McKinnie arrived a week before Martin left. You apparently did not listen to BMac on Sports Bang, so here it is. The point I made before was that BMac had nothing to do with the negative culture that permeated around the OL. Clabo really didn't either. Had he been on the team the entire season, BMac would have put a stop to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uw283sDMfk Final OL overall grades: Jerry -2.9 Clabo -0.8 Pouncey 7.1 McKinnie -8.9 Garner -7.7 Brenner -9.5 Incognito 6.8 Martin -6.9 Incognito made the Pro Bowl in 2012 and the "chaos" started from training camp in 2012. I don't know what that has to do with anything though.
Lemme guess, I insulted you this time too, didn't I? My point is not full of hot air. Shula DID NOT have control of the locker room. He didn't have control over Jake Scott. You are simply wrong.
You're not capable of insulting me in any meaningful way and your point is absurd, born of ignorance.
Blah, blah, blah, bull ****, bull ****, bull ****. If Shula had no control over Jake Scott then he didn't have control over the locker room. You can't have one guy doing whatever the hell he wanted plus openly disregarding your rules plus be a leader on the field and say you have control of the locker room. That is not ignorance, that is simple common sense. What's ignorant is pretending things didn't happen because they won a lot of games. It must be nice to have pliable morals and a malleable take on history. Yes, you're very tough no one can insult you. Yawn. The point I was making is that, per usual, you started the insulting and are going to pretend you were persecuted. I just wanted to call attention to it this time.
Typical Jim, no substance. The best posts you make are when you make threads for news you copied and pasted. Why is what I'm saying wrong? Just because it is!!!!!! No. The problem is I'm right, you don't want me to be so you do the only thing you can, feebly lash out.
You're making ignorant, sweeping claims about Shula and his ability to control a locker room using faulty grade school caliber logic with nothing to back it up. All evidence that I've come across, having grown up in south Florida, lived here most of my life and followed the Dolphins for multiple decades, is that Don Shula thoroughly controlled his teams' locker rooms in Miami and was a stand up head coach in that regard. As usual, any discussion with you is an idiotic waste of time best cut short.
Jake Scott was a superbowl MVP. I'm pretty sure he was playing his assigned role in the Defense when he managed that feat, not freelancing around doing whatever he wanted. Ipso facto Don managed to control him.
Saying you have evidence is not substance. The article you posted (that we've all read) clearly explained that Shula had no control over Scott. It also clearly explains that the other players looked up to Scott. I ask you again, how can you have a team leader doing ANYTHING he wants and still say Shula had control of the locker room...unless you have no effing clue what "controlling a locker room" means? None of that is making anything up by the way. What is happening is that you are equating wins to all this stuff you think happened. Living in S.FL doesn't give you special incite btw.
The article did not clearly explain that Shula had no control over Jake Scott. That derived conclusion is a result of your brain working "not so good". Jake Scott snapping at Shula on the practice field does not equate to Shula having no control over him. Not in the real world anyway, as opposed to the bubble of non reality that you're apparently floating in. It's kind of amazing that you'll bend over backwards to defend and excuse Philbin at just about any chance you get, but you'll take a snippet of Scott talking back to Shula and arrive at the sweeping and moronic conclusion that because of that incident Shula had no control over Scott and therefore no control of the locker room. Brilliant. By the same logic, given the acknowledged facts of what happened last year, Philbin not only had no control of the locker room, it was in fact a three ring circus. That's how faulty, ignorant logic works and moronic conclusions are drawn. Try again next time and see if you can actually make some sense.
Shula knew WTF was going on with his team. The '72s still talk, 40 years later, about the ONE time they got something over on him. Than again, he might just be upset they went to Prime 112 rather than Shula's.
Wait... Are you serious? You're never serious. WTF IS HAPPENING!??!!!??! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Sure it did, maybe the problem is your ability to read. This article clearly explains that NO ONE had control over Jake Scott. Among other things. Who is bending over backwards here to defend Philbin? Logic defends Philbin. Its this stupid made up bull **** people like yourself keep peddling that is a reach. You guys actually expect Philbin to read Martin's mind for crying out loud.
So now you're equating Scott not going to an off season banquet with Shula not having control over the locker room? Wow. And as to Philbin, the situation was so bad with Martin that his father contacted Philbin directly to describe it in detail and to make sure that Philbin had control over the situation in the coming year. Far cry from Philbin having to read Martin's mind and he failed-badly- to handle the situation or even monitor it. He whiffed. See to it that in the next thread that you participate in you actually make some sense.
Dear god, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Martin's dad and martin never told Philbin that Martin was having problems with team mates, just that he was having problems in general. You'd think you could at least get basic facts straight before you start going off calling me ignorant. And yes, willingly and openly disobeying your coach and screaming in his face means precisely that Shula did not control Scott.
well yes it is. in Shula's days there wasn't all this instant access to the team via the media and twitter and such. the one thing he objected to was the vets making the rooks pay for a night out. unless he tags along there is no way he can prevent that from happening it is something done on their own time. he would essentially HAVE to babysit. not to mention we have no idea if things like that happened or not. to blame this on Philbin is absurd. to place Shula upon high as if he could never do wrong is equally absurd. this is about one player and his inability to deal with the stress and pressure of the animal that is the NFL.
No. Just the former and current jets. And its really hard to pay attention to what your saying over that butt.
Not absolute control. Absolute awareness. Ill paraphrase a story from a book called "Always on the run" By kiick and csonka. At the hotel before the game shula gave the late night bell hop/elevator guy a football to have every player who got in after curfew autograph. He stood up in front of the team in the morning meeting tossing the football from hand to hand and everyone who signed the ball knew they were busted." Nobody expects absolute control. But paying attention perhaps even being a little nosey would be good.
And you still can't refute what I said with anything more meaningful or specific than "no, you're dumb". The statement was that Shula controlled the locker room. I say Shula did not control Scott. I've supported that with evidence. You've countered with the fact you lived in south FL and insults.....how does that make me the idiot? Hell, you still lack the testicular fortitude to admit that you were wrong about what Martin and his dad told Philbin.
And yet those guys still did things wrong and what they wanted...on a constant basis. I'm sure Philbin knew who was and wasn't in by curfew as well. I'm going to explain this again, Martin hid how he truly felt. That means he told no one on the team and pretended to be ok with that stuff....and its stuff that happens in every locker room. He actively did everything he could to give people the impression that not only was he ok, but he enjoyed it. We are supposed to be mad at Philbin for not reading Martin's mind and taking action, even though it was contrary to what he's seen in every locker room and from Martin laughing it up and participating? The issues that Philbin was aware of (the ones not purposely hidden from everyone by Martin) he took action and got Martin help.
Your logic skills are just abysmal. Scott mouthed off to Shula at practice. Scott refused to go to a post season banquet and got fined by Shula. Therefore those two examples prove that Shula couldn't control Scott. Therefore Shula couldn't control his locker room. Seriously dude, that is just pathetic, I would expect better from a third grader trying to make the same point. As to Martin's father, the Wells report indicates that he spoke with Philbin. We also know from released messages that Martin told his father and mother details of the bullying before Martin's father spoke with Philbin about the situation. Philbin promised to keep an eye out for Martin- what did he actually do before the whole situation blew up? NOTHING. The Wells report indicates that Martin's father didn't mention the bullying to Philbin, but is there any indication that Philbin asked the other coaches or staff to keep an eye out for Martin and see what was going on? Did Philbin have anyone pay particular attention to what was happening in the locker room? Did anyone pay close enough attention to see any of the bullying there, or maybe even on the field when some of the other OL were simulating intercourse with Martin? Not from what I can tell. No one was expecting perfection from Philbin when it came to this issue, but by all accounts he didn't do a damn thing. Not only is he a weak leader, he blew off and showed no interest in the leadership council that Jake Long stressed importance in- and after Jake left if Incognito was one of the controlling forces on the OL in the locker room with a troubled Martin under that influence, shame on Philbin for whiffing so badly on the whole issue. A better and more experienced head coach would most likely have taken preventative steps so that this horrendous, embarrassing situation never spiraled out of control. A better coach would have made sure to understand the dynamics of that locker room. But you'd rather pull out of your rear some weak argument of how Shula didn't have control over his locker room- I'm not sure which is the bigger joke, your conclusion or the examples that you tried to use to make that lame argument. Again, you have no idea what you're talking about, especially when it comes to Shula- you making sweeping statements, have no evidence of any merit to back it up, then pick two lame examples from an article that I provided to basically slander Shula. To even compare Shula to Philbin is a joke- to slam Shula and claim that he had no control over his locker room through faulty and juvenile logic is just pathetic and shows that you know very little about the subject or what it was like down here under Shula.
You just keep repeating the same thing over and over and over. How about you explain why mouthing off to Shula and missing team functions and refusing to play equals Shula having control over Scott. Do you understand the definition of control? WTF are you talking about? Philbin met with Martin and set him up with a therapist. That's not nothing. You think if Shula was told his player was depressed he would have sent him to therapy or he would have had other players "toughen him up"? Again you are coming from the standpoint that bullying was obviously happening. It wasn't. While everything Martin is complaining about was happening he was laughing and carrying on like it was no big deal. No one would know he was being bullied. If person X says something "mean" to person Y and person Y laughs it off and then turns around and gives it right back to person X who also laughs it off, then they go out drinking together....why in hell would you think person Y was just bullied? You act like martin was walking around the locker room and practice field with a dark cloud over his head crying all the time where everyone can see. He wasn't. He was hiding how he felt. Shula wouldn't have picked up on it, Lombardi wouldn't have picked up on it, no one football coach would have known what was really wrong with Martin. Just because you've decided to decree that Philbin should, doesn't mean it was possible. Says the guy that doesn't know the definition of the word control, had no idea Martin's camp hid the bullying from everyone on the team, had no idea Philbin got martin counseling, and thinks a "real" coach could read a person's thoughts........ I'm saying no NFL coach has the control over the locker room like you guys are pretending. These football players are grown *** rich alpha males. You guys are pretending like a HC in the pros are these mythical creatures that control their players' behavior on a constant basis. That is a myth. Few coaches understood psyche like Jimmy Johnson did and he still couldn't even "control" his locker room the way you guys think a coach is supposed to. Shula had respect in his locker room, but he didn't have control. No coach does in the pros, especially not in the way people in here are suggesting.
There's nothing else to say about your inferential leaps as per Shula and Scott- your logic is like saying that if a son refused to eat his vegetables at dinner one night that proves that the father has no control over his son. Your point is equally as ridiculous. Philbin didn't do nearly enough to monitor what was going on in the locker room. The result was one of the most embarrassing and shameful chapters in the history of the NFL that turned the Dolphins into an international joke. I can disagree with your defense of Philbin but at least understand your point of view. Your comments as to Shula on the other hand, what I originally commented on in the first place- are just riddled with half baked logic and denegrate what he did down here. Saying that Shula couldn't control Scott because he mouthed off to him and he didn't go to a banquet, therefore Shula couldn't control Scott or the locker room, is not only ignorant, it's a little bizarre. You're trying to paint a picture based on a couple of extreme, isolated incidents and failing miserably at doing so. It's as ignorant as saying that if a student Scored 99% on an exam, he didn't know the material because he got an answer wrong. What is more telling, the 99% that he got right or the 1% that he got wrong? I would venture to say that most thinking human beings would agree that the 99% that he got right is the far more relevant factor of the two.
Yeah, cause kids that don't eat their vegetables are fined $5000 then traded to another family. I'm saying the level of control you guys think a coach has over a locker room is a myth, regardless of who that coach is. No coach has the control to alter a grown alpha millionaire's behavior. The behavior that everyone is so aghast over is commonplace not just in locker rooms but many places, like say your average restaurant. The problems exist when a person not cut out for the atmosphere gets into the atmosphere. If Martin didn't have a problem with all of that, then Philbin would have lost the team by squashing that camaraderie. If Martin had let Philbin know what the problem actually was and Philbin did nothing, you'd have a point. But Martin didn't, so you don't. Everyone wants to point to Hardknocks for all these perceived negative qualities from philbin, but there was an incident that shows EXACTLY what happens when a HC does what you guys want. Chad Johnson turns a PC into cursing side show. It was silly and "unprofessional". Philbin pulls CJ aside, and explains to him what he did wrong and why it was wrong, like a man. CJ then goes on to make a mockery of that conversation by attempting to over correct to the point of absurdity at the next PC basically ****ting on the lesson Philbin gave him. After that he gets arrested and bounced form the team, from there the players are so upset that they form a leadership council to confront Philbin about him justifiably getting rid fo CJ for being exactly the kind of embarrassment Cogs was. Here was Philbin trying to teach then getting tough, and these alpha males who hit people for a living, basically pushed back. You really think that after EVERY PLAYER came out in support of Cogs, something even worse would have happened if Philbin had ended that stuff?
Not only are you ignorant: “Shula had zero control over Jake Scott. Jake Scott did exactly whatever it was Jake Scott wanted to do.” Talk about meaningless exaggeration... But you're a hypoctite as well: Blah, blah, blah, bull ****, bull ****, bull ****. * (page 3 from this thread, courtesy of... FinD) This conversation started in response to your moronic claim that Shula had "zero" control over Jake Scott, one of the most free spirited, stubborn and independent NFL football players ever, and then inferring from that half witted fallacy that Shula had no control over his locker room. That's just ignorant. And if the shoe fits... well, in your case you'd probably try to put the shoe on your head.
Fining a guy and then trading him is an example that demonstrates control over a situation, doesn't it? If Philbin would have fined and traded Incognito (or even Martin) before this event, who would be on here saying he didn't have control over the locker room? I don't understand...
Don't try to understand, the half witted logic used in his argument doesn't warrant the effort. It's like listening to this below and trying to make sense out of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhEQ1E8XPp4
Philbin couldn't trade/cut or bring in any players. He did not have the authority. If he had, Cogs would have been gone after the golf incident and Martin would be at most a back up.
Yes, I said that, i then went on to explain my point with more evidence. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but attack from me the get go.
If Philbin can't say "I will not work with this guy anymore," then something is wrong with the structure of the organization. I understand your point there. I don't understand the Shula example, because it's the control I, personally, would have liked to have seen from Philbin this year.
Dude, you have no evidence as per Shula and Scott other than a couple of snippets from an article that I provided. The problem is that you somehow derive from this, your only "evidence", that Shula had "zero" control over Jake Scott. That's just ridiculous, but even more ridiculous is taking extreme examples from an extreme player and making a blanket statement that Shula had no control over his locker room. Input stupid, output stupid, that basically describes your "evidence" and conclusions. Jake Scott was a unique handful back in the day. Shula got rid of him. For you to say that Shula had "zero" control over Scott and no control over the locker room is like failing miserably trying to pass off a faulty logical progression as fact. You proved nothing except for the obvious limitations of your intellect.
The power structure was fine, it was Ireland that was the problem. There's been numerous reports that Philbin wanted a better LT than Martin and he wanted Cogs gone after the golf incident. Ireland refused. My point about Shula is the same with all pro HCs, and that's this specific idea we have of control doesn't exist. The players are alpha males who are at the top of their profession, the coach doesn't control them he herds them at best. People are acting like bad things never happened under Shula's watch because he had this mythical control, and its simply not true. Guys screwed up and misbehaved all the time. Dear god, the stories of guys like Kiik and Csonka misbehaving are legendary. Jake Scott openly defied Shula to his face in front of teammates numerous times before he was traded away (you'll also notice the team started to decline around that time too). There were consequences, but that's not the same thing as control and prevention, which is what people are acting like Shula achieved. Shula had respect in the locker room because his strategies were excellent but that was the extent of it.
The evidence you provided, was 'i lived in south FL" so piss off. Again, none of those guys were choir boys. If Shula had the type of control you're pretending he had, nothing negative would have ever happened. But the missed curfews, open defiance to his face, refusals to play, drunken debauchery, fights, drug use, etc. shows that he didn't have the iron fist on that locker room like you're pretending he did. Please tell me I'm stupid again in your next post and not deal with anything I said, just give me vague speculation and more insults.....that way your streak of bull **** is alive and well.
not sure what part of does not have that authority that is confusing you here? it has been noted that Philbin wanted Cogs gone after the Golf incident and that he felt martin was not an NFL player. Ireland was the authority that did not take Philbin's request and replace these guys... Shula could not control the "free spirit" that is Jake Scott and traded him. so I guess in that manner he did "control" the situation, but he certainly did not control the player
