With so much info (and misinformation) people are getting lost and misunderstanding things, missing things or forgetting things. So let's recap. The racist voice mails STATUS: Debunked Though the voice mails happened, they were by all appearances a joke. The actual voice mails weren't released so they could be edited. They were edited. Things were left off. For example Armando says one of them was ended with Ritchie in a calm tone, "Ok, call me back". Martin did in fact call him back as well. Martin passed the voice mails around the locker room while he and everyone else laughed at them. Its also pretty likely that's why he saved them, because everyone thought they were funny. Martin very clearly was not adversely affected by these voice mails and Ritchie very clearly was only joking around. Were his jokes in poor taste? Sure. Were they real threats? No, not even close. The Vegas Trip Money STATUS: Debunked Murtha, in his article completely debunks the extortion angle to this. It was trip they all agreed on and booked. When it came time to pay, Martin backed out. Ireland telling Martin to Punch Incognito STATUS: Debunked Ireland may have said it, but its debunked because it happened AFTER Martin left the team. Martin's Camp was trying to make this sound like it was Ireland admitting Cogs was bullying him and as an official of the team telling him to handle it himself with violence instead of going through proper channels. That obviously is not the case. It was also implying that if this happened before he left, then Philbin knew about Martin being "bullyed". Philbin said he knew nothing about any of this STATUS: Debunked Philbin never said that. He said Martin never told him or let on that he had a problem with Cogs. Big difference. Philbin probably knew of all the stuff, the trip, the ongoing cafeteria pranks, the hair dyeing, etc. But unless martin lets Philbin, or anyone else know, that he had a problem with those things, then why would Philbin consider that bullying instead of pranking? By all accounts of coaches and players, Martin never let on that he had a problem with Cogs. In fact, by all outward appearances, everyone thought they were close friends. Martin sent texts to Cogs saying he didn't blame him or anyone else STATUS: True This is one many forget. The day after the game, I believe, there was an article talking about the texts. A reporter saw the texts and said that they were kind in nature form both guys and Martin said he didn't blame Cogs for anything. Coaches ordered Cogs to toughen up Martin STATUS: Not confirmed, but probable. I think the main question, is what coach called for it. I think the most likely candidate is Turner. This is not the same thing as a "code red". This wasn't about retribution or teaching a guy to shut up and mind his business, this was about helping a player have the correct mindset to play the position at his highest level. Coaches owe that to their players and to their teams. It worked for Egnew. I don't think they wanted to Cogs to use the words he did in the VMs and there's no indication that they did. ***UPDATE #1:*** The team went all mutiny on Philbin and spoke their peace to the press STATUS: Debunked Complete BS. Philbin told the guys to speak their minds. This was confirmed by numerous sources form Jess Agler to Brian Hartline. Armando has just become more wrong than Omar Kelly. That's more pathetic than being pancaked by Martin. ***UPDATE #2:*** Martin met with Ireland and Ireland told him to punch Incognito. Oh, and Eric Adelson is a responsible journalist. STATUS: Debunked Excerpt from his digital toilet paper: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--dolphins-ready-to-flaunt-dangerous-attitude-as-team-deals-with-martin-incognito-bullying-case-213806084.html Obviously, Martin didn't meet with Ireland. It was an associate of Martin's agent that called Ireland. Martin met with Philbin...6 months ago and did not discuss Incognito or any other player. He only discussed is own wavering commitment to football. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basically, we're at a point were its pretty hard to defend Martin's actions and keep blasting the coaches and the franchise over these specific events. More info may come though, but for right now, its safe to say this has been waaaaaaaaaay overblown. This whole thing has really been an indictment of the media and Martin.
What about the story where Cogs drowned Martin's puppy and made him watch while Pouncey shaved off all of Martin's pubes with a rusty machete? This is what sources tell me. See? I can be mainstream media, too
You mean the media started a self feeding frenzy again? Say it ain't so. Not like we don't see that evvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrry offseason or anything.
The only caveat may be that Martin could have been "adversely affected" by the voicemails, but just didn't admit it and played along. I tend to agree with you that it probably wasn't a big deal at the time. IMO, it's fairly simple, Martin was bothered by the hazing, probably more than most young NFL players given his sensitivity, but it was much more easily tolerated when he was a starting member of the Oline. When he was demoted, it was more than his sensitive personality could handle and it broke him.
If only there people, on this very board, saying that from the moment this turned into an oddity story to all of sudden Cogs being accused of bullying.
If someone is offended but they do everything in their power to hide it, then its their fault things didn't get better. Its like when a woman fakes orgasms then complains the man never satisfies her. Its why my wife watches TV when we have sex....she doesn't have to fake it and I don't have to pretend I care.
When Salguero was on Mike and Mike this morning, he was very hesitant when asked about the coaches ordering Incognito to toughen up Martin. He refused to even say Omar's name (hah) and instead pointed out that only Omar Kelly has reported that angle and he himself does not think it has much weight.
You mean you haven't tried that thing with the syrup, gardening gloves, pear and dog-collar I suggested? Why do I even bother giving you advice?
Unless the coaches specifically told Incognito to hurt him physically or mentally, I sincerely don't see a problem if they did tell him to toughen him up. i guarantee you Egnew appreciates that the coaches and teammates wanted him toughened up too.
I would think the demotion back to right tackle and the perception he might not be there after the season (really hurting his salary) with the timing of the Vegas trip was a lot to handle. The prank just sent him over the edge.
Fin D, The Ireland punch comment was after Martin left? I was under the assumption Martin's rep called Ireland on this the day before Martin left because of the cafeteria prank. At least that's the last I have read other than what you posted. Sharing the same sentiments of another poster, please keep this thread updated! Thanks!
The problem is team character assination, wherever any dolphin goes, their going to be profiled being one of the bully's or racists, all because that's what they media put out there for the masses to form their opinion out of,..it's BS, and this team should make them pay by sharpening their focus and execution, it's a unique way to make them look stupid..and start getting back their rep.. Our players, no one else..I root for them..
I'm not sure how you can say this is "debunked." The voice mails exist, were sent by Incognito and received by Martin. What we can debate is the impact those texts had on Martin. The picture those close to Martin have painted is one of a person who is socially awkward and may have a mental condition. The kid probably felt that he had to go along with the teasing and the pranks in order to fit in. I saw you say that it's his fault if he didn't show signs that it was bothering him but we all know that had he shown weakness the harassment would have only gotten worse. He may have passed the voicemail around the lockeroom, but how much did he feel compelled to pass it around? And was the rest of the team laughing with him or at him? That's the real question that needs to addressed here. I find it highly unlikely that he would save these voicemails and target Incognito in this if they didn't truly bother him. There are a lot more financially viable targets than Richie Incognito. This could very easily be explained by what Murtha wrote in his article. And if it's true it only serves to further illustrate that the kid did have some social and interpersonal issues. However, Lydon Murtha, for a person who starts his article off saying he has no dog in this fight and only wants to speak the truth who them proceeds to use a lot of second hand accounts from former teammates rather than what he saw for himself as proof. As such I don't really trust that article. Again, I'm not sure what your definition of debunked is. This actually happened. Our GM said that an employee should attack another employee. The man in charge of personnel for a million dollar business is promoting interoffice violence which could leave his corporation culpable. And while it may not prove in any way that Martin was bullied or that Philbin was aware of it, it does illustrate that Jeff Ireland doesn't have a ****ing clue and that there is a overarching need to replace the management staff. This is true as far as we know. The only issue is that we don't know what was discussed in the meeting that Philbin and Martin had prior to all of this going down. The other entries I have no comments on.
For the most part, I agree with most of your points Fin. The media will always paint a situation like this to look much worse than it actually is. There is a ton of misinformation out there. That being said, this is still an awful situation and it reflects very poorly on the entire organization. As fans we can defend the players, coaches, and even the FO but in the end the NFL is going to find out what they are going to find out and I imagine they will come down hard. And unfortunately the court of public opinion will play a part.
Its weird you ask me how can I say it, after I very clearly explain it. The simple fact of the matter was that the VMs were portrayed as racist and violent threats. That has been debunked because they are neither. Martin's mental state has no bearing on what someone else's intent was with the VMs. There's no evidence that supports the rest of your theory. ALL of the evidence indicates that not only was it not meant serious but that Martin didn't take it serious either. Your stance is based on nothing more than the word of Martin's camp, who have actually edited the VMs in question to make them appear worse. Even if you are right, that still doesn't place the responsibility on anyone else, other than Martin. Otherwise, its your contention that we must be able to read minds if we are going to be in social settings as that would the only logical conclusion of what you're saying. But you trust every other article from all these reporters whose accounts are not even based in first hand knowledge? interesting. Again, I say that it actually happened then go on to explain pretty clearly why its debunked. Actually, come to think of it, do we know it happened or is this the second hand information that is acceptable instead of the second hand info that isn't. After all, the person that said it happened has a way bigger dog in the fight than Murtha did. I genuinely don't understand how you decide what is or is not accepted as true. case in point, we have MORE evidence that Martin and Philbin met, then we do that a coach ordered Cogs to toughen up Martin. Both Martin and Philbin have confirmed that meeting took place. All the parties involved in the toughening up discussion have not confirmed anything.
Saying it reflects very poorly on the organization is a self fulfilling prophecy. The team so far, has done nothing wrong. There was a rogue element that did something ****ty. That's not the team's fault. If we want perception to change, then it starts with not accepting that no matter what this is bad. It starts with us refuting it with facts and logic.
Its not a matter of what secomd hand information is allowed and what isnt. Reporters don't report stories as first hand accounts that they have intate knowledge of. Lyndon murtha passed off his nonsense as a first hand account using second hand information which invalidates his entire article. Its a pretty simple concept
Except, sadly, in this ***ty, "newsflash!", 1-second story world....perception is changed by those who have the loudest voice, biggest boobs and the most airtime. Logic and facts are stuffed in the trunk.
The bolded part is where we disagree. Clearly there is at least some level of wrongdoing, or at the very least gross negligence on the part of the team here. The truth is probably not as bad as the media will lead us to believe but the media isn't just inventing something out of nothing here. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle and the NFL investigation will hopefully find that out.
You're exaggerating. He does have first hand knowledge of plenty. He has first hand knowledge of Cogs and Martin's characters. He has first hand knowledge of the way the Vegas trips work. He has first hand knowledge of the locker room dynamic. His words should and do carry considerably more weight then effing Mike Florio who you are touting as the truth bringer in this.
Which is why I'm saying we need to shout this pretty loud\ instead of just lamenting "its an embarrassment".
Could be as innocent as Joe Philbin and Jeff Ireland not knowing this **** storm was brewing. Or if they actually had anything to do with Incognito's actions towards Martin - which you acknowledge is a possibility - that is wrong doing. We can debate how wrong, but it's wrong.
None of that is wrong. - If martin is hiding the fact he's upset with anyone form the coaches and players, how can it be wrong doing on their part for not reading his mind? - There is nothing wrong with trying to make a player more mentally tough.
Agree to disagree. Like I said I agree with a lot of the points you are trying to make but I can't buy the fact that the team did nothing wrong. A coach who has a pulse on his team sees this coming to some degree. And if Martin is this type of character, there's a real problem that he's on this team to begin with. Not only on the team, but in a starting role at a crucial position.
True. And,if the Dolphins are wrong then I`m confident in saying so are all the other teams in this league. I can only imagine what goes on in NFL locker rooms among the players. Good natured ribbing, ball busting....its the nature of the beast. If Martin never walked out we wouldnt be hearing about it with our team either.
Public figures have a higher burden of proof in defamation cases In Florida, the offense of criminal libel still exists. Whereas defamation is generally a civil matter, Florida law recognizes some types of libel as criminal offenses. Knowingly sending libelous information to a journalist, for example, is a crime, as is the malicious spreading of false statements or even rumors . If you think you have been defamed by a newspaper, magazine, radio or television station, you must make a demand for retraction before a lawsuit can be filed. If the newspaper, magazine, radio or television station publishes a retraction, you can still file suit, but your damages may be limited. Unless the media defendant acted with malice, bad faith or reckless disregard for the truth or falsity of the story, you can only recover your actual damages. No punitive damages can be assessed in the absence of these elements
Considering all the players on the team agree with Cogs and not Martin, I'd say that cements the fact Philbin DID have his finger on the pulse. Seriously, if Martin is hiding how he feels how is it reasonable to blame anyone else?
