Shannon Sharpe: The Dolphins were cowards, Philbin should be suspended

You understand that you're not supposed to compare apples to oranges right.

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Really? I know people that would flip out over being taped up like that. Merinthophobia or even a form of claustrophobia. it's never a problem unless you do it to the wrong person is it.

 

Did they tie him to the goalpost 20 times?

 

I would find that just as bad.

 

Does it matter if I call you ***** more than ones?

The point is it only takes once. Seriously dude, are you saying that it is only bad if it happens multiple times?

 

In the end the point is: this is about the team WE all root for. Some for a few years, others for many more. I'm not concerned with what happens in Baltimore, Denver, Detroit, wherever. I'm concerned with what happens in Miami. And the franchise from top to bottom looks absolutely ridiculous. I don't know what's more concerning: that the locker room knew this was happening and leaders like Wake and Long (Martin's rookie year) did nothing or there's such a disconnect and acceptance of said behaviors that no one thought anything of it.

 

I would flip out too but not in that way, and before they did it I would ask for a different treatment if I had claustrophobia, so Nah, that's not the same as verbally demeaning someone over and over, and crossing those lines, then not seeing the signs of hurt, and continuing the process..

The guy was hurtin, he blatantly came out and said, " I cant wait for you all to demean me again"

 

The other problem is this: if these guys spent half the time playing good football and actually being able to block as they spent clubbing and banging hookers and going out to eat and going to bars and generally being *******s to fellow team mates, they'd have been fine. Love that Cogs, Pouncey and Jerry have all the time in the world to bust balls, but yet when it comes time to actually do their job, they fail. That line was an abomination and it's a slap in the face that these guys suck so bad, yet are such paper tigers. The more I read and the more I think about this, screw them all. If the culture really is to be changed, heads must roll and people must be cut. You really want Pouncey in that locker room with new, young players coming in there? And don't sell me on the fact that he's indispensable because he's not. And please don't read into this as I'm some Martin supporter because I'm not. I have no idea what it's like in his head. I only know he sucks as a lineman. Just like the rest of the bag of crap that was paid to "block" this year.

 

Seems like in the rush to protect Martin from bullying, no one is taking into account that he was playing badly. If he had been playing up to his draft status, maybe even people as dumb as these three meatheads wouldn't have seized the opportunity to harass him. Not that the kind of abuse they were piling on him would motivate anyone to play better; it would probably have the opposite effect. But the whole fiasco had its genesis in Martin not playing up to expectations, and may be at least part of the reason why no one intervened (rather than cowardice).

 

Does Belichick deserve blame for Hernandez? He drafted him knowing full well all the giant red flags he had. He was coach while he continued to run guns and murder people. Head coach deserves blame, right?

The only people that knew exactly what Martin was feeling were his parents. They did not tell anyone that could fix things in the Dolphins organization. Why did Martin's father hide it from Philbin when they met? How is Philbin supposed to help someone when that someone is hiding the problem from him? Further more, Martin's parents did know what was going on and they did less to help him than Philbin did, why is no one blaming them for anything?

I'm fairly certain if we had won those last 2 games, there'd be a different narrative going on with this event from the fans here. Which is sad, because our W-L record doesn't change the facts of this case.

 

and when GOOOOOOSE said that "rookies have to pay..." and Shannon Sharpe cheer leaded him on.

 

Don't forget the Todd Heap wife comments. Circa hard knocks 2001.

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I seem to recall the week Pouncey was out injured, the offensive line looked pretty good. Just saying.

 

The guy is good, but he's way overrated.

 

Why do I suspect that once again, quotes are being twisted out of context, in an effort to broaden the scope and magnitude of this?

Garner could have simply been one who felt a measurable degree of compassion for Martin. As one who apparently managed to endure worse treatment and move forward, he also found empathy with Martin's inability to.
Perhaps rather than diminish a fellow lineman's dignity any further, Garner chose to lessen his. In speaking well of Cognito, and adding Martin's departure was inappropriate, he seems to have taken his experience in stride.

 

Whether Shannon Sharpe is a hypocrite or not for being the one to bring up this point is irrelevant because I truly believe his point is valid.

I absolutely think there were people in that locker room that saw what was going on and didn't stop it because, "Whatever, it's not me. If it were me I'd beat some ***."

You'll notice that Ted Wells was very careful and explicit in looking for evidence that the players knew they had gone too far. I think he did demonstrate that. I think he demonstrated that it wasn't just the same treatment they gave to everyone, that they knew they were giving it much harder to Jonathan Martin, Nate Garner, Josh Samuda and Andrew McDonald than they were to other people. They knew they were giving it hardest to Nate Garner. And they even knew they were going too far.

The text conversation between Incognito and Jake Long about Garner looking like he's about to cry every day and he thinks he's going to bring guns in and kill everyone...proves this. And that was just one piece of evidence proving it. There's also the fact that a multitude of players thought Garner was actually getting it harder than Martin, and that entry in the fine book which fined Garner for not being the first to crack.

These people knew they were targeting some individuals more than others and they knew it was having an affect on those individuals' mental state, and they didn't stop. And other people knew these players were getting it hard and none of them stopped it because they didn't care. They were cowards, IMO.

 

Sharpe is also wildly uninformed on the entire case...so IMO that alone disqualifies him from any "valued opinion"

 

Blind squirrel comes across a nut every now and then. The point is valid and I don't particularly care who brought it up.

 

Why are we complaining about a coach who has to pay attention to 53 players and all his staff for not picking up on a problem that was purposely hid from him, but we don't blame the parents who actually knew of the problem but also helped keep the coach in the dark and did nothing?

 

I don't know for sure, but apparently Martin's dad approached Philbin regarding his child at one point.

 

I'm not sure how there is a mischaracterization of events here. The facts are widely agreed upon. There is really nothing being disputed at this point.

The argument from other players is that the harassment was A. common and B. didn't bother them. Those points are irrelevant. Whether MacDonald was able to deal with how he was treated or whether players like Turner really has no bearing on the actions that occurred.

 

Because this isn't a Martin Family Forum???

 

He did approach him and told him some of Martin's issues. He did not tell him about the "bullying". Philbin immediately met with Martin and after that set him up with a psychiatrist.

Philbin was not negligent. Martin's parents were.

 

You can certainly do better than that.

 

I don't think anyone here cares if the Martin family are good parents or not.

 

Why not??? That is precisely the problem here.

 

Because its common for someone who feels bullied to not tell anyone in charge.

 

Please stop. This is a wholly ridiculous path to travel down.

 

That doesn't answer the question. Why did Jon Martin not tell Joe Philbin? Did he fear retaliation from those he would accuse? Did he fear he would be ignored? There are reasons why the bullied don't report it, and you've inherently assigned those reasons to the environment created by Joe Philbin.

 

You are the one who brought up his family. I don't disagree that his parents failed him, but I'm not sure how its relevant to the actions of any Miami Dolphins.

 

It does answer the question. Martin felt bullied even though no one had any intent to harm him. That means his fears were his and born of his own issues, NOT because Philbin is derelict in his duties. In fact, considering football culture and standard practices of toughening up soft players, it could be argued, Philbin failed Martin by sending him to shrink instead of ordering a code red.

According to you, his parents failing him have nothing to do with why this whole situation imploded...BUT you agree they should have told Philbin? There is no way you aren't being purposely obtuse on this.

 

Philbin's duty was to make Jonathan Martin the best football player he could possibly be. By any measure he failed at that.

Martin's fears were born from his own issues, and from his teammates harassing him. Joe Philbin was in a position of power. It was his duty to create an environment where he is aware of harassment.

When did I say his parents failing him had nothing to do with the situation??? There are plenty of people who played a role. Incognito, Turner, Jerry, and Pouncey harassed a teammate to the point of him quitting. Martin's family didn't help him the way they should have. Joe Philbin created an environment where Incognito, Pouncey, et al were empowered, and failed to create an environment where Martin was comfortable coming to him. A lot of people to blame, and Joe Philbin is one of them.

 

Wait what? That's horse****. You're pretending that Martin could be better than he was. You don't know that at all, unless its your contention that anyone can be coached to be excellent LTs.

This is annoying. Just like the above, you're pretending like there's these perfect scenarios where anything is possible. Its ridiculous to act like there's a perfect environment that exists where Martin with all of his issues would go against the normal symptoms of being bullied and tell someone in charge. Martin likely knew there was no way to stop the treatment without effing everything up. He didn't tell Philbin because he knew Philbin would do something about it and for someone who is bullied they fear things could get worse. What you want Philbin to do is create something never before seen in pro football. That's absurd.

Ok good. His parents do have something to do with situation, therefore its ok to discuss them here. Thank you for agreeing finally.

 

Yes, I believe Jon Martin would have been better had he not been under constant harassment. I think had the team done more to build up his self-esteem, rather than tear it down, he would have performed better.

"He didn't tell Philbin because he knew Philbin would..." pretty much sums everything up well. Jon Martin had no faith to handle the situation without making it worse.

You're characterization of the potential remedies pretty much illustrates the problem here. There absolutely were ways that Philbin could have stopped the harassment of Martin in an effective manner.

 

Again, this isn't a team problem but an NFL one. This is a league where you have players fight other players to toughen them up.

Its very likely the only thing Martin would have felt comfortable with is Philbin getting rid of Cogs. Philbin did not have the power to do that. That is not Philbin's fault.

I'm sure Philbin could have stopped the harassment as well....too bad Martin and Martin's parents hid form Philbin the fact that martin felt harassed and never gave Philbin the chance....

 

Thats great, and I'm sure it works with certain types of players. I'm sure it would backfire with other types of players. Its the organization's duty to identify which methods work for who and implement accordingly, so they can maximize the potential of their players. Instead, it looks like the Dolphins just let the lockerroom work itself out, regardless of how it damaged someone's psyche.

Or maybe just have Incognito stop insulting him?

Agreed. Too bad Jon Martin never had enough confidence in Joe Philbin resolving the issue to go to him.

 

I actually do not think he would have been better. I think he would have found something else to make him feel bad. He would then blame that new something else for his bad play.

not to excuse the harassment, however I do believe Martin is responsible for his own struggles.

 

And that right there is the crux of the issue. Let's not focus on the real issue, let's jump ahead to early adulthood and blame the surroundings for the issue. Do we need to be concerned about what is going on inside the building? Absolutely, but let's not white hot spot light on a point in a timeline that is literally years after the issues became present and make that a soapbox point to make your stand. No one is saying that the treatment of some players and even staff is appalling and needs to be glossed over because it needs to be addressed but frankly this is more a league wide issue and not a Miami specific issue.

It has been noted that Martin has had issues since before his entry into the NFL and now when it becomes more than he can handle it is somehow only Philbins problem? that's a very myopic and narrow minded approach and very convenient for those of us that want a clean sweep of the organization, easy to make the soapbox stand and proclaim how horrible things are and that anyone that can't see this is somehow less than and beneath them, proclaiming the ignorance of such posters that have the audacity to oppose their clearly superior point of view. ironically creating a hostile environment that once fostered healthy debate and discussions.

Has anyone noticed the lack of input from active players and organizations on this matter? although I can't be absolutely sure on this as I have no concrete proof but I'm pretty sure that there are 31 other teams that are holding their collective breath waiting for this thing to die down, no one wants to draw attention to themselves and possibly have investigators look behind their doors. In my opinion the issues being focused on so narrowly are not exclusive to the Miami Dolphins

We all have our own personal experiences, thoughts and beliefs on the issues but that is what the format of a discussion board is all about. you don't have to agree with my thoughts and beliefs and that is ok, it makes for great discussions and arguments when multiple points of view come into play, but when one point of view becomes predominate and insults are directed at posters that hold a different view or even when new threads are created and before anyone can even make a post possible opposition is blasted and even give a derogatory label, well, in my opinion that is no better than the current topic of debate. it is personal and not topical and just becomes an opportunity for some to impose their views self righteously. that makes this environment less than desirable to participate.

 

There are a lot of people to blame, for sure. However, Philbin is the head coach, and he's in charge of the locker room. If he allows it to drift like a rudderless boat, it doesn't make it better that he's following in the footsteps of, wait for it...

Other great leaders of men such as Cam Cameron and Tony Sparano (I went back to 2007, because I'm not assuming anybody started a tradition with Garner).

Yes, I'm certainly thankful that Philbin has the same measure of control over the locker room as those two guys. The job was too big for each of them, in the end. Maybe someone wants to argue that teams are lining up to bring those guys in as head coaches?

Ireland sucked. That doesn't make Philbin any less clueless. Cameron and Sparano sucked. What has Philbin done to prove he is any different?