Funny thing, Odie was taking heat from me b/c he had so few sacks, this year, he's done fine Baby Squid always produced in some form, which tells me the talent is there, now he has no real good nickname to be had. Good nicknames revolve around a style of play and performance, OV just is the right guy in the right place at the time...there are none to be had in that... OV, lack of protection by design springs to mind...but uhm, yeah...
You'd never get anything near what he's worth to the team. People talking a 1st and a 3rd are high imo. I love Wake as much as anything but I don't think the market for him would be like that at all.
I think if you're considering a move to a true 3-4, the value of having guys like Wake, Jordan, and Vernon on the outside and their natural pass-rush abilities outweighs (by a wide margin) the abilities of Ellerbe and Wheeler to blitz in the middle as we have with the current setup. I think that what you'd need is a solid, run-stuffing LB to play in the middle alongside Dannell Ellerbe. Koa Misi is NOT that guy, despite everyone seemingly wanting him to play inside. Miami needs someone like a Brandon Spikes (free agent) or to draft a guy like Shayne Skov or A.J. Johnson to handle those duties. Ultimately, I think you can end up lopping guys like Philip Wheeler and Koa Misi off the roster. Miami still has enough flexibility on the outside to play Dion Jordan as a strongside OLB to take on TEs, and you can swap Olivier Vernon with him if you want a more "run-heavy" defense. If you're looking at a LB depth chart, this is what you'd have, IMO: Rush - Cameron Wake - Josh Kaddu (off Practice Squad) - Jason Trusnik (Special Teamer) Moe - Dannell Ellerbe - Jelani Jenkins Mike - <Not filled> Sam - Dion Jordan - Olivier Vernon You can have Wake and Jordan/Vernon alternate sides of the formation versus strength, or you can play them on sides a la Pittsburgh as I think all 3 guys have enough prowess against the run to make it hold up. The problem you run into is the DL as you're going to have to make an investment there. I would argue you're going to have to make a big investment there anyway if the defense remains the same as you have Soliai and Starks set to be free agents, and Jared Odrick only has a year left. I don't know if A.J. Francis is a guy you want to be your top interior backup (I know that stings a lot of members). You're going to have to invest in the trenches to make it work. *Edit - Just adding this in. If the above scenario ends up being that way next year, I think you'd have to look at how the 49ers used their OLBs in Aldon Smith's rookie year. Ahmad Brooks was entrenched, and they started Paras Harylson, but replaced him with Smith on 3rd downs pretty much exclusively until late that season. With Miami, I think you'd want to have Wake and Jordan on the field, given Wake's pass-rush abilities and Jordan's abilities to be multi-dimensional with rushing or coverage. You can sprinkle in Olivier Vernon into the base packages when it's a run-heavy situation or just as purely a sub to give guys a rest. But, you can still get all 3 of them on the field in nickel and other sub packages quite a bit. I think this, personally, is more valuable than having guys like Ellerbe and Wheeler playing in the base package we have now and it's why I'd push for the change to the 3-4; you just have to be willing to make the [necessary] investment with respect to the D-line; which you probably end up having to do even without a schematic change.
Vernon has been underrated this year, he's come into his own. But I think he's very much a guy that you have to put at a certain position for the most part. When he was playing RDE like Odrick played it last year, he was getting destroyed. Check out his PFF grades week 1 and 2: Vs. CLV: -4.0 Vs. IND: -5.9 When Wake got hurt, he became the primary edge rusher and his alignment kicked out wider, and they started going with a more traditional line-up where the LDE lined up closer to the ball and more frequently shaded or covered, and the RDE was wide and performed well. Right now OV's grade is +0.1 overall, but when you put into context he's coming from a -9.9 hole he's performed quite well.
ProFootballFocus has put up it's pass rushing productivity stats for this year. The Fins DLine is currently ranked at #4 overall and is the ONLY AFC DLine in the top 5. They have the Fins DL ranked ahead of Carolina and just under the Rams. Cinci is at #7. They also have our LB's at #10. The DB's at #8. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/11/27/pass-rushing-productivity-team-defenses/ Individually: DL- Wake #3, Jordan #19, OV #18 (4-3 only). Odrick #5, Starks #7, Soliai #16 (out of all DT's and NT's). LB- Wheeler #3, Misi #30 (4-3), Ellerbe #20 (all). DB- Jones #7, Clemons #51 . Carroll #63, Grimes #85 (all).
EDIT: These are pass rushing productivity rankings for this season only. Overall, Soliai has been a huge disappointment this season. He hasn't been the same guy since the knee injury in the Colts game. Same with Misi, who has been oft injured and missed a lot of plays. Ellerbe has been a puzzle. He missed some time to injury, but has struggled. Wheeler is one of the league leaders in missed tackles. Jones has seemed lost. I thought Clemons and Grimes both were much better that those rankings.
I think we have the edge guys for a 3-4 but we'd suck on the inside. Soliai and Starks are FA, Ellerbe and Wheeler aren't the down hill LBs I thought they'd be. Considering the amount of nickel that's required these days I think sticking with the 4-3 is the right move.
The problem with converting is what Miami might not have, depending on what happens with Soliai and Starks up the middle. You're going to need a NT if Soliai doesn't come back, and you're going to need at least one or two more guys who can play 3, 4, and 5 techniques. You have Odrick and...Starks if he comes back and that's it. As far as nickel goes, I don't think that matters. I think you'd end up seeing a 3 man line of Vernon, Odrick/Starks, and Wake with Jordan, Jenkins, and Ellerbe playing the LB spots. That lineup can be executed from either base package. For example, say you sign Brandon Spikes (highly unlikely, but I think he's the #1 rated 3-4ILB by PFF against the run), you'd take him off on passing downs and bring in Jenkins. You'd also be taking off the nose, which Miami does a lot now anyways, and depending on whether you wanted to have two bigger guys up front (like San Francisco) you can plug in Vernon or have guys like Odrick and Starks play. Speaking of San Francisco, Demarcus Dobbs could be an interesting, cheap free agent signing. He was originally an oversized TE with them and played special teams, but they've made him into a sub-package lineman (why you're always puzzled to see #83 on defense with them). They run a 2-4-5 nickel because their LBs are so damn good, but Dobbs comes in to spell Ray McDonald and rush with Justin Smith. He's become quite good at it, and I think if you're moving to that type of defense he's a good, low cost, high value signing. Other guys I think you can target that aren't going to break the bank would be Aubrayo Franklin, Brandon Deaderick, Colin Cole, and maybe Terrence Cody (I'd be hesitant on this). The first 3 all have a history of signing one year deals, which could be beneficial, especially if you're drafting guys that you're unsure will be immediate contributors. For instance, if you draft a Louis Nix, I want a vet as well for insurance purposes.
wow thats a very quiet 7.5 sacks.. i didnt even notice he already had that many sacks. i thought he would have 3 or 4. Good for him!
There have been a few guys I've been pleasantly surprised by. Carroll and Clemons are the two main ones. Carroll especially. He's having a nice year. Vernon and Odrick don't surprise me. I've always felt they had the ability to turn into really good players.
lol...me too, for me the hunger and passion seemingly gets stronger unlike some who say their over this bull rap lol....I think it's the quest bro, we'll get it right at some point, it's gonna take the right GM and coach..and very tough football players, I don't think you should be building a finesse team in this town, I think you need the opposite..
Vernon is a ****ing MONSTER! 2.5 sacks and 10 tackles today. He was all over the field. He now has 10 sacks so far this year. TEN! I love this guy. Maximum effort every single snap. Just keeps going. Probably my favorite player on the team. I believed in him when barely anyone else did. Proud of this dude!
vernon is quickly climbing into my top 3 or 4 players on this team, the guy never quits and puts it all on the field. i really do like the baby squid nickname
He's not the Kraken yet, to reach that sort of mythical sea monster level you have to make game winning plays. Still..4 games left
We sacrificed run defense for better pass coverage and blitzing ability when we swapped out at 2 LB spots. Ellerbe is better in coverage than either Dansby or Burnett, and Wheeler is better at blitzing.
He's a real good pass rusher for someone you could tell wasn't going to be a good pass rusher 15 minutes into his professional career.
I completely disagree. That is the best spot to play Jordan, so one can utilize his entire skill set.
OV having a successful year is a big plus for Ireland. That was a direct Ireland pick. Having the 13th ranked D is a credit to him, but having one of the leagues worst offenses, especially with the focus on O this year, makes the argument to retain him as GM pretty en defenseable. I think moving on from Sherman and Ireland would be the best moves we could make in the off season.
That's where Wake currently plays, and earlier in the thread you were advocating replacing Wake with Jordan and trading him for OL help.
The team I think could very much be managing the Vernon, Wake, and Jordan situation better than they have. Not giving Jordan reps at the OLB position was dumb, because that's a really easy way to get him on the field and while he might not be a better guy on playing the edge vs. runs than Misi, he's a better coverage guy and pass rusher, and I'm a little suspicious that he wouldn't be better lined up off the line of scrimmage too. I'm not a big fan of "NASCAR" packages, especially in the Dolphins circumstances, but I think they could very much be doing this better.
I think it's also worth mentioning that Olivier Vernon is tied for #6 in the league in sacks. No, the coach does with rare exceptions.
Not bad for a 3rd round draft pick. He's now up to 10 total sacks after yestedays dominating performance. If Ellerbe, Wheeler and Jones can step up their games, this defense has all the tools to be very bada##.
No, I do not advocate trading Wake, suspect Ireland will trade him Thought Wake plays De on the weakside next to Starks and OV plays strongside next to Odie/Soliai
I think OV has a solid chance of NFC defensive player of the week with his last outing. Did anyone else in the conference have a monster day? Edit: meant to say AFC obviously
He's certainly progressing nicely. Must be the PEDs....... I believe we also used him at DT yesterday against the Jets in obv passing downs. Don't recall that we did that before? Him and Jordan teamed up on a sack in the second half with OV coming from the inside.
