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So would u give Ireland one last year?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolfan40, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    "If it ain't broke don't fix it"
    Let's see how far this team can go, but if we make it to the playoffs or dare I say win a game or two, I think Ireland should be kept. Like it or not this team is currently winning with the talent acquired by Ireland, let's see if they can keep it up.
     
    the 23rd likes this.
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    In regards to Ireland's employment with the Dolphins, I really don't have much information to go off of, which makes it nearly impossible to evaluate his performance.

    However, if I am going to base my opinion on the face value of the situation - the talent on the roster - then I don't see how Ireland shouldn't be retained. The team is not only full of talented players, but it is full of talented young players.

    If the 2011 and 2012 drafts continue to play the way they have recently, then there is a strong argument that they are homerun-type drafts:

    Ryan Tannehill
    Mike Pouncey
    Charles Clay
    Rishard Matthews
    Olivier Vernon
    Jimmy Wilson

    Then you also have guys like Daniel Thomas and Lamar Miller, who have shown flashes. That is a great haul over two drafts IMO.

    Free agency has had some mis-fires. Mike Wallace and Ellerbe being obvious ones. But they also had some great FA signings like Brent Grimes, Brandon Gibson, Reggie Bush, etc. Considering how bad of a value proposition FA is, I think the team's record comes out pretty favorable.

    On top of all that, Miami's salary cap situation going forward is strong, despite a couple of bad contracts.

    I'm not really sure how much more could be expected from the organization at this point. They are going to likely end up with 9-10 wins, with both a second year head coach, and a second year QB (who was pretty inexperienced to begin with). The QB the team drafted has shown a serious progression, and over the last half of the season has played at an elite level.

    All things considered, the Miami Dolphins very much are on the right path. Taking things at face value, I don't really think there should be any major changes.
     
    the 23rd, GMJohnson and Brasfin like this.
  3. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    How many players a team keeps out of any given draft will at least partially depend on how strong their veteran roster already is.
     
  4. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    The way I see it is if this team makes the playoffs, it will mean Ireland has his QB and his coaching staff, add to that a good cap space for next year and all of our draft picks to work with and he will have most of his problems solved.

    His real test will be in 2014, if with all of this to work with he cannot patch up the current issues, or worse, new problems arise and this team takes a step backwards, then by all means fire him. But if in 2014 and beyond the team continues progressing, then yes, he should be kept.
     
  5. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I wouldnt keep Jeff Ireland at this point even if we won the Super Bowl. Gingerboy has got to go. The more I analyze the more I think Joe Philbin is a hell of a coach.

    This is Jeff Irelands draft and Ive rarely seen so many injuries from 1 draft class:
    Dion Jordan - Ok no problem with the pick but he was hurt when we took him and its affected his playing time and his development.
    Jamar Taylor - Hurt when we took him barely played all year
    Will Davis - Hurt most of the season, barely played
    Dallas Thomas - Hasnt played much, hurt much of camp and OTA's.
    Dion Sims - Outside of the Atlanta game hasnt done much. At least hes healthy
    Jelani Jenkins - Has done ok but was hurt for much of the first few games
    Mike Gillissee - 3rd string tailback
    Caleb Sturgis - Has played with a groin strain, but might be our best pick
    Don Jones - Special teams contributor

    So essentially any improvements have simply been depth players and because we now have Mike Wallace on the field to stretch the d and make a few plays. We can call Burnett and Dansby for Wheeler and Ellerbe a downgrade because it is. Dansby's played like the Dansby I thought we were going to get instead of just the "good" player we got and Wheeler has been blah. Grimes has been good but Tyson Clabo hasnt been. We never did anything close to replacing Jake Long despite Philbin asking him to get him another player besides Jon Martin at LT.

    Hes not a good GM. Joe Philbin just knows how to coach. This is essentially a similar team to last year. The improvements being made right now are because Tannehill is playing like a franchise QB and the defense is doing enough not because Jeff Ireland had the slightest clue what he was doing.
     
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  6. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Those drafts were objectively and genuinely bad, and some of those teams, even the very successful ones had some notable weaknesses and holes.
     
  7. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The improvements have clearly been from the 2011 and 2012 draft classes. Its also a prime example as to why you shouldn't judge a draft class after one season.
     
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  8. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Wow, so essentially what you're saying is that Joe Philbin is in the Don Shula range, because if our GM is so bad that the coach can make chicken salad out of chicken **** then he is surely one of the best coaches of all times... :shifty:
    Oh, and how can you be so sure that Coyle wasn't the one who pulled for the LB swap? Ireland didn't just go out and make a move like that without consulting his coaches first and foremost.


    I personally think all of this falls somewhere in the middle, Ireland is an ok to good GM and the coaching staff is also somewhere around that range and now that we have our QB, everything is falling into place.
     
  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I made a typo (what I get for typing without my contacts). I meant to say I'd judge him (not *just) on the rest of the roster. I used Polian as an example of someone who rode the coattails of a successful QB for too long. I didn't mean Ireland = Polian. I said I'd judge him to make sure he wasn't another Polian.

    So yeah, my typo made it seem like I'd fire him. I would evaluate him on everything, giving him some credit on Tanehill, but keeping in mind we already have Tannehill. If there is an upgrade at GM why not?
     
  10. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I agree.

    There have been entirely too many free agent misfires and too many misfires early in the draft. When you combine that with Jeff Ireland's personality and his approach to the media, it is grounds for dismissal.
     
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  11. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    That's a good question deserves an answer, I couldn't find it but I did find this tidbit.
    Test results
     
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  12. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    You don't judge a draft class after 14 games. That's just silly. And really, you're leaving out some key details on guys like Davis and Jenkins. Davis was always going to be a project, we knew that. Some positions, CB especially, simply have very steep learning curves. Oh and Ireland got us to the point where we haven't really needed Davis or Taylor. And Jenkins has actually played really well lately in spot coverage duty.

    We're 8-6 without needing contributions from many of our rookies, giving them time to learn and develop. That's a good thing. Dallas Thomas and maybe Gills are the picks about which I can say that they should be playing by now (just given our issues at OL and RB). But they went in the 3rd and 5th rounds - hardly players who you can say should be starters in their first year.

    Developing guys from recent drafts are carrying our team - Odrick, Vernon, Misi, Carroll, Jones, Clay, Mathews. This roster is very talented.

    Oh, and we have a QB. Which is kind of all that matters. Lots of GM jobs are kept because of this alone.
     
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  13. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The Colts were averaging about 12 wins a season through most of the last decade. Granted Manning was the main reason, but their entire starting lineup had to contribute to win that often. There are fewer holes in a playoff team's roster, and it just stands to reason it is going to be more difficult for mid round rookies to earn a spot when their competition is better. The way to judge his ability to draft talent would be how many stuck in the NFL even if on other teams for multiple seasons. I honestly have not perused the Colts drafts from say 2000 to 2010 lately to see how many of their picks survived in the league for a reasonable stretch of time, if not with the Colts at least on another team's roster. Have you? I seem to recall Polian doing pretty well finding UDFA's for a several seasons too. Guys like Gary Brackett.
    Maybe Polian has lost it, but one has to also give him credit for building the Bills team that went to 4 straight Super Bowls, and the Panthers team that was the fastest expansion team to make the playoffs ever.
     
  14. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Thanks. Guess I'm not going to get one though. Oh well. That article was interesting. This comment stuck out to me: “He is not afraid to say what is on his mind if things are not going as they should. He is likely to be seen as a team enforcer if his level of play lets him assume this role.”
    Depending how much credence the Dolphins give to the those reports, they was no way to see it coming, as for Martin's mental problems.
     
  15. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Again, I will bring this up. What other GM has kept his job not only with a similar track record but that also brought THREE public black eyes upon the organization?
     
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  16. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I can't recall from memory any GM being fired after winning ~10 games and making the playoffs.
     
  17. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    What other GM gets fired after finding a 25 year-old franchise QB and watching his team make playoffs with one of the NFL's youngest rosters?
     
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  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ian Rapaport reports that " Ireland has not been assured that he will be back next year"

    Also Richie will continue to receive his pay, but a decision on him will not come until the report is released.
     
  19. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    How about we evaluate the performance of players like Olivier Vernon, Jared Odrick, Lamar Miller, Daniel Thomas, Charles Clay, Mike Pouncey and of course Ryan Tanehill. All drafted by Ireland and have become great contributors to this team.

    I've read that Dion Jordan might be better served as an outside linebacker because he excels at coverage. Wheeler gets burned way to much.
     
  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think there is really any measure you can make those drafts look good.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/draft.htm

    I mean, go look at that. You go from 2004-2011, and you've got what, Bob Sanders and Antoine Bethea who are even really decent starters? That's horrendous. You can stack whomever you want up against that, Matt Millen, Dave Wannstedt, etc., I don't think you're going to have anyone who can beat that out for horrible drafting.
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think that some want to pretend that anything good that happened must be b/c of Philbin and everything bad must be b/c of Ireland. Personally, I've been a big Philbin fan since before he was hired (I posted several times that he was my first choice when most were pining for Cowher, Gruden or Fisher) and I've always been lukewarm on Ireland as I've always hated Ireland's Parcellian treatment of the media and players. But I can't buy that simplistic narrative. Everything we've heard from the beginning is that the player selection has been a collaborative process. We know the coaches were reviewing tape of the possible FA targets before free agency started, but we're supposed to believe that Ireland ignored their input and chose players they didn't want? And it's not like Miami missed on many of their primary targets. It's far more likely that Wallace, Gibson and the LB swap was exactly whom the coaches wanted. It's also likely that the coaches were in favor of not targeting the big name FA OL. Some want to hang their hat on the vague and tiny rumor of a disconnect between the coaches and the FO (and then of course allocate the bad and good decisions to whomever they favor), but I doubt there was much disconnect at all or at worst that it was very, very minor. The small disconnect I could believe occurred, just b/c it's what I've seen happen, is that Ireland was upset that players he selected weren't playing, i.e. Jordan. That's a common area of discord between coaches and the FO, b/c it's not one that's generally collaborative. Historically that falls entirely under the purview of the coaches. (As it should, IMO). But coaches tend to be very conservative or hesitant to give youngsters an opportunity. Philbin and company may be more than most. If there was any sort of disconnect, I see that as the most likely area.

    IMO a GM has three main jobs, to acquire talent that fits the coach's system, manage the cap and be a face of the franchise. I agree with well-respected talent assessors Polian and Casserly that this is a team stocked with young talent. And most importantly, that young talent is at key positions (QB, pass rushers, pass catchers and pass defenders). That fits well with Philbin's stated priorities about how you win in the NFL (pass and defend the pass better than your opponents). I think it's obvious that the talent acquired was part of a collaboration between the GM and coaches. It's only year two of that collaboration, but it's obviously on schedule. The cap is in great shape so that part is also a win. I think that Ireland has been poor as a face of the franchise. It's been better since Parcells left, but I still wouldn't call it a strength. Fortunately the "face" part can be managed. GM's don't have mandatory interview times each week and a coach and QB can easily become the faces of a franchise. IMO it's obvious that this team is headed towards many years of playoff contention.

    I think Philbin has done a great job of being a steadying influence. I think his straight-forward manner has been invaluable this year. I think the game planning has been a mixed bag. Early on the half-time adjustments seemed very good, but after about the third game I would say our opponents have adjusted better. I thought Belicheck out-coached us yesterday. The Pats have a team full of holes that could have been exploited. Their LBs in coverage are atrocious (particularly compared to ours and I see our LB coverage as about average). We finally exploited that with Thigpen on the final TD, but that should been used throughout, especially as an outlet when the Pats started bringing pressure. I don't think Wallace or RT have been used as optimally as they could have this year. I think the coaches were slow to adapt to to the OL's struggles. They could have mitigated much of that with better play calling a game planning before getting mired in a four game losing streak. But they have finally adjusted. The increased misdirection has helped the run game and they've been more reluctant to abandon the run. There has been more variation in what they're asking Wallace to do. Just getting him involved has an obvious effect on the defense. And they're finally giving young players like Clay and Matthews more opportunities. They've showed some ingenuity in getting our stable of good to excellent pass rushers on the field. There's more but the point is that this staff has improved as the season progressed. Even though I felt that NE out-coached us, I thought the margin was much smaller than in years past. I expect that as Philbin and his staff learns to trust the players more (and vice-a-versa) they'll do an even better job of utilizing the player's strengths, making their success even more likely, more consistent.

    Basically, I see this as team that's coming together on so many levels. I think the collaboration between the FO and the coaches, the coaches and the players and among the players is progressing exponentially. As Philbin said, "we're building a hell of team". I don't see any logical reason to try and stall that process.
     
  22. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Any that has had losing seasons in 4 of the previous 5 years on the job.
     
  23. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    To be honest people have criticized Ireland for his talent acquisition through the draft, but in reality IMHO he has done an above average to good job in this regard.

    For instance if we look at the last 4 drafts, assigning a still incomplete grade to his last one (2013), and using a simple 1-5 rating system where 5 = Star to potential star player; 4 = good player; 3 = contributing player; 2 = mediocre player; and 1 = bust or non contributing player; we can grade his drafts as being really good ones:

    2012.

    1-Ryan Tannehill ---- = Certainly a 4 or 5 grade. Let's call it 4.5 for now.
    2-Jonathan Martin--- = 1
    3-Olivier Vernon ----- = 4
    3-Micheal Egnew ---- = 1.5
    4-Lamar Miller ------- = 3
    5-Josh Kaddu ------- = 1
    6-B.J Cunninham ---- = 1
    7-Kheeston Randall -- = 2
    7-Rishard Matthews -- = 3.5

    2011.

    1-Mike Puncey ---- = 5
    2-Daniel Thomas -- = 3
    4-Edmond Gates -- = 1
    6-Charles Clay ---- = 4
    7-Frank Kearse ---- = 1
    7-Jimmy Wilson ---- = 3

    2010.

    1-Jared Odrick --- = 4
    2-Koa Misi ------- = 3
    3-Jon Jerry ------ = 2
    4-A.J Edds------- = 1
    5-Nolan Carrol --- = 3
    5-Reshad Jones -- = 4
    7-Chris Mccoy --- = 1
    7-Austin Splitter - = 2

    - So in three years, he's gotten 2 potential stars in Puncey and Tannehill with 1st round picks (maybe a 3rd once we see more from Dion Jordan), and another good player in Odrick. That's a very good hit percentage for 1st round picks.
    - 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds have been a littler rougher on Ireland, as he hasn't been able to really get outstanding talent from here. OV might be the sole standout, though Miller can still live up to his talent.
    - Later rounds have been very good despite lower odds, with emerging players like Reshad, Clay and Matthews and solid contributors in Jimmy Wilson and Nolan Carrol.

    IMO where Ireland struggles more is in roster management and future vision, as well as the human relations part of his job, which is incredibly poor.
     
  24. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    You can look at draft picks and add a subjective grade to the drafts of every GM in the league and find reasons to give them credit for something or not fire them. Even Jerry Jones has made some good moves as GM. It doesn't make him a good GM.
     
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  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's why you find a context to put it in, and you get an idea what the success rates for free agency and the draft look like.
     
  26. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not judging a draft class after 1 year. I'm stating he drafted all hurt players.
     
  27. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I have been as anti Ireland as anyone on this forum. Yet, I stated before the season that if the Dolphins have a winning season and go to the playoff, Ireland will deserve to keep his job.

    I still want to see how the season ends before jumping on the Ireland bandwagon, but right now it appears he does deserve to remain as the Dolphins GM if the Dolphins can win their final two games against inferior opponents.

    The two individuals I am the most impressed with in recent weeks have been Philbin and Tannehill. Philbin wasn't my first choice for the head coaching position, but he has proved to very effective so far.

    I wanted the Dolphins to select Kuechly with their first round pick in 2012 and Wilson in the second round. While I still think those would have been great picks for the Dolphins. I will also admit that Tannehill is a much better NFL QB than I thought he would be before the 2012 draft and I now believe he is the long term answer for the Dolphins at the QB position.

    Ireland certainly deserves credit for drafting Tannehill and he and Ross deserve credit for hiring Philbin. I have said all along that I would love Ireland to prove me wrong in my assessment of his abilities as an NFL GM. Right now he and the Dolphins appear to be showing me that I was wrong and I hope they continue to show me how wrong I have been by beating the Bills and Jets the next two weeks and finally making it back to the playoffs.
     
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  28. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    And we haven't felt any heavy consequences from him doing so.

    We're 8-6 with a pretty easy path to the postseason. We have the luxury of bringing those guys along slowly and developing them for the long-haul. Both our third-round picks contributed to our biggest win of the season yesterday - Jenkins was a big key to the win, entering the game when Vereen played and shutting Shane down. Having an entire draft come in and produce in year 1 is rare. We're doing perfectly fine and winning games.

    Look at the jumps guys are making in years two, three or four on this team (Tannehill, Odrick, Vernon, Clay, Mathews, Jones, Misi) - getting good in the NFL is a process.
     
  29. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Isn't it nice to have the luxury of not needing your rookies to come in and play right away?
     
  30. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Wouldn't it be nice to not have to scramble for the last play off spot?
     
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  31. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If the team didn't blow so many leads, they wouldn't be scrambling.
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    That is pretty much a luxury for only 3-4 teams in the entire league. If the argument has become that Miami is not in the top-5 NFL teams, I don't think you will find much argument, but it certainly is a rather absurd standard.
     
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  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Not all were hurt on draft day. Just the top 3 picks were coming off injury, right?
     
  34. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    If the team was properly put together, they wouldn't be blowing leads.
     
  35. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    So, mediocrity is all it takes for a GM to keep his job? Well, that's obvious, since Ireland should have been sent packing along with Tony Sparano.
     
  36. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Part of the process. Sure, it would be nice for Miami to go 12-4 with a second year HC and QB. But I'm not sure its realistic to expect them to have no learning curve. The team is so young that I think those kind of blunders were somewhat expected. Whats important is that the team has learned how to win.
     
  37. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The Miami Dolphins are not a mediocre football team.
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You don't think we'd be better off if our top 3 picks were all guys who were healthy and able to go 100% from the start? Lots of teams are getting good mileage from their rookies. Even top teams like the Pats and Broncos.
     
  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    We are what our final record will say we are. 7-9 to 9-7 is average. Average is mediocre. If we end up 10-6 we're climbing a little above mediocre status.
     
  40. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    They are the definition of mediocre.
     

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