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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bpk, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm worried about both things as well, but we have yet to move the pocket and this is a Tannehill strength..we have kept that away from him thus far this preseason.not once in four quarters of play, shoot, the texans did it 6 times I believe.
     
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  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    To be fair, this preseason, our offense and pass protection packages have been pretty vanilla. Pretty much block the guy in front of you type stuff, for the most part.

    I think this staff has a philosophy on the preseason and that philosophy is that the preseason is for displays of individual play and fundamentals. Its all execution of skills not execution of plays.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think I would move on from Nolan Carroll, I gurpess were stuck with Wilson and McCray.

    Marshall better step up and pay tighter, if he's worried about getting beat, than lets to with Patterson.
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Stevie Johnson is NOT spectacular? Because I think he is.
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When he describes other teams in the afc east he uses superlatives to the extreme and positivity so sweet I get a fu&$in cavity listening to it, if they don't have a dolphin at the end of the sentence, the bias is always there even when talking about other teams..

    " Absolutely spectacular" is reserved for very few if your gonna desrcibe ones game with it...Steve smith is "absolutely spectacular.."
     
  6. STColeridge

    STColeridge Banned

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    Fair points. Hope thats the case.
     
  7. STColeridge

    STColeridge Banned

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    Perhaps...and if thats the case, then we'll have to go on faith that we'll be able to execute those things we didn't work ion in PS games.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Personally, I don't see the advantage of testing plays in preseason. We run a large amount of 11 on 11s and 7 on 7s in camp, against a defense that knows what the plays are. To me that decreases the margin of error the play has for being successful. While using those plays in the preseason against very often poorer mix and matched talent, tells you nothing about the play but gives tape of it to opponents.....unless its a play meant to scare teams later.
     
  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    College doesn't do it..

    However, we still looked like crap a lot thus far, especially 2nd and third stringers, and starting oline and Lamar miller..

    The positive is, I don't feel Tannehill has played all that well, and yet he's posting real good numbers..0 ints..60%..2tds..110 qbr I believe..

    All this without gameplanning, and with a sieve for a line, and not much help from the run game.
     
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  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    One Up Arrow that I can't remember if I put down was Ryan Tannehill.

    He was superb in the Texans game. That was the first outing this preseason where I really felt like he was beginning to earn his keep as the franchise starter. He was "ok" in the Jaguars game, some encouraging things, some things that weren't necessarily his fault, but his performance relied upon a superlative play to Dustin Keller in order to outweigh a lot of the bad. Against the Texans, he was much better.

    Prior to the Texans game I had him getting the football out of his hands in 2.5 seconds or less only 9 out of 19 times, possibly fewer than that as some stopwatches will vary. Against the Texans, he got the ball out quickly on 14 of 19 tries.

    Why is this important? Though it's true that some of your biggest plays can come when you extend the play and wait for guys to get open, league-wide efficiency when you're getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds or less is far better. Even the AVERAGE passer rating on such plays is in the mid-90's, with very few sacks to reduce your net YPPA.

    The proper mix that is right for you as a quarterback really depends on what kind of quarterback you are. If you are a Russell Wilson or a Drew Brees, you have such great awareness that you actually appreciate the ability to scramble around and find options on the field. Ryan Tannehill ultimately is not that kind of player. Despite the athleticism that made him a field worthy wide receiver, and despite his accuracy throwing on the run, he is not necessarily at his best in extended play situations. He can have accurate passing in those situations, but his overall YPPA is dragged down significantly by the sacks he takes, and he's prone to bad decisions when he's scrambling out to the sidelines.

    So until he grows a better ability to improvise on extended play situations, you're really better off upping his percentage of passes where he gets the football out decisively, and working on his chemistry with his receivers to where he is placing the football more accurately on those short 3 and 1 step drops. I've never been a big fan of the 1 step drops but if the chemistry forms, they're deadly. The Dolphins had an opportunity to score a touchdown on one with Brian Hartline against the Texans, but Hartline couldn't hang on through some physical contact.

    I have Tannehill's yardage per play somewhere in the mid 7's on plays where he's getting the football out, whereas his yardage per play on plays where he doesn't get the ball out is only about 3.7 on average. That includes sacks and scrambles.

    This disparity in itself is a little concerning. Can you lay that entirely at the feet of Tannehill? No. His passing is actually 4 of 7 for 57 yards and 1 TD on such plays (although to be fair he had two throws that easily could have been interceptions on such plays). But he also had 4 scrambles for 14 yards and 4 sacks for -16 yards, which is why his Net YPPA is only 3.7 yards.

    I think the disparity says more about the offensive line. Like I said, efficiency may drop on plays where you hold the football longer, but some of your biggest plays can also come on those plays. If you're getting the football out of your hands in 2.5 seconds or less as Ryan Tannehill has (according to my stopwatch) on 23 of 38 plays (61%) then you're doing the offensive line's work for them. You're pretty much taking them out of the equation. When you hold the football longer than 2.5 seconds, that is when you ask the offensive line to earn their money.

    A great example of this happened the other night when the Saints took on the Raiders and Drew Brees ended up throwing the touchdown pass to Kenny Stills. Brees scrambled to extend the play, and had a comfortable amount of space to find a receiver for about 7 or maybe even 8 seconds. The offensive line just kept battling, kept punching the defensive linemen, getting position on them, bullying them around, and eventually Brees found his man in the front left corner of the end zone for a touchdown.

    [video=youtube;KiN3g4XAel4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiN3g4XAel4[/video]

    Now, compare that with a play like this:

    [video=youtube;_InJpkZ3eIU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_InJpkZ3eIU[/video]

    Many people say that Ryan Tannehill needs to get this football out sooner. I don't see them telling Drew Brees that when he executes similar plays but throws touchdowns instead of getting sacked. Had the blocking been better on the above play, and Ryan Tannehill had found a receiver on the scramble drill for a deep touchdown as he did Dustin Keller against the Jaguars, instead of blaming Ryan for holding the football too long I believe most people would be praising his ability to extend the play and find targets down the field.

    Yet the primary difference is the competitiveness of the blocking effort. To be fair, the Dolphins dealt with a four man rush whereas the Saints dealt with a three man rush. On the other hand, the competitiveness of the offensive line blocking was vastly different regardless of how many men rushed. Tyson Clabo is a savvy veteran and he stayed competitive, if not wholly effective, throughout the play. Jonathan Martin on the other hand, just gave up. He put his hands at his waist and just sat there watching like a bystander as Bryan Braman ran right around him and sacked his quarterback. And after the play, he didn't even have the courtesy to look mad at himself as if he did anything wrong.

    So while it's a good thing that Ryan Tannehill is dialing up his options more quickly, taking the success of the passing game out of the hands of the offensive line, the very wide disparity of success (7.4 Net YPPA vs. 3.7 Net YPPA) is concerning and needs to change. If the Dolphins want to do that, they're going to need the offensive line to shape up.
     
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  11. mcdave21

    mcdave21 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hope Martin gets reamed a new one for that in meetings this week. Smh
     
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  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Not to nitpick, because the OL's effort on that play was poor, but Tannehill could have managed that pocket better IMO.
     
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  13. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Don't disagree - but amazingly, Martin's guy got pressure inside of Martin to first force Tannehill back instead of up in the pocket - and then when he went up in the pocket he had a lot of real estate - except Martin's guy had now beaten him to the outside and there was no chance Ryan was going to elude him.

    Or at least that's how I saw it - and I'm by no means an expert.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think Tannehill could have worked the pocket in a little more textbook fashion but the bottom line is the guy that Clabo eventually let up, Ryan made that guy miss. He made the guy miss and had wide open space to his right where he could have continued to buy time, and either thrown the football or run for the 1st down on 2nd & 7.

    He couldn't do that because of a lack of competitiveness on the OL. They need to get their sh-t in order because Tannehill is a guy that CAN buy time and CAN hit big plays off it.
     
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  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    As for Daniel Thomas, I am hearing chatter from people that he is out playing Lamar Miller for the starting position.

    Let's just nip that sh-t in the bud right now.

    Count them. Daniel Thomas has had five 'decent' carries the entire preseason.

    1. He had a 5 yard gain on 2nd & 4 against the Dallas Cowboys second string defense.
    2. He had a 9 yard gain on 1st & 10 against the Jacksonville Jaguars second string defense.
    3. He followed that up on the next play with an 8 yard gain on 2nd & 1 against the same Jaguars defense.
    4. He had an 8 yard gain on 1st & 10 against the Houston Texans second string defense.
    5. He had a 13 yard gain on 1st & 10 against the same Texans second string defense.

    His other carries this preseason have gone for:

    1. 3 yards on 1st & 10
    2. 1 yard on 1st & 10
    3. 0 yards on 2nd & 9 (nullified by penalty)
    4. -6 yards on 2nd & 3
    5. 0 yards on a 2nd & 1 dive play (short yardage)
    6. 3 yards with a wide open hole because he tripped on his own feet on 1st & 10
    7. 1 yard on 1st & 10
    8. 3 yards on 1st & 10

    If this is the preseason performance against second string defenses that is winning the Miami Dolphins tailback competition, then the Miami Dolphins have some serious problems at tailback.

    But in reality, that's not what is happening. Do the same analysis of Lamar Miller's carries and you have a much HIGHER QUALITY performance.

    1. Had 10 yard carry on 2nd & 9 against the Cowboys second string
    2. Followed up with a 11 yard carry on 1st & 10 against the same
    3. Had a 5 yard carry on 1st & 10 against the Jaguars first string
    4. Had a 8 yard carry on 1st & 10 against the Texans first string (nullified by penalty)
    5. Had a 5 yard carry on 1st & 16 against the Texans first string
    6. Had a 4 yard TOUCHDOWN on a nice run on 2nd & Goal against the Texans second string

    1. 1 yard on 1st & 10 against Jaguars first string
    2. 3 yards on 1st & 10 against Texans first string (and that includes J.J. Watt who only played 2 snaps)
    3. 0 yards on 1st & 10 against the Texans first string (nullified by penalty)
    4. -3 yards on 2nd & 11 against the Texans first string

    The actual accounting of the plays kind of speaks for itself, and that's not even mentioning the fact that 7 of Miller's 10 carries came against 1st string defenses whereas none of Daniel Thomas' carries did.
     
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  16. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Omar is on Thomas's jock for some reason and if you don't agree with him you're an idiot who has never watched football and doesn't udnerstand what you're seeing.
     
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  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yeah that's a head scratcher.
     
  18. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    His game has no holes.

    :escape:
     
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  19. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Good. He'd just trip trying to run through them otherwise.
     
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  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The reason he's on his jock is because the coaching staff is.
     
  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    TO me, it's less abut DT outperforming Lamar and more about DT outperforming Grey and Gillislee.

    I had hoped to see DT cut this year when those two outshone him. But I am starting to see DT gain momentum in his performances. If this keeps up, he not only isn't being cut, he'll be ensconced as the #2 RB for the season.

    Not sure anymore if that's a good or bad thing.

    I haven't liked him, but some players DO develop. Sometimes the lightbulb comes on. Who knows.
     
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  22. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Down Arrow That Surprised Me

    Dion Sims really disappointed me after Keller's injury. Was hoping to see him step up and he didn't seem to do so. But hey, I still believe he will play very very well for a rookie TE. A shame he lost Keller ahead of thim though.

    The question is... Who becomes our #1 now. There is a seriously open battle possible, I guess between Sims and Egnew, but I see them as so different I'm not sure that's the case.

    Still, you can't tip off defenses but using Sims when you plan to run and subbing Egnew when you plan to throw. So who do you start? I'm tempted to use Egnew and Dion in 2 TE sets, but use Clay and Dion in some situations too. When at goalline I would use a guy like Yeatman instead of Egnew, and throw Sims in there.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Quite frankly I don't know that he's really out performed Gray.

    Here's the same analysis for Gray:

    1. 9 yards on 2nd & 11
    2. 7 yards on 2nd & 4
    3. 29 yards on 1st & 10
    4. 1 yard TOUCHDOWN on 2nd & Goal
    5. 4 yards on 2nd & 2
    6. 4 yards on 1st & 10
    7. 4 yards on 1st & 10
    8. 6 yards on 1st & Goal from the 7
    9. 1 yard TOUCHDOWN on 2nd & Goal
    10. 5 yards on 2nd & 10
    11. 6 yards on 1st & 10

    1. -2 yards on 1st & 10
    2. 2 yards on 1st & 10
    3. 1 yard on 2nd & 8
    4. 1 yard on 2nd & 6
    5. 3 yards on 1st & 10
    6. -1 yards on 1st & 10
    7. 2 yards on 1st & 10
    8. 5 yards on 3rd & 8
    9. 0 yards on 1st & 10
    10. 0 yards on 1st & 10
    11. 3 yards on 2nd & 6
    12. 0 yards on 3rd & 3
    13. 3 yards on 3rd & 7
    14. 1 yard on 2nd & 3
    15. 3 yards on 1st & 10 (nullified on penalty)
    16. 2 yards on 1st & 10

    These are clearly not as good results as you see in Lamar Miller's work. But are they better than Daniel Thomas' work?

    1. In Daniel Thomas I see quality results on 5 of his 13 runs (38.5%). In Jonas Gray I see quality on 11 out of 27 runs (40.7%). Those are pretty close.

    2. In Daniel Thomas I see 3.7 yards per carry versus Gray's 3.7 yards per carry, again pretty close.

    3. Consider the adjustments to that. Daniel Thomas got NO goal line or tight red zone carries. Jonas Gray took two carries that had a maximum potential of 2 yards total and he got those 2 yards (and 2 touchdowns). Take those out and Gray's average jumps to 3.9 yards per carry.

    4. Then again, let's actually consider that. Daniel Thomas only got one real crack at a short yardage play that you could visually confirm was a short yardage dive call. He hesitated in the backfield on the play and failed to gain anything. Jonas Gray had a carry inside the 7 yard line and gained 6 yards on it, and then had two carries at the 1 yard line and converted the touchdown both times. His short yardage work has been superior to Thomas' career averages.

    5. Consider that on run plays, Pro Football Focus has not recorded a single broken tackle created by Daniel Thomas. Meanwhile Jonas Gray has recorded 6 broken tackles created on his runs.

    6. As for catching the football, they've both done it. Jonas Gray has 5 catches for 39 yards (and 1 more broken tackle created), and Daniel Thomas has 2 catches for 28 yards (and 0 broken tackles created).

    7. I show 3 out of 13 plays (23.1%) where Daniel Thomas has been tackled for a loss or a zero gain. I show 5 out of 27 plays (18.5%) for Jonas Gray.

    8. Jonas Gray's 29 yard run very nearly ties the longest run Daniel Thomas has had in his career (32 yards).

    9. Perhaps most importantly, neither player has played against 1st string defenses.

    I am not going to pretend that Jonas Gray is blowing the guy away but I *DO* find it interesting that Gray can break 6 tackles against backup players and average about the same overall against them, yet when Daniel Thomas has a stretch of literally four good runs against backups over the course of two games ah(that included no broken tackles)...we're waving victory banners over Daniel Thomas.
     
  24. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Thanks for the analysis. I'd be curious how each performed in blocking/blitz pickup, if you have it available to you.

    The thing with the Grey/DT comparison is... DT will have perception on his side in several ways: 1) A guy lower on the depth chart and with less experience will generally have to outperform the guy above him by some margin in order to supplant him.. if it's close I think the incumbent keeps his spot (now we can debate if DT is the incumbent #2 RB but I thinkwe'd agree the coaches see him there) 2) People (and I'd wager coaches too, being people) tend to perceive recent events as more significant than ones further in the past... so DT's more recent performance will outweigh Greys older good performances if that makes any sense (I don;t agree, but it tends to be the 'what has he done for us lately' effect) and finally 3) there is also the perception of quality of opponent... DT had his best performance against the 'best' team we faced, a playoff team... now sure, those second strongers are not really representative of that, but I think the perception of doing it 'against the Texans' will also seep into the way coaches are seeing DT right now.

    I feel like Grey needs to significantly outperform DT to supplant him.

    Or wait for Dt's inevitable headache and hamstring.
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    According to Pro Football Focus the only one of the backs that's given up any pressure is Gillislee who gave up 1 sack and 1 pressure.

    And honestly maybe we're having the WRONG discussion.
     
  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    DT played the third and fifth drives. I looked at the beginning of that third drive and at least half of that Texans D was made up of starters. I saw Cushing, Mitchell, Smith, Reed, Manning and Joseph. I know that during that drive I also saw Kareem Jackson, Mays and Watt. That's every projected starter on the Texan's D except for Ed Reed who is injured and didn't lay at all. DT was clearly playing against the starters. Also I would say it's pretty obvious that DT was playing very well. He looked like the best back Miami had that night. I have faith that Miller will step it up, but he didn't that night. Even the Texan announcers, who are presumably unbiased, on the broadcast were raving about how impressive DT looked on his runs. They were not nearly as effusive about any of the other Miami backs.
     
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  27. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Why's that?
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    On each of the Daniel Thomas runs only 3 of the Texans' starting front 7 were present. If you call that "playing against the starters"...have at it, hoss.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Gillislee. What's he done to make the roster? Anything?

    He was kind of an afterthought as a pick, one of the very last picks in the 5th round right next to the kicker we took and before the 7th rounder whom nobody thinks is making the team.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The starters were substituting in and out during his runs and on the pass plays that he was in. Much like Miami, the Texans sub all along their front 7. The D that DT played against is basically the team he'd have faced during a regular season game. So yes, he did face the starters.
     
  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You've probably nailed it. The answer was so obvious now when we think about it. Like him or not, Thomas looks like a lock, and the real battle is Gray vs Gillislee for the #3 RB, and we'll carry a 4th on the PS.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Guess Derrick Shelby qualifies as a starter now. Vaughn Martin too.
     
  33. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thomas will be the 1B back if we like it or not.
     
  34. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's earned it. He's clearly better than Gray, who's honestly overrated here. Right now Gray is in a battle against Gilislee. He has the edge but both have looked pretty bad.
     
  35. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I don't think Gray has looked bad at all. He hasn't been great but he's earning a place on the team. Just not ahead of Daniel Thomas.

    Gillislee has been underwhelming and I wonder where that will leave him when it comes down to the final 53.
     
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  36. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I thought Thomas has played well so far, better than I expected, on the flip side Gray has been a disappointment, I thought he'd be more explosive.

    TBH, Gillislee was supposed to fill and Thomas type role, good all around player, he really hasn't impressed either.

    I suspect we are looking at Te's and maybe some of Washington's surplus of Rb's atm.
     
  37. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    Over Yonder
    Up - three and outs

    Down - Dustin Keller
     
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  38. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agree to disagree on that. I haven't seen much from him personally.
     
  39. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I think some fans give Daniel Thomas the Ted Ginn treatment. Where he is already under the gun because of his draft status. If he wasn't traded up for in the 2nd round I don't think there is nearly the vitriol there is towards him.

    I think my biggest pet peeve in sports are fans who expect too much too early from players. DT has certainly been nothing special in his 2 years in the NFL. He has injury problems and fumbles and has sub par vision, BUT people like to ignore that he's still young and learning. He has shown flashes like he did Saturday night of being someone who can make things happen. He needs to be more consistent.

    DT has worked hard this offseason and I hope it pays off for him because it will benefit the team.

    Admittedly, the constant negativity towards him is making me pull extra hard for him to be successful. We shall see.
     
  40. Jagfish

    Jagfish Season Ticket Holder

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    Yeah Gillislee would be easier to get on the PS than say Francis too.
     
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