Personally not a fan of Allen but there is no way he is a 4.9 player when healthy. He plays the game much faster then that….
After dropping a billion dollars on receivers this offseason, I honestly don't think wide receiver is on the table for pick 12 or 42. Now 2b may present a receiver too good to pass up, and I put Keenan Allen and D'Andre Hopkins in that category. Depends also on what you think about Ryan Swope.
Even Mayock's stopwatch said 4.71/4.75...I don't think anyone's saying 4.9. I think the injury has something to do with it. But I also think fully healthy he might've gone out there and run a 4.6 or so. And I don't think it's entirely coincident that he's not fully recovered.
This is what I can't get beyond. You'd have to think they're done at that position if they're truly happy with what they've done, and after $100 million in new contracts you'd certainly HOPE they would be happy with what they've done!
I think this might push him below guys like Hopkins, Williams, Wheaton, and Patton on a lot of teams draft boards. I wouldn't bet on it, but, he could fall into the 3rd. However, I think when the smoke settles, Allen will be among the more productive WRs in this class.
Anywho I really for apologize for getting off track and being a ****, I can be quite critical of you (ck) of late, while still admitting your my favorite poster of all time. I live for football and have picked your brains for a decade ! Spooky ! Noboby likes to be quoted and jabbed. I took it a little far and my stance is that you insulted my maturity. I'll probably be punished, childish jerk is uncalled for, too much.. didnt edit that ! Forgive me. We have to give up this WR thing, especially in the 1st. However, this time could put Allen in the 2b, 3a range, where there is some real value ?? Not Flashy, not exactly your red-zone specialist. Ck was right after last years draft projecting we look at a DT 1st pick, forgot the name. I argued that. I said WR.
In all fairness, Mark Harrison, as much of an athletic freak he might be... he's a project. Someone... might... get a steal in him. He wasn't very productive for a guy with his measurables. But, I like him as a late-round pick.
An argument over Keenan Allen on a message board, it's like deja vu for me... Anyway, for what it's worth, I've never been a big fan of Allen. I tend to be of the mind that the third round is the appropriate location. Back when people were talking about him at 12, I went and watched a few games and just didn't understand the hype. I saw a receiver who was solid, but nothing spectacular. Then I worked out the numbers on him and they about said the same thing. There were positives in the numbers, he's got good hands on tape and a low drop rate. The CK inspired yards after catch on screens shows well for Allen, which means he can create his own yardage. However, I keep coming back to the jack of all trades, master of none adage. I know that was used earlier in the thread, but IMO it aptly describes Allen. I don't hate him, although some certainly seem to think a third round grade means that, but I can just pick out other receivers I like more. With most of the top wide receivers I can pick out plays in my mind that are representative of them as players. Patton when he juked an A&M defender out of shoes one on one. Patterson beating Darius Slay for a TD on an out-breaking route. Bailey catching a ball against Marshall and outrunning defenders for about 60 yards. Allen just comes up blank for me, that's about how average I think of him. I'm not sure if that makes sense...
Do you at least see how the post you wrote in response to "I'm perfectly comfortable with you believing that" could be seen as pretty much just an outright attack? You're kind of fast-forwarding a little bit to my response to it wherein I talked about you editing and whatnot. But all I did was essentially say to you, "agree to disagree" and you were on my *** about it immediately with the sarcasm and insults and all that, talking about my agenda, how I'm trying to get people to gobble up my opinion as fact, how if Jeff Ireland farted I'd be sampling it or whatever it was you said. This is not polite discourse. I just don't understand why. I hadn't to that point taken even the SLIGHTEST jab at you, veiled or unveiled. I'm just trying to get us beyond this wanton antagonism which I don't understand nor think is necessary.
The draft is fraught with risk. I don't see any less risk in Keenan Allen than I do Mark Harrison. That's just being honest.
I hear you. When I think of Keenan Allen though I do think of his pure ability to catch the football, and I do think of his fearlessness with the ball in the air. Those are positives. But they'll only get you so far. I also thought he was bigger than he actually is. And that's just pure illusion. It happens. Sometimes on tape you also think a guy is faster than he really is, or has a better arm than he really does, or a worse arm than he really does. Perception of the tape is subject to context, camera angles, etc. Really I think what it is with him is I was thinking he would take another step forward. You rate a guy high because they've shown something unique and you're trying to imagine what more they're going to show you as they keep progressing. Malliciah Goodman was like that. But when there's no progression...you're left really disappointed and coming away thinking, man this guy just kind of is what he is.
Possibly. Depends on who we take at 12 and who else is on the board at 42. Definitely would get strong consideration from me though.
I thought Robert Woods was 6'2" - 6'3" for like two years. I still don't think I've reconciled the fact that he's only 6'0", 201. Another guy I've never been super excited about, kind of have the same feelings about him as I do Allen.
The one that is shorter than I keep seeing him being is Marquise Lee. I keep seeing him as being like this 6'4" megalith. He just plays like one, lol. Robert Woods another perfect example of a guy that shows something unique for his age group and then he gets high ratings based on everyone's guess at the answer to the question, "If he looks like this now, what's he going to look like after another two years?". But then he doesn't progress. He regresses. And if you're stuck on thinking he's a great player, you're left trying to blame the quarterback or the system or whatever. Or you just come to the realization that he's not all you thought he could be. Same thing happened with Jon Baldwin...for me.
I really hope this means he falls.... to US. My second favorite player in this years draft...maybe 3rd. Kid is going to be a damn good pro, I don't give a rats behind what his 40 is. I can rattle off quite a few that had bad 40 times that were really really good WR's. All this means is that he isn't going to make as much money early on, and that some team is going to strike gold in a later round with him.
There's much debate in my mind about whether Grampa Joe has as much of an iron grip over team morality as it appears at times. Sometimes it looks like he'd veto anyone that was ever seen at a strip club. Sometimes it looks like that's not the case. Whether I believe one or the other, I have to think his side of the argument wins out in extreme/semi-extreme cases, and I think Da'Rick Rogers is one of those cases.
I think Philbin has some say in it, too... and, Philbin is a 'football player' guy. I know Ireland loves his measurables, but I think Allen, Hopkins, possibly Bailey are the type of guys Philbin would rather have. JMO.
Well, sure... if you're talking the risk of Allen @ #42 vs the risk of Harrison @ #217. Every pick is a risk. However, Allen is already developed as a WR. He's ready to play right now. Harrison comes as 'some assembly required.' Now, Harrison could develop and be amazing. I just think Allen, all things considered, is far less of a risk. If we get either one, I'll be excited. I'm just not getting my hopes up. I already let you get me fired up about Stedman Bailey. I'll be damned if I'm going to let you do it to me again at the same exact position.
Probably right, he runs a tight ship and I like that. But I'm also a fan of taking a chance on a guy who could change the dynamic of you team. I think he goes before 42 anyhow. Just a hunch.
I think he's gone before 32 myself, but....if we drafted Warner, Trufant, Lane Johnson or Star at 12 then landed Allen, I'd be doing cartwheels down my hallway....surgically repaired knees and all.
Watching clips of Allen's workout, you could clearly see he is still hurt. He was running like he had concrete blocks on his feet and that's not what he looks like on film. He's not a blazer, but he's not that sluggish. If your doctors clear him, I still think he's a very good WR prospect that could very well turn into Anquan Boldin (if healthy, he would have ran a much faster 40 than Boldin). People around here don't give him very much credit, but I see a good player when I watch him, and while I may not be any kind of scout, I do know the WR position. More than likely he is going to fall in the draft and IMO more than likely someone is going to get a steal with this guy. If he's around in the 2nd round I wouldn't hesitate one minute in drafting him if I were Jeff Ireland.
Would you still take him if we took Austin at 12? I remember another WR that ran a 4.71 40 from Mississippi Valley State...he turned out to be pretty good IIRC.
How much would his stock plummet if he just said "I'm not in any shape to run" As opposed to running a 4.75?
Keep it this way please. No one cares if you guys dont agree on a few points but the prior stuff wasnt really what I want to read here. Keep it clean.
No, I wouldn't take him if we took Austin at 12. And I don't think he'll be there anyway. GMs ultimately go to the game film over 40 times and I think he'll be a 1st round pick or very early 2nd.
Ditto. Woods and Allen were the guys who were mentioned long ago as potential 1st round WRs, if not top 10-15 guys but when I watched them on video I just didn't see anything special. I saw competent guys with a high floor, but low ceiling. Sizewise, however, if you are one of those people who buys into the thought that because the Packers took several receivers in the 6'0"-6'2" 200-25lbs type range, that now Philbin will have Ireland getting him the same types of WRs here then you have to think Woods and Allen would be targets for the Dolphins in round two. Though, personally, I hope not.
Keenan Allen and Robert woods are now officially underrated..I think if your valuing them as 2nd rounders, you would be getting very good value for your picks. Robert woods is gonna be a good player, in his rookie year..best route runner in the draft, and can separate out of his breaks, that is an outstanding combination to have as a receiver..if we didn't sign Gibson, Allen and Woods would be #2 and #3 after Austin..
In another thread, CK discussed the cyclical nature of QBs in the draft cycle. I feel like you can say the same thing about WRs right now. Every night I download that day's Path to the Draft to unwind a bit. If you were to trace the discussion on the show, on twitter, in mock drafts - I think you'd see a pattern of WR evaluation. Post-Senior Bowl and until around a month after that, the hot guys were Stedman Bailey, Markus Wheaton, Quinton Patton, and Terrance Williams. All could be listed as top 5 guys. I know part of that is because we just saw that at the Senior Bowl and they're fresh, but I think analysts and online draftniks are feeling more adventurous during the time period up until mid-March. Then suddenly, everyone loves the big name guys. You couldn't pay anyone to talk about either of the four guys I listed above on air or on Twitter. Now, Robert Woods is hyped as a late first round receiver (Mayock just ranked him 5th, bumping Patton), Justin Hunter suddenly doesn't have stone hands and is in consideration in the late 1st and early 2nd, and Mayock among others are dismissing Allen's 40 time when that would have devastated any of the other prospects. I don't know if this trend is true of other years, or if it just feels like everyone is moving back into the 'safe zone' now. Maybe the rankings are just equalizing to how they'll turn out in the draft and I'm crazy for liking Patton and Bailey as much as I do. Regardless, it seems as if the prototype receiver is everyone's friend nowadays.
Good chance you are right about JI. And, I think they could see him as a guy who can step into the GB route tree and fit in. I think there are positives for Keenan Allen but he doesn't ever seem to make big plays (or didn't last year). If you look at some of his games from his JR. season, he looks a bit quicker to me. Which makes sense given the injury he had in the spring. But, if we were looking WR after #12 then names like Hopkins or Woods or Bailey are there.
If I've said this once I've said this a million times. Size matters, but it's thickness and width they want.
the hot guys is a term for the tv experts..some folks identify their prospects early, and others have to play catch up, or until they at least start watching enough reps. It's what we do here, what makes the game fun. Woods was always top 5 imo.
I'm glad you brought this up. I recently watched some tape of Stedman, and I was noticing how his speed on the football field was not at all reflected in his combine 40 time. I saw multiple situations where he was running away from defenders. He did not look like a 4.6 guy.
