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Former Bears GM Jerry Angelo ranks every NFL QB

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Serpico Jones, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Basically if you're going to rank Ryan Tannehill anywhere from 17th to 26th in this league I am going to agree with you and not particularly care whether it's 17th, 21st or 26th.

    But I do as I said before take exception to ranking Kyle Orton above him. That one is puzzling until you consider that Jerry Angelo drafted Kyle Orton in Chicago and Angelo is just partial toward him for that reason alone.

    He also has Michael Vick too low, IMO.

    Josh McCown is a wildcard. He absolutely played better than Ryan Tannehill in 2013 but it was like his first NFL action since god knows when. Just a very confusing blip on the radar screen.
     
  2. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I have no problem with your logic. However Angelo is clearly ranking the QBs based on production this season, yet he has QBs who had considerably worse statistical seasons than Tannehill ranked way ahead. IMO using this season's production as a barometer, Tannehill should be around the 7s in the scale, around Dalton and Stafford.

    His scale and rating system becomes suspect when he ranks Tannehill so low despite others with similar or worse stats ranking way higher.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't think it's clear whether he's ranking based on production this season or if he's taking other things into consideration.
     
  4. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Many people have. Many have suggested he was our Team MVP. If you're not one of them, that's fine. It was a general post to those that have written that.

    That's fine if you think that.

    I think he was just as much to blame as he was to credit, which in my mind is inconsistent. That's my issue with him. He may have room to grow, I just question whether he will develop into the very high ceiling he has.
     
  5. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    The titles says "Former Bears GM Jerry Angelo ranks every QB from the 2013 NFL season"

    Then he's got brackets labeled:

    - Played at a high level. Was one of the reasons - but not the reason - for his team's success.... but not elite.
    - Talented, has a good history, but had a subpar year.....


    He may very well be taking past history into account, however he seems to be clearly basing his ranking on play during the 2013 season.
     
  6. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I never said any QB has perfect accuracy. He certainly had some "issues", "struggles" with his accuracy and I mentioned it was particularly with the deep balls. I don't think "struggles/issues" is the same as "a lot" and "some", but forget that bro. Whatever. I also agreed with his inability to sense pressure. JMO.
     
  7. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    I think there are aspects of this thinking that are correct but I believe there are more net positives than negatives, thus tannehill was a reason we won more games that a reason we lost more games. The problem is this isnt running or tennis. It's a team game and nothing happens in a vacuum. The issues raised repeatedly of the historically bad ol, and the lack of running game are genuine inhibitors to success. Looking at the list I'm not sure how many of the other qbs after 8 would have been more successful than Ryan. I think however he'd perform better (in a pure stats measure) in a number of other teams. So is RT really the problem? I'm not sure.
     
  8. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    "Can start and compete with him with a good supporting cast and quality coaching, but lacks something, i.e., arm talent (strength or accuracy), poise, instincts. Not good enough. To win with him 2 of the 3 of the phases have to be dominate or surround him with high caliber players."

    I don't know, when you look at the group he has Tannehill in you notice the other guys teams are picking ahead of Miami, in some cases way ahead. Miami has a decent team talent wise but we are not dominant in any phase of the game but somehow wound up a game out of the playoffs. I think the list is fairly close to being accurate but I think Tannehill has shown enough to at least be in the area that RGIII and Bradford are in. Its a little harsh to bring up the sack total without at least mentioning that he had no running game and that our Oline was basically backup quality players and Pouncey. I think the Athlete trying to be a Qb assessment showed a bias or lack of actually watching Tannehill. The list wasn't THAT bad or THAT off but I do think he was showing some bias.

    Its weird when you watch a lot of the former GMs on TV or read their writing, they just seem to loathe certain players or be in love with some guys in an irrational way. It shows how they can be bias or just downright wrong about players for reasons that just aren't based in any kind of rational thought. You would think that someone that is on the NFL level would not react to certain players like a fan does but I see it in most of their assessments, they just hate some players for whatever reason. You never know because they might have interviewed a player personally or have seen vetting or security info that we aren't privy to and that might cause them to have some bias.
     
  9. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hes the bears equivalent of Jeff ireland. He had 1 good draft, 2003, and made a decade out of it. Bears fans and media loathe him in almost the same way we loathe Ireland. His only saving grace is he never called anyones mom a hooker and he never had a Jonathan Martin/Richie Incognito incident. But he probably sucks worse as a talent evaluator. http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bears-huddle/2011/12/jerry-angelo-a-complete-draft-history/
     
  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Yes. Locker was a really ****ty prospect to me too. But he was lights out before injury this past season. All the talk about him getting cut in Tennessee has me confused. Munchak getting fired was also weird. Locker was playing well and to replace your starter with Ryan Fitzpatrick is a challenge.
     
  11. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    well Ross is a tool, everyone knows that. don't hate Philbin or Aponte, just wanted them fired. and I like Tannehill, relax. just because I don't love and support every decision the team makes like you doesn't mean I dislike or hate everything.
     
  12. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I hate the list and would say so regardless of Tannehill's placement.





    Cam Newton on par with Drew Brees?
    - No. I love Cam Newton. I'm just not ready to say he's as good as Drew Brees, especially considering their respective roles. Drew Brees carries an entire offense and does so every season. Cam Newton, when asked to carry an entire offense has produced a 12-20 record. Cam may one day be elite, but he's not there yet.

    Why is Cam Newton ahead of Russell Wilson?
    - There are similarities w/the way their teams are built, but Wilson had at minimum, the same challenges on offense w/better results and more consistency. And he's just as good of a runner too, IMO. In fact, Russell Wilson is arguably the best running QB in football IMO because he never takes senseless hits and still gets the yardage he wants/needs. It's impressive. There might be bigger, more powerful, faster runners at QB, but he does it right, everytime.

    Andrew Luck is rated a bit low.
    - Much has been talked about with Tannehill's surrounding cast, but Luck has also had a number of issues w/ his offensive line. skill position players. and offensive injuries. Yeah, his 8 turnovers in the playoffs weren't impressive and he has responsibility in that, but he carried a team that grew weaker every week. Arguably deserves to be higher than Newton too.

    Colin Kaepernick is too high.
    - Complete regression across the board. Doesn't throw in tight windows often and he he does, the results are mixed to say the least.

    Nick Foles is too low
    - Why is he not on par w/the elite QB's? If we're talking season singles, Nick Foles needs to elevated into the near elite category at the very least. Not only did he perform well, he made his offense better, even despite losing Maclin and elevating Riley Cooper to Eric Decker status.

    Tony Romo is too low
    - Tony Romo isn't nearly as bad or as big of a choker as he's made to be. That Dallas offense (organization too) is all over the place and has no real identity week to week. Their scheme and gameplan is Jekyll and Hyde.

    Jay Cutler is too high
    - Jay Cutler reminds me of another Jay. Jay Fiedler. The only difference is he has a cannon for an arm. He can't stay healthy and he doesn't read defenses. Brandon Marshall, Alshon Jeffery, Matt Forte, and Martellus Bennett, and yet he manages to get outplayed by 34 year old journeyman Josh McCown in every way, by a wide margin. He put a year together slightly better than Tom Brady, who for most of the year was throwing to crappy rookies... He's the most overrated QB in the game today, bar none.

    Matt Stafford is hype.
    - Looking at Matthew Stafford's career w/out Calvin Johnson paints an incredibly bad picture. Statistically, Matthew Stafford is average-below average when throwing in the direction of any other player outside of Megatron. I don't have the article in front of me now, but I will try to find the analytics article that shows how badly Stafford performs outside of Calvin Johnson. I couldn't believe the discrepancy. Watching him play this season, I really think he's a product of passing volume and CJ, which is far off from what I believed about him coming into 2013.

    As for Tannehill
    - CK has correctly pegged Tannehill thus far, IMO. When he's hot, he's hot. When he's cold, he's freezing. Given his age, experience, and the offensive deficiencies he's dealt with this year (and last year), I'm still hopeful about his ability to become a top 10 QB. While Locker, Orton, RGIII, Schaub have no place ahead of him on this list, I do think it's fair to lump him in w/ Andy Dalton, Carson Palmer, and Joe Flacco. Those 3 guys have a lot of similarities w/Tannehill, including hot/cold streaks.
     
  13. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Matt Ryan is too low and Alex Smith too high. Everything he said bad about Matt can be said of Alex. Really shallow ranking so we shouldn't pay too much attention to it. Losing your top two WRs for the year hurt him a little but he still put up respectable numbers. He had spectacular completion numbers and his INT rate only crept up slowly.

    What is Alex Smith without Jamaal Charles. A pretty good QB but not a whole lot.
     
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  14. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    The one thing I would say is this: we have no idea who Ryan Tannehill is as a QB unmarried from Mike Sherman. You may as well be ranking Sherman. Tannehill, literally, never had a different coach develop him in college either… again it was Sherman and the son-in-law QB coach.

    This year will tell us everything we need to know about Tannehill.

    #TannehillUnplugged
     
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  15. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    This is what pissed me off about it. If he didn't think highly of Tannehill, then that's fine. It's his opinion. But he's making s**t up in the process that simply isn't true.
     
  16. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    well yeah, if you're going to somehow blame him for the 58 sacks, i guess he sucks.

    thats the biggest cop-out i've seen by anyone posing as a professional and not a forum poster.

    Disregard the blatant reason for his struggles and blame him for everything else. right.
     
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  17. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    We were down 15-0 against Tampa and came back to take the lead. Down 10-0 to the Pats and trailed late and came back to win. Trailed the Falcons, Bengals and Steelers in the 4th quarter too and came back to win and Tannehill played a huge part in that.

    Like I said, if Angelo doesn't think Tannehill will become anything special, then fine. But this guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's flat out wrong about a lot of the stuff he said.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Since college Ryan Tannehill has had a high percentage of games with 3+ turnovers during an individual game. Yet he also is capable of setting franchise records for consecutive passes without an interception.

    That's how accurate your depiction is.
     
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  19. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    i think the cheifs playoff game answered that. Check downs and not a lot else.
     
  20. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    Agreed with good arm, athlete, questionable accuracy, can't feel pressure in the pocket. I disagree with the notion that he can't pull himself or his team out of it when things aren't going well. The whole offensive scheme put too much on Tannehill's shoulders. The scheme was simplistic, left little room for error on the long ball, and provided no support from the OL, RB, or OC. Hopefully, he improves with some support from the surrounding cast including the OL, RB, OC, and QB coach. I'm not expecting Wallace to give 100% every play, but hopefully he plays better in the 4th qtr.
     
  21. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    The list is garbage and I didn't even look at it. All QBs have different skill sets and play in different circumstances so it's near impossible to rank them accurately. It's all about scheme, supporting cast and personal preference.

    Im high on Tannehill bc of how versatile he is. He's best suited for a Houston or Washington style offense but he can play pretty much anywhere in any system and be productive. He's not great at anything but he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. There aren't many QBs you can say that about, even among the elite guys.
     
  22. No way do I agree with that list for 2013 performances, in fact I disagree with more of his ranking then I agree with.
     
  23. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Thats what confuses me. All year long I heard about how the OL was the worst ever, the GM sucks, the OC sucks, Wallace doesn't fit the system, etc yet the team was 8-8. Kinda sounds like we would have been 16-0 if we didn't suck so bad. As for RT, if the OL was terrible, the run game just as bad, the OC clueless yada yada yada and he still put up decent numbers then how can he be a mediocre QB? Wouldn't a mediocre QB look terrible if he were playing with all those handicaps?
     
  24. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    They ran on average only 22 times a game and averaged 37 passes a game. Their total rushing attempts were 29th least in the NFL despite a decent 4.1 average. I just believe the offensive scheme wasn't balanced and it didn't utilize players talents to potential. In contrast, the Eagles were 4th most in rushing attempts. I'm not sure if Bill Lazor will run a WCO but hopefully it will be a bit more balanced.
     
  25. NolePhin15

    NolePhin15 Well-Known Member

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    The Dolphins were also dead last in first downs gained by rushing. Tannehill was literally the only reason this offense moved down the field.
     
  26. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And the head coach who doesn't care about balance is still here ...
     
  27. I still have not figured out what he cares about other than not having players stand up to him.
     
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  28. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    Winning first prize in a skeletor lookalike contest? I really want this to be the year that he proves what he is worth and why Ross has such faith in him.
     
  29. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I mean...you cant really argue against anything he said. I guess it comes down to whether or not you think this is as good as Tannehill will get, which most or alot of us believe he will really take a jump in year three. But, jumps are like potential, and potential gets you fired. Hes gotta throw potential out the window with Sherman, and start being a franchise QB this season.
     
  30. bberg

    bberg Squid

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    [TABLE="class: free, width: 100%"]
    [TR="bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]
    [TD]5.5[/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Matt Sanchez
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Hmm.. never heard of him.
     
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    as a fan my hope is he's about the herb brooks approach to coaching.
     
  32. phinfan4ever

    phinfan4ever New Member

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    RT's two biggest areas of improvement he has to make if Miami is going to become a legit team are 1) pocket awareness and 2) downfield accuracy. Those two areas keep him from being higher on that list IMO.
     
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  33. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Tannehill is in the bottom 10 of the league in deep ball accuracy, dead last? Jake Locker.

    Also Russell Wilson is 3rd, one notch above Peyton Manning.
     
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  34. phinator

    phinator New Member

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    whats he done give the NFL Rex Grossman and Kyle Orton?
     
  35. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    By the way, just wanted to add a point of information to this thread where Tannehill is being thought of as a bottom tier QB, PFF graded him as finishing 7th in the NFL in 2013 according to their overall QB metrics, behind Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers, and McCown; and just ahead of Tom Brady. I realize their system is not the be-all-end-all, but thought I'd throw that out there.
     
  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    why? to be in the 7.5 to 7.9 range he needs a good history of play. Tannehill has no such history..... and 7.0 to 7.4 would actually be an inferior category for him b/c it would suggest he's an ok player but his ceiling seems maxed out.

    6.5 to 6.9 is exactly where he should be in this instance.
    -can't yet win on his own? check
    -can't yet win without great coaching? check
    -currently lacks something [like accuracy]? check
    -currently lacks in instincts? check
    -not good enough at the moment? check

    The good thing about this category is that it's where talented players with upside go who have the potential to turn all the deficiencies around and catapult into the 8.0-8.4 range or higher.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    -currently lacks something [like accuracy]? uncheck

    Now if you said,

    -current lacks something [like 30+ accuracy]? check

    Tannehill is one of the better accurate medium throwing quarterbacks that have been with the Dolphins since Marino retired. Only Pennington has been better.
     
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  38. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Yea fifteen yards and in, Tanny is an assassin.
     
  39. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I would say 25 yards in. I have seen some great, accurate passes from him around 25 yards.

    I do not remember the game, but a longer pass to Hartline that was caught out of bounds was one of the better throws and catches I have seen.
     
  40. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    It's a big play league, he needs to get the deep ball going. It will be what makes or breaks his career IMO.
     

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