We have a potential three headed monster, Dion, Vern, Cam, it makes no sense to have any one of those guys sitting on the bench, they all can move, pass rush, drop, their all strong, great size, in great condition and very athletic, their all starters.. Ive asked this question before in Some roundabout context and I'm tired of hearing that all teams need a rotation, no, it's time we respect Vernon as a real NFL starter, rotation with these three freaks? are you kidding me? Vern has come along and improved and a high rate ( only 23), wake is an elite def end, and Dion has all the potential in the world and ready to play the game..I still haven't seen any logical reason why any of the three need to come off the bench, so I ask why, I mean really, why can't this be done, why are we having a competition at def end when they both have the athletic ability to drop and play outside linebacker, If were so freakin versatile like Coyle says than why can't he figure this out? Hell why can't we figure this out.? If you have a scenario please lets us know, I'll email it over to Coyle lol..
Obviously you'd like to have all 3 of them on the field in nickel/passing situations but I have no problem w Wake/Jordan/Vernon/Shelby rotating in the base D.
In this defense no I don't have a great scenario that really utilizes all three as pass rushing talents. Could still run it as a 3-4 but coyle isn't this creative. Closed end Starks NT Mitchell Open end Odrick OlBs wake and Vernon Ilbs misi and Jordan (let a qb try and throw over a 6'6" mlb who can pass rush lol)
you must be jokin with me Gm, this is a walking contradiction and is the exact reason why I started the thread, on one hand you say its obvious you would prefer all three on the field, but you will settle for rotation..
I'm not worried about it. 1. Its better to have too much of a good thing than not enough 2. One of the benefits of rushing the ball is o-linemen get to push these guys around to try and wear them out. We have the luxury of putting a fresh guy in. 3. The o-lineman is in a chess match throughout the game with the DE. Now he has to play chess against 2 players with pretty different pass rush skills. 4. Our hurry up could tire our own defense out when we have 3 and outs or turnovers 5. At minicamp Wake intercepted Tannehill 20-30 yards down the field covering Thomas. So it sounds like we are trying out ways to get our athletic DEs in more of a joker linebacker role more often. This is how good rosters are built. Not only do we have depth but these guys are going to push each other in the battle to win the spot and one or both may become even better than they ever would have without such fierce competition. We could have the same "issue" at CB with the Taylor-Finnegan battle, even Davis could be good. If our offense can step up and provide a bit of protection our defense has the potential to be great.
Your solution is that it's better to have more of a good thing than not enough and it breeds good competition?, all thru your post it seems to come from the angle that one of these guys are coming off the bench. Hmmm, we heard about reps at d tackle during the ota's, we know that's for nickel situations, but I guess there is no where to play all three on first down, unless we come out in the 34 on first down.?
If we suddenly appear as a straight 34 it'll be a wonder. I think we need to get used to the idea of a rotation. Could Mitchell even play the nose? I don't think we are locked in as a straight 43 anyway, if anything I think we'll end up as a very hybrid system. In boiks reply he had neither wheeler or ellerbe. Those dudes are making too much money to sit on a bench so that seems very unlikely. I doubt we could trade either of them if that was the plan.
Or perhaps we could play a 46 8 in the box and jordans athleticism as a SS. Is too ridiculous? Starks and Mitchell, Shelby and Vernon. Wake misi wheeler and Jordan. That's ridiculous right.
Until Jordan proves he deserves more playing time, I see no reason to force Coyle to play him more. Just because Jordan was a high pick doesn't mean he deserves more playing time if he isn't better than the two players in front of him on the depth chart. Jordan has to prove that he can be better against the run or he will just remain a player who is utilized on obvious passing downs. Perhaps Jordan will step up this year and be the player many thought he would be when he was drafted and that will force Coyle to come up with a defensive scheme which allows Jordan to be on the field more. Right now though, he is merely the third DE on the roster and like every other backup on the roster, he needs to show on the field that he deserves more playing time.
Yup. If its a close game or not obvious what they'll run we'll play it close to the vest with Vernon and Jordan substituting. If there are obvious passing downs whether it be third and long or if we have a nice double digit lead I would expect all 3 to be out there a lot. Jordan still looks like a tweener between DE and OLB. If you've seen Vernon's interview on Finsiders he looks absolutely jacked this season, he could pass for a tweener for DE and DT. I don't know what the technocal name is but on obvious passing downs I would expect a lot of 3 "DE" and 2 DT packages. But all 3 "DEs" could drop into coverage so I guess technically that would be called a 2-5? In some more rare passing situations I wouldn't even be surprised to see Shelby, Wake, Vernon and Jordan all on the field together with just one DT. One thing I've noticed, and I don't know if this is conventional or not or unique to our coaching staff, but against some athletic QBs it seemed to me our DEs weren't asked to rush the passer, or at the very least to not be too aggressive about it. I believe they were asked to simply make sure the QB couldn't scramble their way and all of our pressure came up the gut. Think when Jordan had the free run at Andrew Luck when Luck made him look silly with the fake pass, Jordan seemed to come up the middle from nowhere. I don't have the stats but I believe a lot of Vernon's sacks came as a result of trickery with him stunting through the middle of the line as opposed to pure pass rush ability. I do expect Vernon to be much better as a pure pass rusher this season though and I won't be surprised if he has double digit sacks again, or even the sack leader for us again. We could easily have 3 with double digit sacks this season.
Wasn't there some practice reps with OV moving inside? That would get all three on the field at the same time.
I'm talking about in non nickel situations.. Here's the deal Fin, don't you want to have the best players on the field?, isn't that the goal, not having your best athlete on the field when the game starts is not condusive to that strategy, lots of things can happen to a defense before it gets an oppurtunity to go to their nickel look, so I think the strategy of not adapting the defense and letting them rotate is the wrong decision.. No freakin way am I keeping the talent of one Dion Jordan or Olivier Vernon off the field unless they need a break.. How bout we look at the 52 defense.? Not getting these five guys on the field to start the game is a mistake it's all I'm sayin.
Call it what you want. I just think that a player has to earn his playing time based on his production on the field and not because of where he was drafted. Right now he is listed as a DE on the roster and he has two DE's who are better right now than he is. Maybe he will step up and beat out OV during the preseason, but if he doesn't, he deserves to remain as the third DE on the roster. I would rather he was moved to an outside LB spot in a 3-4 defense, but obviously Coyle prefers to run a 4-3. Therefore Jordan right now is stuck as a backup player who will get the majority of his playing time during obvious passing situations by the opposing team. I'm not sure why you think my reasoning is static. Especially when it appears the same reasoning Coyle is using at this time in relationship to the use of Jordan in the Dolphins defense. Of course you obviously think Coyle is also living in a, "static world".
Because it's about getting your best players on the field, Jordan flashed enough last year, is now healthy, more comfortable in the scheme, and he's more talented than anyone on the defense, he's not a bench player, the scheme needs to adapt when you have this much versatile talent.
I don't disagree with you and that is why I think the Dolphins should switch to a 3-4 defense and use Jordan the way Saban used Jason Taylor during his two years as the teams HC. While it makes sense to move OV inside and bring Jordan in as a DE on obvious passing plays. OV is not suited to be an inside player on the defensive line for more than obvious passing downs. So until Jordan proves that he is better than OV or Wake, Coyle appears satisfied with Jordan being the third DE on the roster. It is up to Jordan to show during the preseason that he deserves more playing time. While I agree Jordan flashed at times during last season. He also didn't get playing time on early downs because the coaches felt he was weak against the run. He has to prove to the coaches that he has overcome this weakness against the run before they are going to find more playing time for him. You seem a lot more concerned with the playing time of Jordan than Coyle or Philbin do at this time. Remember, Ireland drafted Jordan and he is no longer here. Philbin and Coyle both have their jobs on the line this year and I'm sure they are planning on putting their best players on the field as much as possible. Hopefully Jordan will show the coaches during the preseason that he deserves more playing time in 2014.
1. I think lining Jordan up at DT in passing situations is a mistake. Would rather have Jordan on the outside, Vernon on the inside. 2. I would love to see Jordan start at DE because over an entire season, I think he'd get 10 sacks and make some big plays. But, clearly Vernon has the starting DE nailed down right now. 3. Vernon is consistent, but Jordan has the greater potential to make big plays. Vernon just isn't a big play guy to me. He doesn't have the special length or explosiveness. Very good player, but ... 4. Given the current situation, I'd like to see Jordan playing some base 4-3 OLB (over Ellerbe), then see him shift to a DE in passing situations and move Vernon inside. 5. It's a better problem than not having anyone who can rush the passer from the DE slot. But, I also think players need reps to really produce. So, it's a tough situation. 6. But, I would not get too anxious with Jordan. He needs to work hard and be patient. So do fans. We should remember that Jason Taylor had an okay rookie season (5 sacks); a solid second season (9 sacks); but a really poor third seasons (2.5 sacks, 24 tackles total (!) in 15 games). He really didn't become a consistently great player until his 4th season. This should give us hope for Jordan (and someone should show Jordan JT's #s and inconsistency in those early years).
I agree with you totally on item #6. Because Jordan was drafted so high last year, some people assume he has to come in and be the starter this year. It doesn't seem to matter to them that Vernon and Wake are the better players at this time. Coyle doesn't want to move Jordan to the LB position at this time and Jordan obviously can't be moved inside to DT and he isn't going to be playing in the secondary. So he is going to remain at DE, at least for this coming season and that means he will probably have a similar role to what he had last year. I think that Wake probably has one or two more years of quality play left in him. So eventually Jordan should be able to step in and start opposite Vernon in a year or two. This will give him more time to learn the NFL and continue to bulk up in an attempt to be more effective against the run. Until his time comes to be a starter, he can continue to be inserted on defense in obvious passing situations, which appears to be what he is best suited for at this time.
I am with ya all the way. Vernon and Jordan are both among our best front 7 defenders and there needs to be a way to get them both in the starting lineup and also have their snaps totals reflect their standing among the front 7.
With the amount of nickel and sub-package snaps that Miami used with all 3 on the field - Wake, OV, and Jordan last year - I think that will mitigate Dion Jordan not being a "starter". I also think that if Dion Jordan improves, he'll see more snaps in base packages this year as well. Whether you want to believe it or not, Jordan improving remains to be seen at this point.
That being said, despite a high sack number, I don't think Olivier Vernon's play is insurmountable in as far as Dion Jordan leap-frogging him to become the "starter". The coaching staff may have a hard & fast opinion on that, but *IF* Dion Jordan does improve the way Kevin Coyle hinted at earlier in OTAs, then you've got to wonder at what point the swap occurs. Just my two cents.
Ok, let me present a scenario...Vern and Dion both elevate their game, Vern becomes a better player from last year, which looks to be the case because of his great work ethic, and Dion blows up.. Both players elevate their game, are we still gonna keep one of these freaks on the bench and trot out wheeler and Ellerbe..? Laugh with me J-dub..lol, cause that's the most ridiculous sh&$ I've ever heard..I would go down to headquarters and knock his *** out...right? What if they both play great, seriously?? Somebody please figure out something, real quick, or I'm gonna lose my sh&$...Ro, Pate, Alen, where you at? We must be prepared for the best. Case scenarios, and no one can tell me that one coming off the bench if their both ready to start is an option?... It's not, it's ground for firing.
Wow, I'm Trippin myself out, how did Coyle not prepare for Dion Jordan blowing up..he better have a scenario..
There was no reason these coaches should of said we want him at def end, and left it at that..if Dion Jordan flashes to all of us and show #3 talent, if Vern improves from last year, you simply better NOT have one come off the bench, so, if they both like their going to be improved players they better start getting outside backer reps, if your gonna platoon them then you platoon them with positions, not the f'n bench...
Just once I'd like a damn mic to stick in some of the coaches face.. Me...excuse mr. Coyle, yeah, can you tell us what your plan is for Dion Jordan and Olivier Vernon if indeed both players have stepped up their game and deserve the respect to start? Coyle...it cannot be, well, it's a good problem to have, it will provide great depth, and keep that unit fresh. I will start a storm that will rain upon thee.
Swap??? No, not if Vern's play gets better, he whipped Albert in underwear, he's bigger, stronger, faster than last year..there's a good chance he's going to be better, if Dion explodes like Coyle said then having them off the field makes o sense...0
If I'm a GM, and both my draft picks explode into the scene,and you coaches can't find a way to get them on the field at the same time, your basically telling me we don't know what to do with all this talent... If that's the case then I look to trade a player recoup a major resource and spend it on a completely different position, or I recommend firing someone.
Olivier Vernon's sack number is misleading. I think if you are able to look beyond that, there's certainly a lot of room for improvement. Let's see if he whips Albert once pads are on.
My point is, he was starter worthy last year, and has good odds to improve... If they both improve, Coyles gonna need to do somethin about it, bottom line Ro, can't have one comin off the bench and be capitalizing on the situation.
Lol, yea the more I think about it the more it bugs me in the way it bugs you. The staff drafted a freaky athlete at #3 overall, lined him up all over, he made noise as a blitzer, was an efficient pass rusher, covered people in space and down the field, spied the QB, and made several game-changing plays. And this staff isn't certain about how they're going to use him...like, really. Just get the guy on the damn field. I'd play him at LB more. Play him how Oregon played him, don't out-think yourself. Let him do everything, let him wreak havoc all over the front 7. Build a role for him that's like the one he had in college, the role that got him picked top 3. I just hate drafting this unbelievable athelete and then just sticking him on the line with his hand in the ground whenever he's on the field. It's not like our LBs are good anyway.
Seattle just won a Super Bowl behind a defense that brought in multiple pass-rushers off the bench. I think the defense can, and will, function in base packages with 2 of the 3 on the field. With the amount of sub-packages played anyway - I think even Coyle said in his introductory interview with the Finsiders it's 55%, pushing 60%, they're all going to be on the field a lot. We also know that they've been working on a package with Jordan, OV, Shelby, and Wake as the front 4. Racking your brain about the base package just seems unnecessary - especially without having seen just how much Dion Jordan has improved.
Maybe they are planning on using Jordan as an olb more, it would make sense with the Misi move to mike, though the weight gain would seem to fly in the face of that theory, wouldn't it?
If you take Philbin's interview from the OTAs at face value, yes. I think they're correct in their line of thinking that you can make Dion Jordan into a premier pass-rusher who can ALSO do multiple things. He just needs more development, but I think that he'll eventually overtake Olivier Vernon as an every-down player.
Yup. Don't overcomplicate things. He do-everything OLB and DE at Oregon and ended up getting drafted 3rd. Like...he's good at lots of things, just let him do it. I'm not sure him bulking up much more is a good idea, tbh. This kid is so unique, don't try to change or pigeonhole his game.
great post, exactly what me and folks like Clean have been saying, I've gone as far to say invent a new freakin position...but whatever, like we've said, we've seen the dude move beautifully from every angle and position, drop, pursue sideline to sideline, spy, rush, cover, best play he made last year was a middle linebacker on a draw.. I'm not gonna go all LOCO!!!! or anything, he just better figure this sh&$ out if he thinks Dion is going quote unquote " explode" You don't have exploding players comin off the bench know what I'm saying.
