
  26. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    You're talking about the NFL. Big money and players livelihood is at stake. The list of players aren't juicing is smaller than list of those who're.

    Even Punters have been caught juicing...
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2182405
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    startin to see some other folks talking about the weight gain and that's it's not a good thing..there was nothing wrong with his body and quickness last year, give him natural weight gain, healthy shoulder, expand the diversity in his game, were havin a different convo.
     
  28. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with you here; there's no way that a PED suspension would change anybody's status in the locker room. Maybe a guy might catch grief for getting caught, but there are way more than 2 guys on this team who have taken PED's this past offseason.
     
  29. Califin

    Califin Well-Known Member

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    Trading a 2nd to pick a player third overall, who never develops into the superstar envisioned is dissappointing. Casting such a player aside prematurely, to perhaps see that player blossom elsewhere for lack of coaching, discipline, vision or most certainly patience, would be the ultimate embarrassment, a move that would not only be viewed as clueless, but one that can label a team and its era as historically inept.
     
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  30. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Did you take extra hyperbole with your coffee today? What a ****ing rubbish post.
     
  31. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    His rookie year was wiped out by poor coaching and the fact he was injured.

    Here we are, 2 weeks into the exhibition season of year two and he's a bust.

    Bookmark this thread. If he goes to a half dozen Pro Bowls I want to know who to call a ****ing moron.
     
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  32. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    At this point the question is how long do you let this bulked-up DE experiment go if he continues to struggle?
     
  33. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    That would be the saving grace for you, but right now he's a bust, therefore he is a bust and nothing, not even future pro bowls will change that.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    been saying this since i heard he was 270, jmo here, it would first take an honest step back by the coaches and admitting that it wasnt the right course, then tell him and the training staff starting today we want you to drop the weight, with our goal to have you at peak physical condition by week 5 AFTER the bye, apoligize to the kid as well.

    its completely obvious the kid has lost explosion, quickness and some lateral agility, please just let the kid be himself, and if their to stupid in their evaluation of his talent then let him go.
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    just read that the dolphins have a new head trainer...can anyone confirm that?
     
  36. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Did the last dude take his PEDs with him?
     
  37. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would cheer if every member of this forum sent me sequential messages calling me a moron if Dion Jordan went to half a dozen Pro Bowls in a Dolphins uniform. And I'll go you one better. When he goes to his first Pro Bowl, I will PM you so you can be reminded to call me a moron.

    In the meantime, opinions are like you. Everybody has one.
     
  38. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    This guy does not have one significant game, where he beasted out, in college or the pros'.

    In fact, his first sack in the NFL came with a personal foul and a first down for the offense. His 2nd and only other sack, the QB ran into him and fell down, while trying to escape the pocket and Cameron Wake. It was an utter accident.

    I hope he develops, I don't think he ever will. He's just to soft. There is no beast-mode. (See Cameron Wake - Definition of Beast Mode)

    I'd deal him for his potential tommorrow, and if I could get a 2nd and a 3rd, or even better a solid guard, it would be done.

    They moved Misi inside, he'll get his chance to shine this season.
     
  39. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Please......

    [​IMG]
    Please.....
     
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  40. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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