Exactly and you know what happened with that Nez, we absolutely unequivocally, against a lot of our demands right here on this site, wasted a perfectly elite pass rusher because of some idiotic evaluations by incapable coaches..it was obvious that cam wake was going to be special during his first preseason. Now I'm getting even more pissed off..lol
his body has the frame to carry an extra 5 to 7 lbs without losing any speed, with his metabolism I don't think he will hold that extra 20.. 52 stack monster is the only way to go...lol
And if he does, Dion taking over for Vern that is, and Vern does improve his game, then it doesn't make sense to keep him. Folks will not want to lose him if he improves but if you can't get a potential very good football player on the field starting then it's time to move him for a resource.
Exactly. I don't know when Dion Jordan became such a great player, I sure didn't see it last year and no one's even put pads on yet in 2014 so all of this seems a bit premature. In a 70 snap game the three of them will see 50+ snaps regardless of who's starting, more than enough for all of them to make a major impact while also staying fresh throughout the game. If they all start, fine. If not, cool. It's a good problem to have either way.
Why would we trade away a potentially dominant DE? Especially with Wake getting up there in age. The Giants won two Super Bowls with Umenioyora, Kiwanuka, Strahan, Tuck and then Tuck, Kiwanuka, Umenioyora and Pierre-Paul, no? I could see doing it for cap reasons but that's not an issue right now and shedding pass rushers b/c you have too many good ones is counter productive, to say the least.
The days are long gone when it was your best 11 against his best 11. 3 Wrs, 2TEs, Heavy Backfields etc. are the norm, and teams play 60-70% of their snaps without their 'base' personnel, and I haven't seen any stats for a while about what percentage of snaps have all 11 'starters' on the field, but I'd place a bet that it would be less than 20%. So I think the obsession about whether OV or DJ should be the starter or should both be starters is missing the point. With situational substitution we should be seeing our best 11 based on down, distance, opposing personnel and game situation. I remember the days when Trace Armstrong made a huge impact for the phins when he was kept fresh for obvious pass rush situations. Maybe, this is what DJ is best at this year, or maybe we start subbing DJ to cover Cam Wake in early downs and keep Cam Wake fresh for passing downs and lengthen his career. I'll be very happy as long as DJ is actually effective on the field this year, and I think that Corle will be smart enough to use him based on performance.
Sure it does. Look at Seattle's D-line last year. Their starters were Red Bryant, Brandon Mebane, Tony McDaniel, and Chris Clemons. They had Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett coming off the bench. Bruce Irvin came off the bench too until they decided to move him to LB. They also used Clinton McDonald to pretty good effect, and I think he may have played more snaps in the Super Bowl than Mebane and McDaniel. All that said, we've still got to see Dion Jordan actually improve on the field. We've got to see Olivier Vernon actually improve on the field. Both cases haven't happened yet. They seem likely, but it's not a certainty, and we won't know for another month or two.
And throughout his career they've been bouncing Kiwi back and forth between DE and OLB, and he's not even that good at LB. Now that the other guys are gone, Kiwi is full-time at DE where he was better anyway. Point is that they got him on the field even with all those other rushers. But Dion is just a different player than Bruce Irvin and the guys the Giants had. He's 6'7 pass rusher with hips and feet to cover some of the best TEs in the game or spy dual-threat QBs in space. He's a remarkably versatile talent because of his freaky athletecism. And he made plays last year. I'm sorry, there's just no excuse for not starting this kid. I've posted these before, but still...fantastic must-reads for any Dion thread. At DE: http://www.thechipwagon.com/eagles/2014/03/dissecting-dion-jordans-2013-season.html At LB: http://chipwagon.typepad.com/eagles...ns-2013-season-part-2-outside-linebacker.html
Coyle thinks he has a player that's going to explode this year, Vern is bigger, stronger, faster than last, wake is elite, none of them are specialists, must have all bases covered if they improve, looking at the roster, I don't think having wheeler and Ellerbe taking reps for any of them makes sense..
As a coach you don't have to wait for games to start to recognize whether your players have improved and what your going to do with them based in what your seeing in practice..you formulate your plan before games start.. Is Bruce Irvin going to start this year at linebacker?? When you take a player at #3 your investment is not just monetary, your all in..if you have another young player at the same position rising like Vern seems to be rising, you don't platoon both, not when both can play different positions, and you have inferior players at those other positions that your young players can play.
I don't think anyone's even mentioned anything about platooning. In today's NFL, with the amount of times teams pass, having a rotation is a necessity. And, at that, it's not like one player between OV or Jordan is going going to be off the field a majority of the time - quite the opposite actually - if they're both healthy, despite one of them not being a "starter". With that, I'll bow out of this thread. *Edit* - I'll add this. It's from Erik Frenz, who is pretty solid covering the AFC East. I'd reference the screenshots included in this link from the Jets game and how Miami incorporates Wake, Vernon, and Jordan on the field at the same time. I imagine we'll see a lot more of this in 2014 (scroll toward bottom of the page). http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ernons-breakout-season-for-the-miami-dolphins I've linked these before as well, but for those who haven't seen it: http://www.thechipwagon.com/eagles/2014/03/dissecting-dion-jordans-2013-season.html And http://www.thechipwagon.com/eagles/...ns-2013-season-part-2-outside-linebacker.html
Perhaps you missed my earlier comments when I stated that I would love to see Jordan at the outside LB spot in a 3-4 defense. If Coyle thinks Jordan would be better than Ellerbe or Wheeler in a 4-3 defense, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with Jordan taking over for one of these very below average LB's. The problem is that Coyle has stated that Jordan is going to remain at DE this season and therefore I just don't see him getting the reps at a LB position in preseason. So unless Jordan comes in and beats out Wake or Vernon for a starting job, I just see his role being basically what it was last year. It appears to be that you are simply upset with the role Coyle has established for Jordan at this time and you want Coyle to figure out another role for him. Perhaps that will happen if Jordan shows vast improvement this coming season, but right now it is Coyle who seems satisfied with Jordan's role remaining similar to what it was last year. It is up to Jordan to come in and show that he deserves to be on the field more and if he does, it will then be up to Coyle to find a way to get Jordan more involved in the defensive scheme throughout the game and not just on obvious passing downs.
Most defenses rotate players around, its not a big deal. Having guys on the field all game sounds great but if you start getting pounded in the 4th quarter because no one is fresh then its kind of pointless.
I don't think there is really any issue to "figure out" so much as it is they've got to trust Jordan with injury/run defense issues. They showed last season(at least to my satisfaction) that they're going to get all three on the field. It might not be in the base package, but I'm not sure that's really all that particularly important. You can give Wake/Vernon/Jordan an appropriate number of snaps without it.
We've had mediocre to poor rosters and have lacked depth for so long that some actual depth seems totally foreign to Dolphans now. I could see being nervous if Jordan and Vernon have both proven to be great but that's not the case, Vernon is probably at least good and Jordan has proven nothing to this point.
Not related to the D-Line or Jordan situation but at least one of our defensive newcomers loves Coyle: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...till-have-the-skills-i-just-have-to-prove-it/
What's the average % of snaps a starting DE typically takes over the course of a season? To be honest, I think being a "starter" in base packages is overrated. Base packages, while the type of defense you run gets named after them (34 vs 43 defense, etc)... the reality is that the majority of your defensive snaps are in nickle/dime packages. So... whether all 3 are in all the time as "starters" in base sets is overrated IMO. As long as they're on the field for the % of snaps your typical "starter" plays... that's all that matters.
This isn't overly complicated, if you have a player as talented and versatile as Dion, and you see him improving, and you think he's going to be an explosive playmaker for you like Coyle said, and he's 23 years old, you don't take him off the field.. It's the old cliche, get your best players on the field any way you can, because if they are your best players, they will figure out ways to make plays.
Everyone has to come off the field though bro. Vernon was a starter and only played 79% of the defensive snaps last year. I think you're the one making it overly complicated trying to rethink our defensive scheme to get them all in a "base" package that is used for the minority of our defensive snaps. They're all gunna play, and play a lot... and plenty with all 3 on the field in nickle packages (which will be the majority of our snaps)... so just don't over think it man, lol.
Would not surprise me if Jenkins beats out Wheeler. I WANT to like Phillip Wheeler's game just think he is more of a specialist then an every down starter
Take him off the field for rest only, just like any other starter, you don't sacrifice talent for pivitol first down play. Coyle needs to have all three players on the field starting come September.
Like Clean said... 79% = 8th most snaps for a starting DE. DEs don't play every down. Lets just do the math... We ran about 1,065 snaps last year on defense I believe. 79% = 840 snaps... so lets make that our target for all 3 of them (2,520 total snaps). If we run a nickel type of package 65% of our snaps, that puts us in a base 43 with only 2 of them out there 373 times, for a total of 746 available snaps for the DEs. For the nickel type packages, if all 3 play in our nickel (692 snaps), that's a total of 2,076 (692 x 3) available snaps for the DEs. So, 2,076 available snaps in nickel + 746 available snaps in base = 2,822. 2,822/3 would equal 940 snaps per player... 100 more than Vernon saw last year... which still leaves plenty of room for substitution with guys like Shelby. Now, I don't know what % of snaps we played in non-base packages last year (if anyone knows, please chime in!)... but the point is, if they're playing together in nickel packages, then there are plenty of snaps for all 3 DJ w/o getting crazy. And that's not including any snaps where Dion will occasionally get sprinkled in at OLB in a 43 look. I'm telling you... don't over think it my man, lol.
Good point and that's a good observation. Wake is in his 30's and how much longer he can produce at a high level is a question-mark in this league. We will have to replace him at some point.
The Giants model is a good one. All those players were effective. Having 3 pass rushers can be huge. My hope is that they use them effectively when they are all on the field. Jordan can be a Tuck-like pass rusher. And, he can also do some things in space which could benefit the team. What would really be great is if Jordan could become a solid OLB - ala Ted Hendricks. That could wreak havoc for offenses with 3 pass rushers on the field and one at SOLB (basically replacing Misi's position last year).
everything you stated here makes a lot of sense..but, when the game starts, we're not as good on defense if Dion or Vern is on the bench..advantage offense..when you are successful on first down you don't have to move out of your base offense..in those scenarios dion might be on the bench all three downs... This is a talent that can make one play and change the game..if I'm Coyle and I have the knowledge of the game, Dion and Vern are coming out on the field as starters, there is absolutely no way I'm having wheeler and Ellerbe starting over Vern or Dion..just not happening.
Incorrect, just the opposite. If you're successful on first down... then you will move out of your base b/c you're now in a 2nd and long scenario where you want to bring out your nickel personnel. Basically, the times when all 3 wont be on the field together would be obvious running scenarios... which would be the time, if any, that it would be ok to not have them all out there (again, these guys do need to take plays off at times too... so thats as good as any of a time to be able to give one a breather). Its the ability of all 3 to both get after the passer and drop in coverage that makes them valuable in terms of playing all 3 at once... not defending the run. Rotate them during the obvious running scenarios (the more physical, grueling plays that wear on you)... and have them all turned loose otherwise when their versatility can help create nightmares for opposing offenses.
I think it's worth noting that the position that linebacker position in the base defense that Dion Jordan would play isn't really a pass rushing position. Generally speaking even if the guy playing there is sometimes a Nickel edge rusher in the same defense, he's still more of a "true" linebacker in the base package. It's not like Von Miller's position in Denver.
DJ - I think you are putting to much stock in the term "starter". Last year the Phinsiders did a segment on it and they all agreed on how meaningless it has become. I couldn't find the clip but here is another article discussing how its become a subpackage world. http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/13/5...ree-agency-defense-seahawks-49ers-nickel-dime
Your not following me bro, I'm saying that if their offense is successful on first down they don't have to come out of their base.leaving our nickel on the sideline.
Good offensive coordinators do not have obvious running scenarios..my point is first down could very well be a passing scenario.
I disagree..putting your best players on the field is the way it needs to happen, are you telling me you would rather have Ellerbe or wheeler on the field over Dion or Vern in any situation? Especially first down..Dion moves better than both easily.
I get what you're saying... but there are still plenty of situations like short yardage and goalline where it wouldnt be advantageous for us to have 3 DEs on the field vs. an extra DT with more size... Also, pending on the offensive personnel, field position, score of the game, etc... there are plenty of scenarios that call for a nickel package on 1st down. If Week 1 opening snap... the Pats come out with 3WR... our "starting" defense is going to be a nickel defense. Thats one of the reasons why nickel packages are played so often these days, and much more than "base" packages... is b/c offenses are using 3-Wide more and more on first downs... and defense are going to match personnel-wise to defend it.
The best thing that could happen for us on the D-Line is for OV to keep improving and for DJ to take a major step forward. If we have 3 good pass rushers then we are in great shape no matter who is the "starter" We can get them all on the field together to wreak havoc and we can also divide their snaps so they are fresher later in the game and the season. It's a win-win. And that's not even counting Derrick Shelby who I like as a 4th option. You can never, ever have enough pass rushers.
yes Roc I get it, can never have enough pass rushers, there's lots of reps to go around, we've gone over these things, none of those things has anything to do with my concern. Ok, lets play another scenario. You have Von miller, Michael Johnson and DWare, your not gonna start one of those guys,?, cause just like our guys they can play multiple positions?
I think you are getting caught up in the semantics. Of course you want to get you best players on the field as often as possible but in today's NFL that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be part of the base package. The article I linked showed that teams are playing their subpackages 57% of the time which means those players are getting more snaps then a guy exclusively in on the base package.
