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Dan Patrick and Dan Fouts talk Dan Marino

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Da 'Fins, Jan 10, 2014.

  1. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I connect with Dan Patrick (think he is the best in the business) - probably because we are the same age and he knows all the old school teams / players, etc.

    But, today he and Fouts were talking about Marino and the records. Fouts listed Marino in his best throwers of all time (along with Namath, Jurgensen, Elway and Burt Jones). I became a Marino fan because I loved Namath's throwing. (I would actually put Warren Moon in there - perhaps the most beautiful spiral in NFL history; and might even put Brady in there - not the strength but he throws a great ball).

    Patrick said that Marino, in today's offenses, would throw for 6000+ yards. I completely agree.

    Marino could go for 6K yards and easily get over 50 TDs imo. Not only, as DP pointed out, could no one get to him because of his release, but then in today's game with the way the QB is protected - he could stand back there with near impunity and his quick release would likely lead to a number of roughing the passer penalties. Eventually, players would be terrified to hit him. No telling how great that would make him.

    I don't think Dan was the greatest QB of all-time because he was not the tactician that a Manning is (or Unitas) - but I'd put he and Namath #1 and 1a as pure passers because of both their passing accuracy and their release.

    Go back and watch old film of Namath and of Marino. No one has ever come close to their motion or release.
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The arrogance Marino had in his amazing physical gifts are precisely why I wouldn't want him calling any shots on the Dolphins today. I also think its one factor of many why he doesn't have a ring.

    All that sure made him fun to watch though.
     
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  3. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    guys I have figured out why Marino couldn't win a super bowl ring.

    it was who was the head coach , it was we couldn't keep our key running backs healthy therefore we had a revolving door at rb's .

    Jimmy did a horrible job of evaluating offensive players. in fact Wannstedt drafted better offensive players while Jimmy drafted better defensive players.

    if Dan Marino would have had Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown along with McMichael , Donald Lee , Wes Welker and Chris Chambers I think we could have won at least one super bowl.
     
  4. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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  5. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Namath isn't eveven one of the top 50 QBs of all time in my opinion. Granted I haven't seen him play aside from historic film, but come on.
     
  6. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Jimmy had him for four years, at the tail end of his career (in his last season, he was cooked, he had nothing left).

    Do you recall the steaming mess Don Shula left behind for Jimmy to clean up? No cap space, bloated contracts to bad players.

    The reason Danny did not win a ring was simple, Don Shula the General Manager.

    - '84 he used first and second round picks on Jackie Shipp and Jay Brophy, both of whom were terrible. Bud Brown was an 11th round pick, and stuck around the longest. He was atrocious.

    - '85 he used a first on Lorenzo Hampton, he was horrible. Jeff Dellenbach was a useful player for awhile, Ron Davenport was productive as a rookie and Reveiz was a decent kicker.

    - '86 we had traded our 1st for Hugh Green (who was a beast but his knee blew up). Offerdahl was fantastic. The 2nd best player we picked that year was Reyna Thompson, who wasn't productive until we cut him.

    - '87 we picked John Bosa, who probably would have been really good but he could not stay in one piece. Rick Graf was GARBAGE. Troy Stratford was productive as a rookie, then fell off the map.

    That is five years of Dan Marino in his M.V.P. prime, with NOTHING from the draft, nothing. In todays league, Don Shula the G.M. would have been fired. Instead, it went on and on. Don Shula had 12 total drafts with Dan Marino as his quarterback and did almost nothing in that time to fix the defense.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Marino, Marino, Marino.

    Its a shame you have no aptitude for reading, otherwise you'd see I said "one of the factors". That means there were more than one factor.

    Marino, Marino, Marino.
     
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  8. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    There are a few out there, and I'm happy to hear Dan Patrick is one of them, that realize how deadly Marino would be in today's NFL. Marino played like Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady play today in an era where DBs were allowed to absolutely mug WRs. Since 2005, DBs can't even look at a WR cross eyed without drawing a flag. Only Peyton Manning had talent even close to Marino when it comes to passing prior to 2005.

    This isn't opinion, it's fact. It's not a coincidence all Marino's records fell AFTER the league changed how they call pass interference after the 2005 playoffs. It's no coincidence Brett Farve revitalized his career after 2005. It's no coincidence QBs like Tom Brady and Drew Brees went from being just very good QBs to superstars after 2005. And it's no coincidence 4,000 yards passing became the new norm after 2005.

    Marino in his prime in post 2005 NFL would be a site for sure.
     
  9. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Namath? Really? Most people don't list him near the top.

    I do agree with Marino being able to put up video game numbers in today's NFL. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but the fact that you can't even breathe on WRs in today's NFL would probable give him the biggest boost.
     
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  10. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    I believe the OP was referring to Namath's throwing motion (i.e., quick release). Not that he was one of the all time great QB's. I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of the post.
     
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  11. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Arrogance made marino great.Your arrogance makes you a tool!
     
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  12. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    Namath had a golden arm and was a tough SOB. He was also a hell of an athlete before he tore his ACL at Alabama. Things being what they were back then, Namath finished out the season, further damaging the knee along the way before ultimately having surgery after the season. Knee surgery ended a lot of careers back then but Namath managed to get to the pros anyway, without the fleet feet. But before that he had wheels like Manziel.

    He's a Jet and all, but I love the guy. And he played a big role in Shula landing in Miami.

    Greatest QB ever? Marino's up there, but he's not at the top. Greatest passer? Yessir. He'd rewrite the records today.
     
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  13. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Once you stop faulting him for not singlehandedly winning Super Bowls in Miami there really is no reason he's not the best ever. He blew every passing record out of the water. What is a QB if not a passer first and foremost. We're knocking him for what exactly outside the realm of 'passing'? Because he couldn't scramble like Elway or wasn't as durable as Favre? Because he wasn't as "cerebral" as Peyton Manning? I really don't get this. Ask Jeff George how far a great arm alone will get you.

    The fact of the matter is that in this modern era of pass pass pass his records have been predictably broken. Yet despite everything that goes in favor of the QB these days they were barely broken. None of these QBs have completely changed the perception of what a QB is capable of doing in the NFL. Dan Marino did that and it's why he's the greatest to ever play. He didn't just break records, he moved to a completely different field. Sammy Baugh turned the QB position into a passing position. Dan Marino took it to a new level and it took 20 years and all kinds of new pass favoring rules for anybody else to catch up and do what he could do in a season.
     
  14. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Brady has three and Rapistberger has two so I don't believe that at all.
     
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  15. Griese's Glasses

    Griese's Glasses Well-Known Member

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    Championships don't make or break a player, we are all smart enough to know that. Of course they don't hurt your argument either but when we are evaluating 1 position in a sport that needs 3 different teams of players + several teams of coaches to form a cohesive unit....putting the weight of having no rings on Marino's shoulders is just unreasonable. If anything Marino made this club credible at times when we were indeed a bad overall team (think late 80s, early 90s, late 90s).

    I love the guy personally. I don't care if some see him as a jerk or a arrogant prick but to me I see it as having passion and being involved.. But never when I sit there and think about how good he was do I stop and think "but...he never won it all". Dilfer and Johnson would automatically be more accomplished then Dan by that logic right? No chance.

    Bad circumstances, bad luck....and yet the guy was loyal and kept at trying to make Miami a winner. He is one of, if not THE hero of this franchise. He is definitely top 5 GOATs and with a good argument perhaps THE GOAT.

    Again remember we are just evaluating Marino on 1 level: his ability to play QB. Elway and Montana are just fantastic too but in some ways Dan was a better pure QB than these guys (incredibly fast + accurate release that no one has been able to replicate since, for one). The SB stuff should just be left as a question worded like: "Why didn't Miami win a SB with Marino?" as opposed to "Why didn't Marino win a SB?"
     
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  16. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Arrogance
    an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people

    confidence - freedom from doubt; belief in yourself and your abilities;

    I' ll stick with confidence
     
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  17. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    People like to change that into "pure passer". Which is somehow different from being a QB even though that's by and large the most important thing a QB does. You want a QB to a) throw completions for yards, thus moving your offense and b) throw TD passes, thus scoring points. Marino was better than anybody else at that. I guess me being a homer is why I can't see how he can be the best ever at the most important things that QBs are asked to do but not be the best ever period. In the end people can try to talk around it but they penalize him for not winning Super Bowls.
     
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  18. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    Let's see. The greatest coach of all time admitted failure in providing Danny with enough supporting talent, but you believe Marino was at fault!!? Unreal. Even for you. Your "Marino, Marino, Marino" reply betrays your listed age.
     
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  19. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Yes, you said one of the many yet you only chose to write and bring into focus a factor which puts him into a negative light.
    It amazes my how some Dolphins fans prefer to piss all over Marino for some reason.
    I have never understood it and never will quite frankly.
    The guy carried..... CARRIED the Dolphins for years.
    He carried a mismanaged roster full of blown draft picks.

    Marino never won a ring because while Shula was a GREAT coach, he was an awful GM.
     
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  20. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Look you won't hear me knocking Marino for much.
    I respect the hell out of the player he was and his abilities.

    There's a difference between Marino's game where his confidence in being able to put a ball into the smallest of places made him a success and a QB like Manning who can disect a defense apart and find weaknesses at will. I don't put many over Marino but Manning I absolutely do.
     
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  21. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Personally I've never really understood the Namath love.
    The guy was pedestrian. In his best year.... best year.... he had 3 more TD's than INT's. Seriously?
    I don't think he belongs to even be in the discussion of greats at the QB position and I firmly believe he wouldn't be had he not made the prediction prior to the Super Bowl.
    That's really what he is known for.

    As far as Marino playing today.... It wouldn't even be a fair fight any time he stepped on the field.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I said arrogance in his physical gifts. That's precisely what it was. Dan was not a student of the game like a Manning, and it was because he didn't think he needed to be. Imagine how much MORE he could have accomplished had he studied the game....

    So what you're saying is that studying produces no results. You have to be saying that, because Marino didn't study film, and you're acting like there is nothing more Marino could have done.

    Wait, if I say anything negative about Marino I must also say something positive too or you'll give me ****? Is that rule now?

    I have said plenty of good about Marino over the years. I moved heaven and earth to get me and my dad to his retirement ceremony....first game I had ever been too. I have an autographed football and jersey in a display case that goes with me in a fire.

    Marino had one HUGE flaw and its that he treated study and strategy like they were unnecessary. He did everything he did acting as if it was sandlot. That's amazing, but it should also be infuriating to consider how much more he could have accomplished.
     
  23. Marino was nothing short of amazing and he basically scored at will. His problem was not his study habits. He could identify the open receiver and deliver the ball perfectly. There was no stopping the guy. He had zero help from the running game in a time period when the defense was allowed to mug your recievers and maul the QB. Marino was running the 2 minute offense before it existed. The problem was it left too much time on the clock and he gassed his own defense. It was bad luck that they could not get a decent RB to compliment his passing game.
     
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  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No one's arguing he didn't get any help from his running game or defense. All of those are other factors. I'm talking about one factor and if film study wouldn't have made him better then it makes no player better and is a pointless exercise...right?
     
  25. I am not arguing with you that film study is not important. I do not think it was a weakness he had is the point I am making. He had no problem dissecting defenses.
     
  26. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Actually the greatest coach of all time IMO, once said this telling quote..

    "Joe Montana was a product of a system, Dan Marino WAS a system"
     
  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It can't be both. Its either important and helps or it doesn't.
     
  28. OK man you win. Marino just had a very lucky career :pity:
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Did I say that? No, I said he used his supreme physical gifts. His quick release was years and years of hard work, for example.

    Why is what I'm saying so crazy? Who isn't better at something after studying?
     
  30. Nothing tactical about this play huh...

    [video=youtube;eZfzr9tB4oo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZfzr9tB4oo[/video]
     
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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That play wasn't his idea. Do some research.
     
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  32. That's news to me but I will take your word for it. Who's was it, out of curiousity?


    FTR I used it as an example to illustrate Marinos ability to dissect a defense which is why you study film. Marino had no problem finding the open receivers. How much film study he actually did does not matter because at the end of the day it was enough. At least that is my opinion.
     
  33. Maybe explaining it this way might help claify the point I am making to you:

    You used Manning as an example so I am going to use him too. Manning isn't much of a scrambler but if he spent his off seasons training for track he could improve that skill. He does not need to because he is a good enough pocket passer that scrambling isn't something he needs to do to win games. It would be a waste of his resources if he studied less film so that he could train for track.

    I do not know how much time Marino dedicated to the film room but however much it was. It was enough. He spent 17 years exploiting defenses.
     
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  34. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing that Walsh bit. Gave me goosebumps. Who knows if Marino would have thrown for 6k, but I would have liked to have seen him try. Not many (if ANY) were throwing back-shoulder passes before Marino. Now it is commonplace.

    I know the defenses are basically handcuffed these days, hence the increase in passing statistics, but I am curious if anyone has the numbers (YPA, comp, att, etc.) from guy like Brees, Brady, Manning, compared to Marinos' best years?
     
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  35. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bernie Kosar's idea. True geniuses steal others ideas.
     
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  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You are not equating two like things. Scrambling is a unique ability, studying is not. Spending all off season practicing scrambling if you're not a scrambling QB won't really produce results. Studying film and defenses will produce results and anyone can do it. Marino accomplished a lot without it, but he could have accomplished more.

    Take the flipside for a moment and look at Zach Thomas. ZT had the heart/competitiveness that Marino had but he had virtually no physical gifts. Not fast, not big, not super athletic. He was an amazing student of the game however, and because of that was one of the best ever. Imagine what he could have done with the physical gifts Ray Lewis or Urlacher possessed coupled with his study. Now, imagine Marino's physical gifts with Manning's study habits.

    Look at it like this, say Marino as he was and Marino as he was but with Manning's level of study were both available.....who would you pick?
     
  37. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    You have to understand that Namath was 20 years before Marino. If you think that the difference was huge between Marino's time and 2005, you should see the stuff DBs got away with in 1964 on. The hammer shot and clothesline were still around, for starters and there is a reason the bump and run was popular. A 20 touchdown season was spectacular - and the rules against what today are considered 15 yard penalties did not exist as far as hitting the QB.

    It was a completely different era even from the Marino era. Throw in Namath's almost non-existent knees, and it was amazing to see him play. If you can, get some tape or you tube of Namath at Alabama - Like one person before said, he looked more like Johnny Football than Johnny Unitas.

    In the 1968 season, my uncle who was a RABID Baltimore Colts fan, swore that Unitas and the Colts would mop the stadium with the Jets. Being a young smartass fresh out of high school (when Mama and Daddy weren't around) - I rose to the bait and ran my mouth back at him. His temper was legendary (almost as bad as Daddy's) and I got cussed at a lot in football arguments, specially about Unitas v. Namath!

    Then, the first time I saw him after that Superbowl, we were alone in the house. I was a freshman at the local college, and he knew the kind of stuff that went on with freshmen in college. He walked over to the refrigerator, pulled out two long neck buds, handed one to me, and said "Just keep your f****** mouth shut, y'hear!!!!"
     
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  38. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Again, I think the original post was more about the quick release of the QB's listed (of which Marino is probably the best known for), hence best passer. Not best QB of all time.

    As far as I'm concerned, and I was as big a Marino fan as anyone back in the day, he is the best passer I have ever seen. The combination of his quick release, and his ability to go through his progressions quickly made him one of the hardest QB's to defend. And, funnest to watch. To this day I have not enjoyed watching anyone play the game as much as I did Dan.

    But, other factors; like poor drafting, no real run game (i.e., an over reliance on the passing game), which often led to scoring too quickly and putting a gassed D back on the field late in the game (which was a great point by fellow member shula_guy), and yes some arrogance on his part at times (like audibling out of called running plays because he wanted to take a shot) prevented him from winning it all. Well, that and fate too really. I mean, let's face it...he only had one real chance, and that was against one the best teams ever, and one of the greatest QB's of all time back (the 49ers and Joe Montana). And, like it or not when talking about greatest QB's of all time, winning championships is one of the key components that you have to take into consideration. Marino is therefore widely considered the best to play the position that never won it all.

    If we're really going to have this conversation about best QB of all time, Montana has to be at or near the top IMHO. Why, because the bigger the game, the cooler he was. That's why they called him Joe Cool. I'm sure everyone's heard the story about him pointing out John Candy in the stands (from the huddle) during their comeback SB win against the Bengals. That was Montana. The guy never buckled under pressure. He just won.

    That was a component missing from Marino's game. His intensity at times was just too much. He would tear a guy down for running the wrong route or a blown assignment. A truly great QB knows how to get the most out of everyone around him. And, that means at times lightening up a little. They know how to manage not only the game, but the guys around them. Marino couldn't do that. He just wasn't wired that way. He challenged everyone. The opposition, their coaches, his coaches, his supporting cast. Everyone. He challenged them all to play at his level. The problem was, few, if any, could do that.

    JMHO.
     
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  39. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Great stuff Rev! :up:
     
  40. GreysonWinfield

    GreysonWinfield Release The Hounds

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    At that point in his career it hurts, IMO. You can't take an instinctive and physically gifted player, then re-program them to play a different style, they see the game differently than other players. It's also why athletes like this fall off so quickly once they break down physically.
     

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