Greg Cote: Dolphins’ flaw was evident from the start

You're picking nits here! The o-line is bad. It isn't due to "bad luck" of Clabo sucking. Martin is terrible too and never should have been moved to LT. We should never have been in the position where 3 of our o-linemen are terrible. They didn't address o-line depth. The o-line is a long-term project. Just because you can justify 2013 offseason non-moves does not absolve Ireland from blame.

 

I don't think it's that cut and dry. I'm not saying this is the case, but is it possible that the Dolphins have some solid players in place and they're just not producing because of coaching? Certainly Ireland deserves his share of blame for this line being a constant issue in his time here. But you don't judge a GM solely on how he builds one position. You judge him on how he builds an entire team. Right now the entire team he has built doesn't look too bad. As the season goes on we will see for sure, and if this team struggles down the stretch, Ireland will be fired and rightfully so. If they win 9 or more games and Tannehill continues to progress along with some of the other players brought in, he deserves a little bit of praise.

 

I agree with you. Excellent post. However, our o-line is horrendous. At some point the "bad apple" does indeed spoil the whole bunch.

 

Scheme matters. The guys they were bringing in 4 years ago were prized for size and strength while the new scheme demands mobility. Guys like Pouncey that can play in both schemes are rare.

 

Lucy?????

 

I would think you would agree that it wouldn't be reasonable to the think the line could get much worse, right? I think you would also agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to think the offensive line could get marginally better (to the point where they are merely below average and not horrendous - as you put it).

So with that said, how do you feel that even with a horrendous OL we are averaging 22.8 ppg (good for 16th) as opposed to the 18.0 ppg we scored last year (27th)? Do you believe that the OL if left unchanged will drive our ppg back down towards last year's average? I certainly don't expect our average to go down much if the OL remains the same (I expect them to improve as the year goes for the record, though I am not expecting pts to change for certain, I just hope it improves too).

 

That entirely disregards scheme change, which any objective fan would understand. As you can see by this year's crop of highly drafted tackles and many before them, offensive linemen often need a couple years to develop, as guys like Long & Pouncey are rarities in that regard. Jon Martin & Dallas Thomas were drafted to be solutions to the Oline, however they're young and still developing so unfortunately if they are the solution it won't necessarily show up immediately. The interior of our Oline wasn't a liability last year; we mainly had issues on the edge, but the coaching staff and everyone involved felt good enough about Martin's future on the left side to not ditch him after only his rookie year, and I don't recall seeing any backlash from posters or the media about Clabo at the time of his signing. Sh-t just fell apart.... and like Rafael stated, some of it probably has to do with changing schemes.

 

BTW, if the Dolphins' flaw was "evident from the start" then where is Cote's article stating the Clabo signing is a big mistake? Did anyone here post after Clabo's signing that he would become a liability? I don't recall reading anything.

 

To me, I'm hoping this all goes up on the cork board for the OL. If they are truly going to keep the same 5 this season, motivate them!

 

Jesus, Monst....I love you bro, but what are you adding by doing the MODs job for them with posts like this? You're adding fuel to the fire because you're against the theme of the responses....how is that any different? You're the first person to jump up and whine when someone blasts an Ireland basher....your agenda is so bright we have to wear sunglasses to read your posts.

 

The Clabo signing looked like a slam dunk. He was a perennial top 10 T and although he was coming from a man scheme had experience in a zone scheme. He seemed mobile enough to transition back. He was signed to a low risk, one year contract. In fact, the main criticism at the time was that we should have brought him in on a longer deal.

 

Correct you are.

 

Not to mention teams make private trades to other teams all the time.

No one talked about Monroe being on the block, it could have been a private deal set by the Ravens and the Jaguars. The Jaguars may have owed them one or the Ravens will owe them one in the future. Sort of like the Santonio Holmes deal between Pitt and NY, pretty sure lots of teams would have gladly thrown a fifth round pick to Pittsburgh OR BETTER, but there's always a strategy behind this, they want to make sure the player they trade away doesn't end up going to a rival team after one season and that the team receiving the player sees the player as a long term option, and many other things.

I would have gladly given up a 4th round pick to Oakland for Moss if made available to Miami, a 5th round pick for Boldin if made available to Miami, and etc etc.

 

The "Jeff Ireland has had X years to fix the offensive line" argument has a major flaw to me. You can fix the offensive line but in today's NFL nothing stays fixed indefinitely. Some of the offensive lines Miami had particularly in 2008 and 2009 were far better than we see right now. Every position is going to have ups and downs from year to year. One year a position is great, two years later it may be cyclically in the dumps, etc. It's just not an effective line of argument, to me.

On the other hand most people criticize as the major flaw in that argument the fact that Jeff Ireland has REALLY only been in charge since 2011 or whatever year has become convenient to say so.

Nowadays for whatever reason, it almost seems that the people that back this theory pretty much believe they've won the argument. Like it's not even a thing anymore. Like if someone brings it up, it's "Oh you're still on about that? That was proven a long time ago." Nothing material has changed as far as the evidence or logic presented on either side of the debate, though.

To me, it was nonsense years ago to insist Ireland had nothing to do with 2008 through 2010, and it's nonsense to me today. Jeff Ireland has been the General Manager of the Miami Dolphins with final say authority written into his contract since he signed in 2008. Did he have a boss? Yes. Every GM has a boss whose opinion they must take into account when making personnel moves. For most General Managers, that boss is an owner. For him, it was a Team President who had the power to fire him should he wish. But the fact of the matter is Jeff Ireland's signature had to be on every single move and I doubt he just sat in a corner office the whole time twiddling his thumbs without doing any work until Parcells finally left.

It's still incredibly lame to me that people are trying to pretend he had nothing to do with what happened from 2008 to 2010. And it's also highly hypocritical of people who espouse that line of reasoning to turn around and try and sneak credit through the back door to him for players like Cameron Wake, Randy Starks, Richie Incognito, Jared Odrick, Koa Misi, Reshad Jones, Chris Clemons, Brian Hartline, Nolan Carroll, etc.

Hell I consider it to be more likely detrimental to his case as a GM to short change Jeff Ireland by not giving him credit for the 2008, 2009 and 2010 off seasons. Without those, what high-performance players has he put on this roster?

Exclude those years and you've got:

QB Ryan Tannehill
QB Matt Moore
QB Pat Devlin
RB Lamar Miller
RB Daniel Thomas
RB Mike Gillislee
RB Marcus Thigpen
WR Mike Wallace
WR Brandon Gibson
WR Rishard Matthews
TE Charles Clay
TE Michael Egnew
TE Dion Sims
LT Jonathan Martin
OC Mike Pouncey
RT Tyson Clabo
OL Dallas Thomas
OL Will Yeatman
OL Danny Watkins
DE Dion Jordan
DE Olivier Vernon
DE Derrick Shelby
DT Marvin Austin
LB Phil Wheeler
LB Dannell Ellerbe
LB Jonathan Freeny
LB Jelani Jenkins
LB Josh Kaddu
CB Brent Grimes
CB Dimitri Patterson
CB Jimmy Wilson
CB Will Davis
CB Jamar Taylor
CB R.J. Stanford
S Jordan Kovacs
S Don Jones
PK Caleb Sturgis

That...is impressive? I think Brent Grimes and Mike Pouncey are the only real feathers in the cap on that bunch. We have hope about Ryan Tannehill and Dion Jordan of course, but it hasn't translated yet.

 

Detrimental or not to his perception, although I don't know how much say Ireland had, I think you have to give him credit/blame for anything from 2008-1010 because we actually do not know with certainty what was/wasn't his call.

As you lay it out, it looks like it helps his case.

 

It's year three for me, he had autonomy the year before Philbin got here...were 3 and 2 at the bye, if the team improves it's record this year, with it's cap space going into next year, I'd give him another year, if not then rip up the contract.

 

Well like I said I expect pretty soon those people that want him gone may embrace the idea that he gets no credit or blame for 2008 to 2010 because those players are the source of our being a winning team right now.

The players on the roster that he acquired during the period where people do not dispute his role as the head personnel chief, they're largely levered toward new acquisitions that are for the most part disappointing.

 

I haven't heard anybody claim that Ireland did nothing from 2008 - 2010. It seems pretty clear that he had few areas he had nearly unrestrained control over and many areas he didn't. He was obviously in charge of the UDFAs. So I feel comfortable that Wake and Bess were Ireland finds. Everything else is muddier. Parcells clearly made the final decision on the first overall pick and was the driving force behind the Dansby signing. I had contacts from back when Huizenga was still more significantly involved that were adamant that Ireland wanted Ryan over Long. Publicly it was a joint decision but privately it was Parcells' choice. The rest of the drafts before Parcells left are a mixed bag. Who gets credit for Reshad Jones? I've never credited Ireland with that one b/c I don't have any info one way or the other. But I heard Pat White was Parcells' project and a Parcells pick. We know Parcells removed players from Ireland's board and we know that Parcells made a few picks each year. We just don't know which ones. I heard Jimmy Graham was at the top of Miami's TE board, but that Parcells didn't believe in taking a TE that early. Did Ireland agree or would he have taken Graham in the 3rd? I have no idea so I'm not going to blame Ireland for that miss. As for the big FAs while Parcells was here, I'm sure Ireland provided his opinion, but we have no idea if it was heeded or ignored. Realistically, there were probably some Ireland would have signed/pursued/passed on with full control. But we don't know which ones those were. The argument is not that Ireland did nothing, but rather that we don't have enough info to know what he did or would have done differently.

 

The fundamental problem with your argument is that you are still operating from the incorrect premise. You think most of us that have argued in the past are Ireland lovers, therefore you think you've constructed a "gotcha" with this argument.

The simple issue, that you and all the others need to finally come to grips with, is that we aren't arguing to defend Ireland, we are arguing simply because its disingenuous to blame him for the time Parcells was here.

 

It doesn't take a member of the media writing an article to know that Ireland doesn't have a clue how to build a winning NFL football team. All we have to do is look at the six years he has been here to see that quite clearly.

 

If wanting this board to be less toxic is an agenda, then yeah I have an agenda. And can you say with a straight face that pro Ireland members agenda is any less obvious? Say what you will about Lb, I don't know him very well and I know he is vocal about Jeff Ireland, but regardless whether I agree with everything he has said or not I have noticed that at least lately he is nowhere near as disrespectful to people as many members here are to him. It's impossible to have a negative view of Jeff Ireland or any other aspect of this team without getting labeled as a troll or other nonsense. I wonder how many of you just consider me an anti Ireland guy and have no clue that I'm also very homerish and optimistic about several other aspects on this team? Probably most. But once you get that Scarlett letter of being an "anti-Ireland" guy it's all over. And I'm not trying to do the mods job for them I'm only pointing out why i personally find this board to be a pretty toxic place lately. I'm sure the mods don't care because I see some of them encouraging a lot of the very behavior I'm talking about. So carry on I know nothing will change.

 

How about we let this year play out completely before closing the book on his ability to build a winning team.

 

I can't buy your argument. Ireland was hired by Parcells because Parcells wanted his so called expertise in talent evaluation. Parcells made Ireland the teams GM and now we are suppose to believe that he did nothing but what he was told to do by Parcells while Parcells was with the organization. So basically he gets a bye for those first three years when he was the GM of the Dolphins by those people who think he was nothing but a yes man for Parcells.

If that is true, that is even more reason to get rid of him. That means he just did nothing while this team when from an 11-5 team in 2008 to a below average team while Parcells was still with the Dolphins. Obviusly Parcells didn't think Ireland did a very good job in talent evaluation as the teams GM and that is why Parcells obviously decided to leave the organization.

I think his final slap at the organization was leaving behind Sparano and Ireland. Sparano quickly showed he wasn't the right man for the job and Ross for some reason has blinders on when it comes to Ireland. I guess when you have an owner who is more concerned with getting public money to renovate his stadium, instead of putting a winning product on the field, you end up with a below average GM like Ireland.

When I was in college many years ago, I was in a class where we used to discuss the mysteries of life. If I was in that class today, I am sure we would be discussing one of the greatest mysteries of today. That being, how the heck has Ireland been able to hold on to the GM job of the Dolphins after being so bad for the past five years?

 

I wonder what kind of threads we will have after we beat the Bills and Patriots.

 

You can't buy my argument that Ireland should get credit/blame for everything since 2008? Because the rest of what you posted sure seems like you do.

 

given your panache for rhetoric about ireland, as well as those you defend, I'm going to say that's not true. The over the top rhetoric and constant hate do nothing to make this board less toxic.

 

Agreed. If the bad apple spoils the bunch, in this case, it would mean that our line prevents this team from a winning season. If that happens, Ireland will be gone. If they can overcome a poor line, or the line gets better with time, then his "failure to fix the line" will not bring him down this year IMO.

I have mentioned this in other threads, and I'll bring it up here as well. While Ireland surely deserves his share of the blame for building a poor line, he should not be the only one to get heat. Both head coaches in Ireland's tenure have offensive line backgrounds. They both had different ideas about what the line should look like, but common sense would lead you to believe that having "offensive line guys" at HC should help you to have a good line. With the exception of maybe one year under Sparano, that hasn't been the case. Let's not forget that position coaches play a role in scouting. Many times these guys will bang the table for a guy they like to be brought in. Certainly, if your HC is an offensive line guy it's reasonable to assume they will be heavily involved in the personnel moves at that position along with your actual line coach. Because of that, they should share some of the blame for the personnel the Dolphins currently have on the OL. And that's not even getting into the part about developing them.

 

Kind of funny considering at the moment, the team has a winning record.

 

This is dumb. I already said I don't mind negative articles. They need to make sense, though.

For example, suggesting Levi Brown was an upgrade is foolish. He's not an upgrade over Martin.

 

I sincerely apologize. I went back and read your comments and I was too quick to assume you were defending Ireland for his years under Parcells. I guess I am so used to all the people that want to exclude those first three years with Parcells. I assumed that was the direction you were going with your comments without me taking the time to read your entire response. We all know what happens when you assume. I was wrong and I assure you that in the future I will make sure I read your entire reply before responding. Once again, I apologize.

 

There's no evidence for any of this. It's just all a bunch of hearsay.

 

EXACTLY.

Newsflash: There are no "Ireland Lovers" on this board.

There are people who love to bash Ireland and then there's everyone else. The myth of the "Ireland lover" is 100% craptastic bulls#@!. There was a 3-0 start to the season, where are the Pro- Ireland threads? Somebody name the posters who are obnoxiously jumping into any and every thread to bring up how Ireland did this or deserves credit for that.

I'll wait.

Meanwhile I can show you Ireland sucks thread galore. He sucks b/c he's an *** and no coaches (like Jeff Fisher) or players (like Matt Flynn) want to sign here. Threads about how he sucks b/c he's spending $$$ to save his ***. He ignored the WR position, doesn't know how to bring in play makers, is too conservative in the draft, all he does is take Olinemen. Now he sucks b/c he "ignored" the OL.

It's comical.

 

To follow up on what Rafael and Todd were stating - If you look at what Ireland has done since being here, you have to agree, or begrudingly concede, that he has constantly adjusted to coaches player demands, and constantly been under fan and media duress. He inherited a team that was worst in the league in 2007 from the FO, to the coaches, to the players. He was brought in by VPO/Czar Parcells and responsible for procuring players to fit with with what Parcells, and Parcell's cronies of Sparano, Hennings and Pasqualoni, wanted for both defense and offense style players, with Parcells having final say on all football matters, and with the coaching staff answering to Parcells, not him.

So Ireland procured bigger, stronger, slower guys who fit with the Parcells edict of "bigger is better".
Following that, he was tasked with procuring players to fit with schemes of Sparano's Coaches, Brian Daboll and Mike Nolan. Different schemes and player styles.
Now, once again, he is procuring players under Philbin's tenure for coaches Mike Sherman and Kevin Coyles. Once again, different coaching style and schemes, as well as different type of player, as well as having to deal with jettisoning the players that Philbin's staff no longer wants from the previous regime.

To say that an offensive player that was drafted under Sparano's tenure with Hennings/Daboll and Paqs/Nolan isn't a good fit under Philbin is fair, but I don't know that it is fair to insist that Ireland is a bad GM overall when there has been this much turmoil and upheaval directly attributable to Parcell's initial coaching hirings and team blueprint.

Anytime you have that much philosophy and scheme change, you're going to have players fail in new systems , simply because as a team, once you commit several years to procuring specific types of players, it takes several more years to go in a different direction and change out the players. Daniel Thomas and John Jerry are example's of this. They are obviously not good fits for this offense.

As for the current OLine, it's still too early to write off Martin. He's been the LT for 8 games, 5 this season. He's been up and down, but has improved. The times he has looked his worst has been against better players along the lines of Aldon Smith and Terrell Suggs. Cogs and Pouncey are fine, but both have made their mistakes as well. That ridiculous shotgun snap from Pouncey cost us a drive and potential scoring opportunity in the Ravens game for instance...

The true issues are on the right side. Jerry at RG has regressed from last season. Maybe due to the injury and delay getting ready for the season, but whatever, he is still a detriment. He was a Parcells/Sparano type olineman who now needs to be a backup or traded. They did make an effort to replace him. It just sucks that it didn't pan out, but it still clearly shows that they were aware that there was an issue there. Based off his body of work, Clabo appeared as an upgrade. Again, it sucks that he has played so poorly. The other contributing factor is that the backs and TE's have done a poor job of blocking as well.

The good news is that we have faced the toughest stretch of the season and came out 3-2. The bad news is that we're still stuck with these same guys on the right side of the OLine. The hopeful news is that we have two weeks to get healthy, recoup, and adjust the protection prior to starting division play. Hopefully we'll have an elevated level of play going forward and that the Bye afforded the entire team a chance to restore physically and mentally.