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Some quotes from Philbin and Coyle worthy of discussion.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    That may all be true but having a QB that can bring you back from almost any deficit is a pretty big advantage for those coaches. There are two types of "franchise" QBs, ones that have the "comeback gene" and are never out of it and ones that melt under pressure. Russell Wilson has it. Ben Roethlisberger has it. Tom Brady has it. The entire Colts team stayed fired up playing their guts out even when down 20+ and personally I think that has more to do with Luck's ability at comebacks than anything the head coach has done.
     
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    We're going to change your name from phinsational to polemical.

    But I agree that in a way if Bill Lazor does install an out of this world offense it just puts us one step further in the direction of "Why is Joe Philbin here?"
     
  3. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Well I guess I am confused because you said Belichick has an intimidating stare which I guess was a preemptive strike against the strawman that hadn't happened yet?
     
  4. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is a spot on comment. We should pitch in and get Philbin a couple of coffee mugs and maybe some motivational posters with these things printed on them. I'd definitely pitch in; I want him to succeed, but the signs haven't been pointing in that direction, IMO.
     
  5. PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN

    PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN Well-Known Member

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    That would be a very stupid question, then.
     
  6. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    [​IMG]

    Well said.
     
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  7. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    In the scenario you describe, the answer to that question would be "taking credit for his coordinators".
     
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  8. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    1. Jesus Christ, he answered a question honestly. There are positives and negatives to a lot of confusing motion, any moron can see that. We're not going to use motion at every opportunity. We're not going to use playaction every passing play. We're not going to run read option on every play. Its the coaches job to figure out what the best balance is because there are pros and cons to virtually everything we do on offense.

    2. Did you forget about Jeff Ireland already? Hartline and Bess as our top 2 WRs in 2012? Jonathan Martin and Tyson Clabo? How about starting a raw rookie QB, a QB that has been terrible at end game management and mediocre at best at everything else, a QB that made some horrible decisions at the end of two games that very may have cost us 2 wins, a QB that has been inconsistent and and 2 of his worst performances as a pro with the playoffs on the line. Give us Russell Wilson instead of Ryan Tannehill and Philbin is probably at least 20-12 as a head coach, even with Jeff Ireland and Mike Sherman.

    Sometimes you can have the greatest plan in the world but it doesn't mean anything if there are resistant forces within.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Because he can control the locker room

    :pity:
     
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  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Give us Rex Ryan as coach and Miami is in the playoffs the last two seasons. Hell he got an 8-8 record with Geno "freaking" Smith.
     
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  11. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Rex Ryan would kick our a$$es if he had Ryan Tannehill instead of the garbage QBs they keep giving him.
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    :lol: Yeah but people will inevitably shorten it, and then before you know it I'll be the fan from Warsaw.

    I believe Nietzsche was a polemicist. :shifty:

    Definitely. That, and it'd be one step closer to Phibin being regarded as an offensive minded guy who can't create a successful one without a HOF caliber QB reading defenses like Bobby Fisher and dishing the ball around like Magic Johnson. Lazor succeeding where Philbin couldn't would put a stamp on it. Perhaps it'd be akin to Philbin needing a high-powered rifle and scope to go hunting while Lazor shows off true skill by using a bow and arrow.
     
  13. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    The guy that hired Tony Sparano is your champion? I'm going to go out on a limb and proclaim anybody that thinks its a good idea to hire Tony Sparano is probably a moron.
     
  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The guy who went to the AFC Championship with Marc 'buttfumble' Sanchez is my champion.
     
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  15. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    That is what a ground and pound philosophy will do for you, every once in a while, when you get on the good side of variance, it allows you to do things even with a mediocre QB. I think Ryan is a SB capable coach with the right QB, but you're being naive if you don't think he played a role in "buttfumbles" extension which has set his team back years and sent them into a downward spiral. And he's had a pretty terrible record since losing his hall of fame type player Revis.
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Still is a much better coach than Philbin.
     
  17. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    So then why didn't New England's morale drop to sh** in 2008 when Brady's knee went bye-bye and a backup took over who hadn't started a game since high school? Belichick's team still went 11-5 and scored 25.6 pts/game, 8th best in the league.
     
  18. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    If you aren't a supreme definition of excuse-maker I don't know who is. First you give them ad nauseam for Philbin's shortcomings thus far, you know- since we've experienced them the past 2 years under his rule. Secondly you use them to bash a head coach who actually HAS seen success, including back to back trips to the AFC Championship game. If you wanna rip Rex's tenure in NY, then you sure as hell need to be even more critical of Philbin's first two years in Miami. Anything less makes you a hypocrite and squanders credibility.
     
  19. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I didn't pay attention to every game they played, I know the team didn't look too great when we unveiled the wildcat on them though. If you want to go tit for tat look at the 2011 Colts without Manning. Bill Belichicks record his first 2 seasons as head coach: 13-19. Even worse than Philbin's 15-17, how do you explain that?
     
  20. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    No I don't have to be more critical and no it doesn't make me hypocritical because we have a hell of a lot more information on the guy thats been on the job for 5 years. One guy isn't trying to completely change the team philosophy and culture, which might take a little more time than some slight adjustments. One of them didn't have to work with Jeff Ireland either.

    Having said that I have them rated as about equals which is mediocre at worst, they both have the upside to be very good head coaches and I think they both can be SB capable coaches with the right QB. But neither is in the same elite category with Jim Harbaugh or a Don Shula and they likely never will be.

    The argument you're trying to make is because Ryan Tannehill didn't perform up to Russell Wilson's standards his first two seasons we should dump him now and move on. Its ****ing ridiculous. Sometimes people just develop at different paces but the end result can be just as sweet.
     
  21. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Here is a strawman for you: a lot of football fans are ****ing morons.

    Patriot fans still boo the team after a bad half. The team just keep coming back and winning most of those games over and over but they still get booed. How do you think those fans feel after the game? Like morons or do they think the booing lit a fire under their arses? Patriot fans still criticize Belichick when he makes a questionable decision and they lose the game. At what point does he and the team get the benefit of the doubt? With morons, probably never.

    Here are some posts from Seahawk fans discussing their head coach and QBs in Oct 2012, I think if you prove yourself to be a moron you should get a special moron tag or shouldn't be allowed to post opinions anymore. I mean how stupid must some of these guys feel now? (incidentally this was from a thread titled "four year plan" in his opening press conference their GM said they were working off a four year plan and four years later they are SB champs. But yeah, a two year plan for us was totally reasonable...)

    And to close I get the sense that some posters are going to use Lazor's success, if he is successful, as further evidence that Philbin is a bad coach, which would be ****ing MORONIC!! The team was trending up with or without Lazor. Philbin hired Lazor. Its still Philbin's philosophies, its still Philbin's team and Philbin played a big role in selecting and grooming Tannehill. Grooming a player, especially a raw player, is a process and you can't discount everything that's happened simply because we have a new guy. Tannehill was trending up and there is no way to say that trend wouldn't have continued regardless of who our OC is.

    If you "experts" are so sure about Philbin then put something on it. If your wrong vow to never give an opinion on football again. Or let me design a custom badge for you.
     
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  22. PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN

    PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN Well-Known Member

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    That's what I was getting at. Using Lazor's success against Philbin is stupid. If he's successful Philbin would have demonstrated quite the ability of surrounding himself with quality coaches. That's a plus. I think he's done so already. Lazor would just be another good decision should he pan out.
     
  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Philbin is a fish Jd, no other way to put it.

    "Cautious Coach Joe"

    Do think a Coach has a part in that sort of thing, the DefCord works with those players every week, some that falls on him and of course the guys out on the field.
     
  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    which is why people are using Philbin's own lack of success through 2 seasons against him, including his success or lack thereof with tapping into his players.
    Roy_Miami is defending Philbin with such fervor and conviction that it would make an outsider believe Philbin turned Miami into a model organization and took us to a Super Bowl and that the rest of us fans are irrationally arguing against such profound success, when in reality it's the other way around, because in reality Miami has been no better under Philbin to date than it was under Sparano.

    :huh: LOL. yeah, "demonstrating quite the ability" wouldn't include Mike Sherman and his other nepotistic hirings that wouldn't cut it on other teams. Our coaching staff as a whole has been mediocre through 2 years, far from Philbin surrounding himself with quality coaches and far from Lazor being "another good decision". Not to mention, Philbin speaking apprehensively about the new scheme doesn't exactly lend the impression that Lazor was Philbin's candidate of choice for the job. His hand seemed a little coerced to say the least. If Philbin had it his way, Sherman would still be here, so let's stop with the deification.
     
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  25. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    such a negative nancy you are!
     
  26. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You should go with the custom badge option, because you must be really new here if you're thinking it would be a good thing for a poster like CK to stop posting altogether for being wrong about something. Everybody has things they're right or wrong about from time to time, and frankly, Philbin hasn't done anything on any level that deserves such a vehement defense. At least Pete Carroll had USC. Philbin is a guy who may or may not have a job in 12 months. I hope he does, but no one should be called an idiot for doubting him at this point. Last year was a steaming pile on a lot of different levels.
     
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  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Philbin hired Lazor, if Lazor is good, Philbin gets credit for having the vision to find and aquire the guy..I don't see how that's debated, we know he had the power to hire who he wanted to..he must of looked deep into the candidates and knew something about this Lazor guy, if he changes the whole dynamics with slightly above average set Of skillset players, I'm gonna have to give props to Philbin.
     
  28. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I wish I didn't have to, I wish I could just continue with my wait and see approach on Philbin but apparently I've been pigeon holed into a "defender." IMO its too early to call it on both Philbin and Tannehill and right now I would have to give them both a mediocre at worst rating, both have a lot of potential but both will probably looked at as mediocre when its all said and done. Every argument you make against Philbin can be just as easily applied to Tannehill. I certainly wouldn't be labeled a Tannehill defender but if several posters tried to claim they "know" beyond the shadow of a doubt he'll never win anything I would probably become one.

    There are a lot of things I do like about Philbin however. He's obviously very intelligent, he's definitely football intelligent but I would guess he has a genius level IQ beyond just football. When he has a decision between the conservative choice and the aggressive choice he almost always goes aggressive. Love that. Innovative outside the box thinking. And I actually have some statistical evidence that shows he could be an elite coach even now despite the record, though the sample size is too small to draw conclusions. And no I will not elaborate on any of these observations, I've learned from many years of playing poker that its fruitless to get into a "strategy" debate with a fish.

    And on top of all that if he had his way we would have made the Albert trade last year and most likely would have gone to the playoffs, which means we (hopefully) wouldn't even be having this discussion. The fact is our personnel guy was actually dragging Philbin down instead of helping him.
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you bring interesting points to the table..And I don't think Phinsational would disagree with anything your talking about here, we'll see his response.
     
  30. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned a stat I have from a project I'm working on, its incomplete and the sample size is small for coaches only having a few seasons under their belt so I'm not going to go into detail at this point but here's a nugget:

    Top 3 coaches:
    1. Jim Harbaugh
    2. Bill Belichick
    3. Joe Philbin

    Worst 3 coaches:
    1. Jeff Fisher (Rams)
    2. Jason Garrett
    3. Mike Shanahan (Redskins)

    And for a little more clarity Tony Sparano was 4th worst and Jim Schwartz was 5th worst.
     
  31. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You have Philbin #3?
     
  32. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And yet here you are ranking head coaches. And Philbin is #3. Lol. If you paid attention you'd see the Pats came back and beat us, scoring 48 on us.
     
  33. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    To be clear this is not a ranking based on subjective opinion, I have a formula, I put data into the formula and according to the results Philbin is number 3. I was suprised Fisher was rated the worst, but then I don't pay attention to that boring *** team. None of the other results were suprising in the least though, except obviously Philbin was way higher than even I expected. Subjectively, I thought Jim Harbaugh and Bill Belichick would be at the top and Jason Garrett and Tony Sparano would be at the bottom and the data backs that up, which proves I'm at least on the right track in developing my "coaches rating" system.

    If you're a betting man I would bet everything I could afford to lose on the under for the Rams, that bet is as close to free money as you're ever going to see. The under on the Cowboys is pretty safe. According to my data a few coaches in a downward spiral are Mike Tomlin and Mike Smith, though they are tough bets because of the QBs.

    And I wouldn't bet against Philbin with a QB poised to break out, at worst Tannehill will be at least mediocre which means we'll probably win at least 8.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    share with us dude, unless you don't want to, that's cool..I enjoy some reasonable hope.
     
  35. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Jeff Fisher has established a mediocre record over a long, mediocre career, and the Rams are in the toughest division in the NFL.

    The Cowboys have gone 8-8 or worse for four consecutive years.

    It's almost as if a moron could bet the under on these two teams and be safe, but I'm happy to have objective science on my side...
     
  36. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In the AFC East, I'd say that's accurate.
     
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  37. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That "quote" from a player isn't really a quote and we don't know how much it was editorialized by the writer of the tweet. But let contrast it with some quotes from Bill Lazor:

    We all know Philbin has a stoic personality and maybe that isn't what some players are used to but if you are a professional athlete and you need a coach to get you pumped up for the the game, then you will never rise to greatness.
     
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  38. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    The bottom line is every single coach in the league has flaws when they aren't winning, even Jim Harbaugh's fiery passion would turn into incessant whining if he has a losing record right now. Philbin understands this, that is why he was so adamant about upgrading the LT position last offseason. I believe Ireland took an educated gamble, he had just been extended, he knew our second year QB probably wasn't ready to compete just yet so he wanted to save our resources to wait and see what we had in Jonathan Martin and others for another year while Tannehill grew. He wanted to go into Tannehill's all important third season with the ability to laser focus our resources where they were needed to make a run.

    It was a god awful plan in hindsight but the good news for us is there was a little merit to it and if Philbin hasn't already lost them our team really is poised to make a huge leap this season, thanks in part to Ireland's idiocy. As opposed to the way a lot of coaches build their team our team has been constructed as if we already have an elite QB at the helm. Others build the team around the QB so they can slowly grow together, we, on the other hand, are taking a sink or swim approach. Our team is poised to go exactly as far as Tannehill can take us right now, if he's able to take a step up to even Dalton's level we should win a lot of games this season. If Tannehill remains mediocre then Philbin might as well pack his bags. And that's how it should be.

    Personally, I think we're as close to winning the Super Bowl as we have been for a long time. I still can't make up my mind on Tannehill, I think he has it in him to break a lot of Marino's records but can he grit out some of those tough wins against elite QBs or when he's having an off day? That is the question that remains to be answered.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They editorialized the fact Coyle was showing the players Seattle film to drum up emotion, I'm sure.
     
  40. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    Cognitive Bias. You cannot be blind to your own bias.
     

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