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Solving the Defensive End situation(Wake, Vernon, and Jordan)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Disgustipate, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dion Jordan being under-played has been a pretty big issue with fans, but I think there's a relatively complicated, somewhat related set of circumstances at the defensive end position. Basically, they've got a lot of guys that play the same general position, and need to find a way to manage them better.

    I think there are some aspects to consider:

    • Cameron Wake is a left-side player only
    • The base defense doesn't typically play with two "wide" defenders- Generally, you've got a wide weak-side guy, and a more tighter aligned strong-side guy.
    • All of Wake, OV, and Jordan are "wide" defenders for the most part
    • Jordan hasn't taken any snaps as a base-package LB

    Part of the problem is in practice, someone has to play Jared Odrick's "role". The idea seemed to be going into the season that it would be Olivier Vernon's job. Week 1 and 2 he lined up heavily in that position, and he got his *** kicked badly. When Wake went down, he was moved to more of an edge rusher role with Derrick Shelby as a closed end, and he bloomed.

    After Wake's return, when he and Vernon are on the field, most typically that seems to be Wake's job. He ends up lining up closer to the ball in 6-, or sometimes 5-techniques, and if that's the offensive strong side he ends up lining up between the tackle and tight end. He's made plays and done decent from the position, but I don't know if it's ideal for him. He's still a quite good player, but I think the edge positioning is better.

    That's an issue in its own regard, but adding Dion Jordan makes it more problematic. He's not really a guy whom comes out of the box capable of playing that 6-technique position. He was a 230-240 pound college linebacker whom rarely lined up in a 2-point stance. It would seem to be most logical that he would play linebacker in the base formation, as there's a long history of guys of Jordan's background(Former 3-4 OÆüW¾with coverage upside) playing the SOLB position. However, the team just re-signed Misi and they don't seem willing to put Jordan there.

    I think the defense needs to be changed to accommodate the players, regardless if Kevin Coyle is here or not. I don't think you necessarily need to come up with a situation where all three guys are almost always on the field at the same time generally, but I think that's an option worth considering. I do think you need to find a situation in which you can maintain "two" edge rushers on the field, and find at least occasional packages featuring all three. Here's I think the options:

    1. A New York Giants-style 4-3 - This I think is the best option if Coyle is retained, because it's the closest to what he does now. Basically you've got 3 "edge" rushers on the field at all times. It differs a bit in terms of base alignment and rush tendencies from what Coyle the SOLB/Kiwanuka position rushes more than what Coyle and the Bengal's defense asks from an SOLB-position, and I think the strong-side DE plays a bit of a wider technique more often, both things which I think would fit Wake/Jordan well.

      I'm not a huge fan of the "NASCAR" package being employed in Miami because none of our edge rushers play interior positions particularly well, and at least current the Dolphins have excellent pass rushing defensive tackles, beyond what I think you can expect from an edge rusher can do reduced. I think they'd have to come up with a different Nickel package solution.

    2. A Tampa-2/Wide-9 style front - Basically, a defensive front that is adverse to the idea of a defensive end not lining up shaded outside the outer-most blocker. If an offense lines up real unbalanced, the defense will still keep that edge rusher wider. It's worked with pairs like Dwight Freeney/Robert Mathis or Trent Cole/Jason Babin in the past. It doesn't really mean 3 on the field in terms of base package, but I think it allows you to feature two guys strongly. If you do it "wrong" though, you're up ****'s creek in terms of run defense though.

    3. A 3-4 Defense - Basically, your two OLBs are always lined up as edge rushers and you're not exposing yourself to huge spacing issues in the middle of your defense because you've got three big men instead of two. I think this works well because of how many coverage-oriented guys are in the current defense. There's also a fair amount of 3-4 allied Nickel packages that work well with the idea of getting 3 on the field without an interior guy.
     
  2. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Personally, I'd go with #3 if this staff is gone, and #1 if Coyle is retained. I'd still prefer a 3-4 defense above all else; I think that allows you to get the most out of Wake, Jordan, and OV.
     
  3. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think basically you can summarize the situations as the Dolphins sticking to the "rules" of a defense they aren't really in a good position to run. They were a little bit unorthodox trying to run basically a reversed 4-3 Under last year when Odrick, now they're all over the place in terms of personnel and positioning.
     
  4. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    They should have signed Michael Bennett.
     
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  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This defense is playing very well right now, their coverage is at a high level, their pass rush is elite, it's getting to that point of consistency, I think the most effective use of the #3 overall pick is at linebacker, so can we just make this a personnel decision in the offseason, look for someone who would take wheeler or Misi off our books and give us a pick.?
     
  6. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    A base 3-4 on 1st downs, with a nickel/dime front that has Dion and Wake outside and OV inside, but mixing in some stunts between OV and Dion would be interesting, or just slanting OV to the tackle when Dion drops back, etc. Would be interesting.

    Thing is, Dion is best in a 2 pt stance, which means 3-4 (since they kept Misi, which bothered me, since eI think that was Dion's ideal run-downs position in a 4-3)…. meanwhile Wake is best with his hand in the dirt, in a 4-3.

    We def have a strange mix. And we need to make a decision because if we are not clear and committed to the front's scheme, it makes it harder to weight the importance of Soliai vs Starks at the end of this year.
     
  7. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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    Put Dion Jordan at OLB, and put Wheeler on the bench.

    We need Cam Wake, Olivier Vernon and Dion Jordan on the field at all times.
     
  8. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Our defense is currently ranked #9 in points allowed, we are tied for 4th in sacks and 2nd in INT's. OV has stepped his game and Wake is Wake. We do have a unique and tough problem to have with all 3.

    I like Jordan at LB. His ability to cover the tall TE's is a major plus and he's been really good in coverage. He also has the ability to move around and to attack the QB. I don't know what the base defense looks like but I do know that we have a lot of pieces that can disrupt an offense and I want to see more of it.
     
  9. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    didn't OV get one of his sacks right up the middle? couldn't he shift to the middle and line Jordan up outside? eh what do I know any way lol
     
  10. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Um,

    Our problem is that we have too many good players.


    Why solve it at all?
     
  11. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn't and don't advocate trading anyone, the issue is a matter of getting the players we have on the field and being used to their abilities.
     
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  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Until we become a high scoring offense I don't have a problem with the flipped 4-3 Under but I'd want an appropriate right side closed end, not Vernon. We're not lighting up the scoreboard and in turn forcing opponents into pass-heavy mode, so I'm not sure I see the need for 2 rush ends in base D at the expense of run support. I'd rather go stouter vs the run while opposing offenses can afford to be more conservative & cautious so that we can force them into more frequent 2nd/3rd & long situations and out of their comfort zones. Use the run D to help manufacture more turnovers since we don't have a Brady or Manning applying pressure to make opponents error prone. We'd still have an extra pass rusher on the field if needed to blitz or rush 5, but he'd be at OLB instead of RE. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Misi to give Jordan the full time OLB gig and then let Vernon rotate with Wake at LE and Jordan at OLB to keep everyone fresh. We only need 3 bodies between those 2 positions. The 4 we have now is just overkill.
     
  13. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    Its just my opinion but we have too much invested in Jordan for him to be a situational player. Its not his fault, its just the way he is being utilized. I also believe we are fortunate that OV is coming along as well as he is. With Wake on the north side of 30 we can have hope that we have a ready replacement in OV or Jordan.
     
  14. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Yeah, just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

    All I wanna know is, where did all these guys come from, who is the GM of this team and what the hell is his problem?
     
  15. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Wait, Wake is over just 30 and we already have his replacement(s) on the roster developing?

    Holy sheeeeiit, who is responsible for this madness!!!
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    His cap hit isn't that big.
     
  17. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Don't want to turn it into an Ireland thread. But, I don't question his acquiring of talent. We have talent. It's basic accountability.

    You can't go potentially 5 straight years of missing playoffs and no real improvement and still have a job.
     
  18. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I count this as year 2 of the Philbin era, not year 6 of the Ireland era and I think there has been a lot of improvement from year one to year two.

    You can't ask a guy to build an apartment complex and then in the middle of construction say no no no I want shopping mall instead, then blame him for not having the job completed on the original time table.
     
  19. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm sorry but that rationalization doesn't fly in any other sport, business, or successful organization.

    He hired a new coach. He's already fired one. There isnothing you can tell me that takes acaccountability of Ireland.

    That analogy was brutal btw.

    Ireland built an apartment. It didn't meet expectations and now he's building another one that's failing too. He even had the biggest budget to make it nice and it's still the same mediocre building.
     
  20. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Same guy who has built the worst offensive line in the league, has assembled one of the thinnest teams in the league that is on it's way to another astonishing 8-8 season.
     
  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You sure that's not on the strength & conditioning department?
     
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  22. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Take the good with the bad. You're right.

    At the end of the day, Ireland did some really good, even great acquisitions, for Miami. But if you can't pull off the playoffs in 5 years, you've got to go...assuming they miss.
     
  23. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the offensive line thing is debatable, but I don't see how this is even close to the thinnest rosters.
     
  24. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Careful your not suppose to point out positives.
     
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  25. CantinaJack

    CantinaJack New Member

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    meh, you guys are over thinking it a lil bit. In today's NFL with the rookie salary scales you don't have to rush a guy into a starting position unless you are forced to because the vets are stinkin it up. Let 95 marinate for a year or two, by that time Wake (unfortunetly) will be reaching the end of his career and you just plug in the now ready Jordan.
     
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  26. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    The problem with that, at least in my opinion, is that Jordan is a better OLB than DE. He's just too good in space and coverage, and he can pass rush from either position. I like the 4/3 better than the 3/4, but it seems that a 3/4 defense would allow for more flexibility. That being said, Jordan at OLB would be fine with me, maybe with Misi moving to the middle. I'm not crazy about Wheeler or Ellerbee, but I'd have to take a closer look at both of those guys. We have one LB too many at this point imo, Jordan is an OLB first, DE second.
     
  27. gandalfin

    gandalfin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ireland has always been better at building the roster on the defensive side of the ball than on the offense. Sure, he's hit on some offensive players, but far more few and far between. It would have been pretty hard to pass on Tannehill, unless he was a GM of the most astute kind, and had drafted Wilson instead.
     
  28. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Have you watched all 32 offensive lines? I doubt it.


    But by all means, continue with the ignorance. It's quite entertaining.
     
  29. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    If you can't see the difference between this team and the one that was being built under Parcells and Sparano then I dunno what to tell you.
     
  30. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I want to respect Disgustipate's thread and not get into Ireland anymore. Clearly we disagree here.

    To Disgustipate's original topic, any way we can get all 3 players onto the field, I'm in for.

    I love the 3-4. I always have. I think Wake, Vernon, & Jordan coming off the edges is scary.
     
  31. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Our base defense is essentially a 3-4 already.

    Now back to holding Ireland accountable :shifty:...
     
  32. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    THAT'S ABSURD! He's an immensely talented #3 overall pick defender, not some raw 2nd round QB who could use extra time learning the playbook and better understanding & identifying NFL coverage. When you put Jordan on the sideline it isn't "marinating", it's putting him on the sideline. Only way he's gonna reach his potential is to be on the field, and the more often he's on the field the faster he'll get there. What you're suggesting is to delay Jordan's development, which is ridiculous. FYI, Tannehill started as a rookie and he's further along at this point b/c of it.
     
  33. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Honest question , if he has not had enough years to produce a playoff win , when is that ? Just speaking of being accountable.
     
  34. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I don't view it that way, and based on Ireland being retained in order to build a team for Joe Philbin I don't think the team views it that way either.

    IMO this is year two of a new phase and barring a total disaster three years is pretty much the bare minimum.
     
  35. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We need to accept that it's very likely Ireland gets another year to get the missing pieces. Calling for his ouster is a waste of energy IMO.
     
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  36. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see how you can believe that. I've been one of Ireland's bigger supporters to this point and still think people grossly misunderstand the job he's done, and I'm not sure there are plausible scenarios for him to be retained
     
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  37. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Taking your lead to respond on this, that's my biggest issue. I'm not saying he's nearly as bad as some on here say - although he hasn't done a good enough job IMO. I'm simply saying that at some point, he has to be held accountable.
     
  38. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    I say we put our seven deadliest players out in the base 34 look as follows:

    Wake. Starks. Soliai. Odrick. Jordan
    Misi. Ellerbe.

    And then u can bring Wheeler and Vernon in to sub and spell in passing situations as i dont think Wheeler fits in a 34 look at ILB but Misi certainly could.
     
  39. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Continue to blindly support the GM who has built a mediocre NFL team.

    I have Sunday Ticket, I watch Thursday night football, the games on either before or after the Dolphins on Sunday, Sunday and Monday night football. I probably watch 5-7 games a week, it's a safe bet I've seen every offensive line, at least a few times.
     
  40. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    If they are not the worst offensive line in the league they are in the bottom 5 and we have to find up to 4 new starters for 2014. I don't see this an endorsement of the job Jeff Ireland has done.

    We are one injured receiver away from Marlon Moore being a regular receiver.

    We are one injured running back away from Marcus Thigpen taking regular snaps as a running back.

    We have nothing in the secondary, the amount that Jimmy Wilson plays should tell you this.

    Justin Trusnick plays, regularly.

    We have a thin team and when our defensive tackles walk it's going to be thinner. I don't understand the new found support for Ireland. I want more than year after year of 7-9/8-8.
     

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