Yup, he even left off some guys that are better, Crabtree, TY Hilton, Blackmon, Malcolm Floyd, Lance Moore.
If that's the case then why not talk about some of the traits and skills he has that make him as good as you say he is? You say he's good off the LOS, how so?
I can't think of any worse measure of a players actual value than their contract. There are so many mitigating circumstances and there are so many instances where player contracts don't correlate with success or ability. http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/wide-receiver/ There isn't more than haphazard correlation between performance and pay-grade whichever way you'd like to cut it. I don't think Pro Bowl votes have anything to do with it either. My argument is that there isn't any reason not to take his production at face value and a lot of people come up with contrived and not really good attempts to discredit or explain around that because he's not exciting or whatever.
Oh I like his game, do wonder about his ceiling as he lacks some traits an elite Wr has, however I also think he is waaay undervalued by Dolfans. He's one of those players who can do what you need done, isn't flashy, but probably won't be an "elite' type of player, which is not a bad thing. He's a top 25 Wr imo, on a given game day he can fluctuate between Top 10 and bottom 50, as his flaws hold him back. A part of his "trip and fall down" problem was THill and Henne's inaccuracy, the other part is he still looks like a track guy playing WR. Gangly and not fluid, good hands and tough and faster then he is given credit for being. That is as objective as I can be about this subject, the good and bad so to speak. TBH, I'm somewhat shocked he has not caught a concussion as of yet, that gangliness just suggests he will be lit up sooner or later. "Go up for ball, catch it, stumble stumble..whaaack!!!"
You say that like Hartline is always open in the endzone... or that Tannehill should always just throw the ball up for grabs in the EZ and wait for Hartline to break open and snag it. Dunno what you're seeing, but Hartline is never open in the EZ. Ever. He makes his bones between the 10s after having time to work himself open after 10 - 20 yards. In the redzone he just gets swallowed up by dbs... His 1 TD came from outside the RZ after he got past his coverage and he almost stumbled and failed to do so.
Best way to put it is this, a Wr does not suddenly stink b/c they are inside the 10 yd line, when you add up our last 3 yrs of passing Td production, 48 games, you still have not even equaled one yr for an "elite" Qb. Qb's throw Wr's open folks, ours don't.
If it's a true misnomer we wouldn't have spent $60 million on Wallace. In the case of value placed on the receiver, Wallace is our number 1 guy, not to be confused with the intention to be the most targeted. If Hartline were good enough last year as our number 1 guy we likely wouldn't have inked Wallace, which is kinda my point. Hartline hasn't proven to be on a high enough level of play to positively say he'll be on the same schedule as last year. If that happens it means a chunk of our receivers and tight ends either failed to develop or became injured b/c there's no benefit to having Hartline seeing 26% of the passing game's targets. Moving the chains over the first 60 yards of field? fine, keep him on it until an O2 tank is needed, but inside opponents' 40 he's not an asset in any shape or form, so all those reps and targets he received in that area last year shouldn't persist at the same level in 2013 unless we're intentionally trying to kick field goals or Philbin & Sherman want to get themselves fired. Situational football. Just b/c Hartline is a good overall receiver it doesn't mean he's good in all situations. In fact he's great across the first 60% of the field but becomes progressively worse the closer we approach the endzone. If he's to receive 26% of our targets inside the 40 then Sturgis should have an opportunity to break the all-time rookie kicking record. Hartline doesn't deserve 128 targets again because that means a whole lotta wasted YAC and scoring opportunities. If he were an elite chain mover it'd be a different story but he's not (he ranked 52nd among all receivers with at least 20 first downs last year). I'd rather see better playmakers, scorers, and young guys in need of developing like Keller, Egnew, Gibson, Matthews, and Sims get at least 25% of Hartline's 128 2012 targets so that those 128 targets are better maximized in 2013 b/c I can't look at those targets and say with any sort of straight face that they were remotely close to maximized by Hartline last year.
He failed to maximize his 128 targets last year, therefore he does not deserve that many again this year and will not see that many unless injuries plague the season. That's pretty much akin to a demotion b/c Ireland, Philbin, and Sherman will not feel the team benefits from Hartline seeing another 26% of the passing targets. So what will that say about Hartline when our staff feels he needs a significant reduction in balls thrown his way? By significant I mean in the neighborhood of 20%.
Didn't realize Crabtree isn't on the list. Hartline has a ways to go to surpass Crabtree, and by ways to go I mean undergo a complete DNA swap.
To be fair, Ireland isn't paying Wallace double that of Hartline because he thinks they're equal in talent & production potential. Contracts might prove to be a poor measure after the fact, but at the time they're constructed they represent a pretty clear picture of perceived value based on both recent performance and future expectations. No one can truly assess accurate player value b/c no one knows for certain what the future production will be; therefore all measures of player assessment have an inherent flaw, so I don't see why a recently given contract should be deemed a poor measure, b/c it's not like the contract itself causes players to perform poorly.
Don't know. Cecil Shorts certainly didn't have a problem with it, but you go ahead and keep on ignoring this fact so you can continue interjecting this foolish falsehood of yours that it's the QB holding back Hartline from scoring. lol. What you're purporting is like saying it's the bow's fault Jim Abbott isn't an accurate archer. It's like saying it's the basketball's fault Webster couldn't dunk.
Right, but the WR has to create some separation, come open as the QB gets the ball to him, and make a play on balls thrown to them that aren't ideally targeted, but placed where they can make a play, but the DB cannot. Our WRs last season took a while to create the separation and when Tannehill did try to get the ball to Hartline, the guy lacked the ability to keep his feet. Also, it takes time to build chemistry with a WR and to know what and when they are going to be able to make a play on a ball to be thrown open. Hartline was out all off-season recovering from appendix surgery. Honestly, I am surprised he and Tannehill were able to click as well as they did, but when you consider that there were no other options on the field, it was good that RT was mostly patient and rarely tried to force the ball.
I'm not sure how you've got any meaningful definition of "#1" receiver here. This seems like you're focusing on your own personnel excitement for the player rather than anything else. The idea that Brian Hartline got too many targets is not an argument you can support. There fundamentally has to be some sort of evidence of inefficiency that not only isn't there, but evidence in these areas pretty firmly points to the contrary. He adapted quite well to his workload- He's top 10 in catch % and yards per catch in guys with his workload, and he's overall one of the most productive relative to his snap count. The touchdowns argument is really the one that holds a lot of weight, and I'm not sure how you can possibly be so hung up on it except for theatrical purposes. It's a general problem the offense had, and is a problem that isn't caused by a single player but is easily cured by low-cost specialists. Most of these other arguments look like someone is picking out "low" statistics without regard for the bigger picture. Why do I care about his YAC? He produces well in terms of per-catch, and in terms of 20+ yard receptions. The difference between him catching a 15 yard pass and falling over(see what I did there) and him catching a 7 yard pass and running 8 is what when that production is coming well regardless?
Brian Hartline was the same receiver he was the previous years he was here. Yes his yardage total went up ... so did his targets. His catch % was mid-50s, his average in previous years. But with all of those extra targets he still only got 1 TD which means his TD production went down last year. He has the chance to maintain his numbers if we become prolific, but with Mike Wallace here he might lose targets and revert back to his old numbers. We'll see.
There's plenty of evidence. Situational breakdown is quite clear of this, starting with 1 TD in 128 targets. If that's not inefficient I refuse to debate this any further. Secondly, there's an obvious statistical diminishment in production and efficiency the closer he reaches the endzone, starting from the 40 on in. This isn't arguable; it's a statistical fact. Thirdly, his 93rd ranked YAC per target isn't contrived. If that's not inefficient at maximizing after-catch opportunities then I don't know what is. Fourthly, ranking 52nd in moving the chains is not an argument for Gibson, one of the NFL's most efficient chain movers last year, to not eat into some of Hartline's targets. It's like you're building up Hartline to all of a sudden being Calvin Johnson to where no one else on the team could possibly do more with some of those targets. He's not a playmaker, and there's a reason Ireland was prepared to draft Tavon Austin. He wants guys who can do damage on their own, and those guys will get opportunities. I've provided plenty of evidence to support why he doesn't deserve such a high amount of targets again (128). It's time for the opposition to show why he does deserve 26% of the passing game's targets despite being in an offense that's supposed to revolve around ball distribution. I'll give you one better however. Greg Jennings was Green Bay's top target from 2007-2011 under coach Philbin. He received an average of 20.3% of all targets during those 5 years. Jennings was twice the receiver Hartline is, putting up 46 TDs during that span while being a more efficient chain mover and significantly better after the catch, so situationally speaking he's not a liability anywhere on the field unlike Hartline; therefore I'd love to hear an argument supporting the inferior Hartline deserving to maintain his current level of 26.2% of all targets when Jennings averaged 20.3%. Based on last year's 505 total pass attempts, that 5.9% difference equates to a 23% reduction in Hartline targets, dropping him to 102, which is closer to where it should be if we're trying to maximize those 505 attempts. Honest question, do you think Philbin wants to give Hartline 26% of our redzone attempts?
WADR, you can't handle the facts, not Todd. I've asked this a bunch, and I've even asked you specifically: "Receivers 1 thru 3 were never open in the endzone. Receivers 1 thru 3 never took the ball into the endzone. Please tell me how Tannehill was supposed to increase his TD totals when his first 3 targets were that poor at scoring?" And you still haven't answered it. Why is that?
Hartline is efficient?????? If Hartline is efficient, then what is Vincent Jackson. V.Jackson had 2 less catches but had 7 more TDs, 300+ more yards, 60 more YAC, 12 more 1st downs, and zero fumbles. Or S. Smith who had 1 less catch but 3 more TDs, 100 more yards, 14 more YAC, 3 more 1st downs, and zero fumbles. Or S. Johnson who had 5 more catches, but 5 more TDs, 30ish less yards, 100 more YAC, 4 more 1st downs, and the same amount of fumbles. Or M. Austin who had 8 less catches but had 5 more TDs, 140ish less yards, 65 more YAC, same amount of 1st downs, and same amount of fumbles. When it comes to efficiency, Hartline was the third from worst WR (with 50+ catches, the worst was Bess) in the league last year on a per catch basis.
I'll add another onto it. From a numbers standpoint we have more guys competing for targets this year, and these guys either do a better job vying for targets than their predecessors or are more developed and ready to incur a larger role. Just for kicks let's explore the argument that Hartline should continue receiving his 128 targets. If this holds true then by default the other guys should also maintain their prior level, otherwise it's quite hypocritical. Keep in mind there were 505 total targets last year. Hartline: 128 targets Wallace: 111 (3 year avg) Gibson: 82 Keller: 108 (last 2 year avg when healthy) Binns: 40 Clay: 33 total: 502 targets Wow, we've already reached last year's total and we haven't even gotten to Egnew, Matthews, Sims, or the backs. Sorry Egnew & Matthews, looks like another year of no contribution. Pack it in kids. Passing game will likely suffer without the use of an outlet back. So much for a screen game, too. Hey, at least Hartline keeps his 128 targets though. lol. If anyone believes Hartline will continue his 26.2% of ALL TARGETS while Wallace, Keller, Gibson, Egnew, Matthews, Binns, Clay, Miller, Thomas, Sims, Thigpen, and Gillislee all fight for the remaining piece of the pie then I'm in for a jolly good chuckle when the final results come in, no offense to any.
Maybe 2-3 years ago, not now though. Hartline never had a season with a 10.8 YPC (36/366). Jennings WAS a very good receiver. He WAS better then Hartline. He is not better then Hartline now. He even had the benefit of Aaron Rodgers not a rookie QB like Hartline and Hartline still put up better stats. Kinda tells you where Jennings is in his career. Hes a big name and former fantasy football hero whose better days are behind him. I was thrilled we didnt get him in FA. He MIGHT hit 800-900 yards with ponder throwing him the ball this year only because Minnesota has to throw it and eventually complete it to someone and weapons in the passing game arent aplenty there.
My guess is that Wallace, Hartline, Gibson and Keller will get 400 - 430 targets if healthy. The remaining 70 - 80 targets will go to backs, 5th WR and back-up TE. I don't think Hartline will get 26%, but I do expect he'll get 20% - 23% of the targets.
which is perfectly fine and reasonable, especially on the low end of 20%. I'm not sure if some fans realize just how much 26% of the targets is for a receiver, especially a #2 receiver or the like. Hartline's 26.2% is greater than Larry Fitzgerald's career avg for crap sake. It's greater than Victor Cruz & Calvin Johnson's avg the past 2 years. It was 12th most in the NFL last year and would've ranked 6th in 2011, 8th in 2010, 10th in 2009, 10th in 2008, 8th in 2007, 10th in 2006. That averages out to ranking 9th most in offensive target percentage the past 7 years.
GTHO here. Read my above post. You're a loose screw away from a lobotomy if you think Hartline deserves to see the NFL's 9th most offensive target percentage!!! Off.your.rocker. What's worse is thinking it's disrespectful toward him to believe he doesn't deserve to see a greater percentage than Calvin, Fitz, or Cruz. Reducing him to around 21% appropriately puts him just under healthy Hakeem Nicks territory. If you had any sense you'd want Hartline's targets reduced because it'd likely mean we have more than just 2 goddam receivers to disperse passes to. How you get so defensive over a guy who never scores and rarely does anything heart pumping is beyond me. It's like getting excited over white paint. He's a solid possession receiver minus playmaking ability & scoring potential. That's not grounds for 26% of the targets. C'mon honest question: do you feel Hartline deserves 26% of the targets inside our opponents 30 despite 1 TD in 128 targets last year and 3 the past three years?
^ LOL. Like entering a d*** measuring contest and pulling out a 2 incher. Stretches the phrase "highlight film" pretty loosely. Only thing less exciting is finding one of a player sitting on the bench. then for a good laugh compare it to this. [video=youtube;tmMP9DqeiSM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmMP9DqeiSM[/video]
Anonymous, can you kindly show me where to advance to in the Hartline clip to see a duplicate of any of Dez's plays? Thx. I particularly like Dez's play at 4:55 b/c it's similar to the one Hartline had vs San Fran, except Hartline was ankle tackled in the open field on a catch that could've easily resulted in a huge TD and provided a great shot to win the game. Playmakers convert those for TDs, just as Dez did.
So boring watching Hartline's "highlight" clip immediately after Dez's. Like swinging with a practice donut, only reverse. Depressing how many times the Hitman would've fallen down in Dez's video where Dez keeps going and going. BTW, anyone arguing Dez isn't a top 5 receiver should prolly watch it. Some sick sh**. Man among boys.
Here's a guy who isn't in the top 40 list but actually deserves it. Some of you talk about Hartline's route running as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (I admit it is good) but it difinitely takes a back seat to the skill of Crabtree who's easily a better all around receiver and who attacks a defense across the entire field rather than mostly sideline stuff. Highlights start at the 1 minute mark. [video=youtube;WivYeNzmnxs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WivYeNzmnxs[/video]
Hartline is not bad, but the fact that he caught 1 TD.... it is very very very bad... maybe it is Tannehill, of ourse, but even then, with him as a QB: Fasano had 5 TD (!!!), Reggie Bush and Clay had 2 (!!), AND EVEN SCRUBS Like Lane or Marlon Moore (!!!) had the same amount of TD (on a different number of targets)... that is not good...that is very very very bad.... I mean no disrespect for BH, who I like very much for a couple of reason (good worker, good teammate, good hands, good route runner, good speed, he is a best at running some routes, he has awesome chemistry with Tannehill), but you can't ignore that TD number, it is so out of the world, considering targets and the absence of big competition for the ball (like he had wwhen Marshall was here)
well, that did not stop the super wr marlon (stone hands) moore from catching 2 td on 12 receptions (12? yes, I said 12........) from the same Td tossing machines Henne and Tannehill in the last 3 years ..... so, tbh, I really dont think anyone could think that Hartline's TD difficulties are just QB related..... there are worse WR that had more TD with the Same qb... so, maybye, BH just is not good at scoring... it is very possible, anyone has some weakness in 2011, Bess (not exactly a TD machine) had 3 td and BH, again, just 1... in 2010, Bess had 5 and BH, again, just 1..... only in 2009,he had a true TD bonanza, leading the team with....3 tds.....+1 on the Scoring Monster Bess I can see a trend, here... (and I am always talking about players in the same system&team, I think this is quite significant) ps- I am using pro-football reference for this statistics, I hope they are not wrong, lol
Is Hartline a top 40 WR ? Silly question......... who cares where he ranks... ? No idea where some of this stuff even comes from. It's like you have to invent new things to complain about. Is Brian Hartline worth keeping ? Does he make us better ? Will having a healthy offseason to work in this offense only help him get better ? Yes.Yes.Yes. Happy to have him on my team.
All this stuff is great, but you completely ignore the mental side, which Hartline is vastly superior in. Dez Bryant can't read a defense to save his life. It's clear there is a stylistic bias here.
prove it. i mean show actual video evidence instead of just hearsay from some random person you heard say it. and if hartline is vastly superior in mental ability,then it still hasn't led to him out producing dez. dez has the same amount of TD's in his rookie year, as hartline has in his entire career. so even if dez cant read defenses like you claim, it clearly isn't hindering his production. Talent>>>>everything [TABLE="class: data-table1, width: 100%"] [TR="class: player-table-header DALcolors, bgcolor: #162859 !important"] [TD="colspan: 13"]RECEIVING[/TD] [/TR] [TR="class: player-table-key, bgcolor: #AAAAAA"] [TD="class: first-td, width: 20px"]Year[/TD] [TD="width: 140px, align: center"]Team[/TD] [TD="align: center"]G[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Rec[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Yds[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Avg[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Yds/G[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Lng[/TD] [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD] [TD="align: center"]20+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]40+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1st[/TD] [TD="class: last-td, align: center"]FUM[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2012[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Dallas Cowboys[/TD] [TD="align: center"]16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]92[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1,382[/TD] [TD="align: center"]15.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]86.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]85T[/TD] [TD="align: center"]12[/TD] [TD="align: center"]19[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]54[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: border-td, colspan: 13, align: center"][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2011[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Dallas Cowboys[/TD] [TD="align: center"]15[/TD] [TD="align: center"]63[/TD] [TD="align: center"]928[/TD] [TD="align: center"]14.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]61.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]50T[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]17[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]48[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: border-td, colspan: 13, align: center"][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2010[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Dallas Cowboys[/TD] [TD="align: center"]12[/TD] [TD="align: center"]45[/TD] [TD="align: center"]561[/TD] [TD="align: center"]12.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]46.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]46[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]27[/TD] [TD="align: center"]0[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [TABLE="class: data-table1, width: 100%"] [TR="class: player-table-header MIAcolors, bgcolor: #007883 !important"] [TD="colspan: 13"]RECEIVING[/TD] [/TR] [TR="class: player-table-key, bgcolor: #AAAAAA"] [TD="class: first-td, width: 20px"]Year[/TD] [TD="width: 140px, align: center"]Team[/TD] [TD="align: center"]G[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Rec[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Yds[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Avg[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Yds/G[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Lng[/TD] [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD] [TD="align: center"]20+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]40+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1st[/TD] [TD="class: last-td, align: center"]FUM[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2012[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Miami Dolphins[/TD] [TD="align: center"]16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]74[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1,083[/TD] [TD="align: center"]14.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]67.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]80T[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]14[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]48[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: border-td, colspan: 13, align: center"][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2011[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Miami Dolphins[/TD] [TD="align: center"]16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]35[/TD] [TD="align: center"]549[/TD] [TD="align: center"]15.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]34.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]41[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]30[/TD] [TD="align: center"]0[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: border-td, colspan: 13, align: center"][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2010[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Miami Dolphins[/TD] [TD="align: center"]12[/TD] [TD="align: center"]43[/TD] [TD="align: center"]615[/TD] [TD="align: center"]14.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]51.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]54[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]10[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]27[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: border-td, colspan: 13, align: center"][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]2009[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Miami Dolphins[/TD] [TD="align: center"]16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]31[/TD] [TD="align: center"]506[/TD] [TD="align: center"]16.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]31.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]67[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]26[/TD] [TD="align: center"]0[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: border-td, colspan: 13, align: center"][/TD] [/TR] [TR="class: datatabledatahead"] [TD="class: player-totals, colspan: 2, align: right"]TOTAL[/TD] [TD="align: center"]60[/TD] [TD="align: center"]183[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2,753[/TD] [TD="align: center"]15.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]45.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]80[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]39[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]131[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
First, no one in this thread said that Hartline was better than Dez. The argument was Victor Cruz. This whole Bryant is better than Hartline thing is pointless. Not being as good as the guy you think is top 5, doesn't mean someone isn't top 30, much less top 40. Second, Hartline game is not breaking tackles or YAC. Individual stats are way overly weighted by fans when talking about a team game like football. What does the player do? An open WR is open whether the ball is thrown to him or not. Here is what I think Hartline is great at when generally compared to the receivers in the NFL, getting off the LOS, route running, and catching the ball in all situations (defended body shielding, in the air, working the sideline, etc...). I think he is good at reading the play, making decisions when the play breaks down ie scramble drills, and has good hustle. He has average speed and quickness, and finally poor strength, tackle breaking and balance with the ball in his hands (which is weird because in routes he is fine). That absolutely makes a top 40 WR, and depending on your offense a top 30.
