1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Rob Rang weighs in.

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by smahtaz, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. CANDolphan

    CANDolphan Well-Known Member

    1,006
    546
    113
    Feb 18, 2012
    I'm more curious about even a tier 3 or tier 4 law school that doesn't require a bachelor's degree. What an odd thing to say.
     
    azfinfanmang likes this.
  2. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007


    ITT? Nah, even they would require a Bachelors.


    University of Phoenix? Maybe...


    Is DaVrie institute still around?
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    LOL.

    I like Ansah. If he were valued differently then I'd like him a lot more. He's being touted as mid-1st or even top-1st value and I don't get that. There's a lot of RISK that people are commonly discounting and I'm not sure they should discount it. Football isn't his first love, or even his second love, arguably not even his third love, and in many ways it shows. It shows when even after 3 years he doesn't know things my 11 year old nephew knows after being involved pee wee football for only 1 year. It shows in my opinion when he doesn't take the Combine seriously enough to bother training for it like 99% of the other highly rated athletes do. It shows when he starts to garner a reputation for being a poor practice player but a good gamer. All of this represents a risk. It doesn't tank him. It's a risk that is not being discounted in his stock.

    Additionally there's the simple fact that he doesn't beat offensive tackles and blockers the way other pass rusher in the draft do, not nearly as often. They say, it's because he's raw. Maybe so. But lots of guys have great physical ability and never become good football players. What's the difference here? What makes him different? If I want an incredible athlete that is raw then I can draft Lawrence Okoye. Am I doing that in the 1st round? Am I doing it in the 3rd round? Neither. Because there are lots of Lawrence Okoyes out there. And believe it or not...there are lots of Ezekiel Ansahs. So what EXACTLY am I buying here? What is special?

    The answer I keep coming back to is his combination of strength and motor. He's not just an athlete. He's got great strength and great motor, great range. He makes plays that way. That's what makes him different from a Lawrence Okoye that shows up at a Regional Combine and leaves everyone with their mouths open. Ansah reacts well, changes direction well, runs around on a football field with great range and motor and strength and he can find the ball.

    But you, Damontre Moore does that too...though he's not as strong. John Simon does that. Nobody minds being down on him. Jarret Johnson does that. He's not considered a high caliber player. Chris Kelsay and Robert Geathers do that. Israel Idonije does that. Can't be the only thing you've got going for you. You have to have more.
     
    azfinfanmang, jim1 and smahtaz like this.
  4. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    Larry Okoye is a kid that intrigues me. I was reading a few things about him. Does anybody have footage of him on the field? I won't hold the fact he is Simon's countryman against him....but only cause he is also the Countryman of my friend Brian Antrill :shifty: .... Whitedolphin54 to most of you.


    Actually, another kid that Ziggy reminds me of (I already mentioned Ghoulston, and I stick by that), IS in this draft, and like Dion Jordan, is listed as a DE but should probably project into a linebacker..and I was also very underwhelmed by Alex Okafor...but like Vacarro, much of this might be because, being in Dallas, I am CONSTANTLY told how great they are, and I saw a very different picture.
     
  5. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Stansly Maponga?

    Okafor kind of grew on me- not fast and I have a problem with that, but good size, productive and he knows how to play the position.
     
  6. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    Well, he doesn't have good size for a true DE. He would certainly need to add some lbs. He does know how to play, but I also watched him get thrown around some.

    I think he would be a very serviceable pro. I honestly wouldn't see him as an upgrade to anybody on our starting front. IF he were to fall to us at like....4, then sure. He would be a good guy for rotation (IF he puts on weight) or a fill in at OLB in situations and special teams.

    I was plugged FULL of how this kid was going to dominate this year, and much like the entire Longhorn team, he really didn't. So as I mentioned, it probably has some to do with being let down from the buildup.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Dion Jordan has been a LB at Oregon and he should be a LB in the NFL. Some teams might look at him at DE but I don't know if that's wise. I'm not very well reminded of Ansah when I watch him though.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,650
    67,540
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    That gives me better perspective on your level of criticism, he's not Dion Jordan, but I do have him as a first round pick, def not top 5 where some have him.
     
    jim1 likes this.
  9. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    What DE that should be a LB are you referring to? maybe you're referring to Okafor, I thought that you might be referring to a different player.
     
    azfinfanmang likes this.
  10. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    Sorry. I kind've danced around it in my first post. I am referring to Okafor.
     
  11. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    I was liking Okafor to Dion Jordon, not Ansah.


    EDIT: Actually, my bad. I did liken Okafor to Ansah. I'm starting to confuse myself.
     
    jim1 likes this.
  12. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    For me the bottom line is that if I draft a DE high, I'm going to want him to generate a primary pass rush- beat OTs, get to the QB. Chasing down QBs on broken plays just isn't enough, I'd draft Okafor before I would Ansah. No matter how you cut it Ansah, for all that he has to offer, including using his strength to shed OL and get to RBs, has a gaping hole in his game. And that will be a problem imo.
     
    azfinfanmang likes this.
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I thought Alex Okafor was every bit of a difference maker. He just wasn't surrounded by very many other difference makers at Texas and so the defense was nothing like what it's been in the past.

    In the pros I very much like to look at PFF statistics, not necessarily the ratings but the STATS which show pressures. Pressure is just as important as sacks. Pressures lead to incomplete passes, drive failures, sacks, fumbles, penalties, interceptions, all manner of bad things. One thing I like to track is pass rush snaps per pressure of individual defensive line players.

    Here's the snaps per pressure of the pass rushers in this draft (obviously, the lower the better):

    Alex Okafor - 6.49x
    Tank Carradine - 7.31x
    Bjoern Werner - 8.50x
    John Simon - 9.11x
    Barkevious Mingo - 9.63x
    Damontre Moore - 10.13x
    Dion Jordan - 10.64x
    Sam Montgomery - 12.00x
    Corey Lemonier - 12.09x
    Datone Jones - 14.09x

    Alex Okafor was arguably the most successful and PRODUCTIVE pass rusher in the draft this year.
     
    Bpk, Da 'Fins, surferosa and 2 others like this.
  14. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    I'm curious, where's Ansah on that list, how does he stack up?
     
    Bpk likes this.
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I don't know. The guy that did it did not include Ansah. I don't imagine he's high. Probably very low. I asked him to include Devin Taylor. No luck.

    He has INDIRECT access to a program called STATS ICE which tallies all this type of stuff for organizations that pay mucho dinero for it. But the access is indirect and takes a long time to get it and so he's just stopped bothering to ask for more.

    My own research on Devin Taylor suggests his stat could be as high (or low, I guess) as Alex Okafor's, especially in 2011.
     
    azfinfanmang and jim1 like this.
  16. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    People who grew up in America have a familiarity with football, whether they played on a team or not. Most boys have had to at least throw a ball in gym class, at a picnic pick up game with the family, or at worst, have seen a Superbowl and other games. It's not a foreign concept to them. If I asked you to learn the sport of AYO and perform against the best African AYO players, it may go differently than you having to play, say, water polo even if you have never been on a water polo team before. You will have a clue what the game is, how it looks, who kind of does what and thus will be less clueless out there.

    I agree with you, by the way, that it's a horrendous red flag that he has learned VERY little in three years. I truly agree. I am even more disturbed that he doesn't seem to care enough to prepare for a combine both physically and mentally. And remember, when I first watched Ansah and started a thread on him I was EFFUSIVE about his potential to be the most disruptive D line player in YEARS. But these habits and attitudes of his have me very very concerned too.

    I just don't think it's a fair argument to compare him to Americans who grew up around the sport, even if not particpating. I mean, for gosh sakes, to use Sean Smith as an example at CB because he played WR before that? Not the same as Ansah's transition. It's not that I disagree with the thrust of your argument, it's that I want this to stay fair and reasonable.

    And of course potential means a lot in the draft and scouting process. It always has and always will. Otherwise many players like Ansah would never go as high as they do. Rightly or wrongly.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    You're pretty much taking a snap shot of what Zeke Ansah (or anyone, really) had to be feeling about football at the VERY BEGINNING, and projecting that same feeling about the sport onto him 1100+ days later. No, I wouldn't have any fahking clue what AYO should look like or how I should play it, what I should look like playing it, etc. But if I planned on making millions of dollars playing it? You can damn well bet I'd know those things within 100 days, let alone 1000+ days. I'd be a god damn expert on the sport.

    The reason I brought up Sean Smith is because we were talking about muscle memory and technique. The muscle memory and technique involved at corner is a whole lot different than the muscle memory and technique at wide receiver. Yes he would be familiar with football concepts from having played in high school and in college. But that doesn't mean he would have much advantage in terms of getting the technique for corner play down.
     
  18. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yes yes yes and no no no Chris. Yes for the risk and overvaluing. I would consider starting to look at Ansah aorund 25. No on the thinking it's just his strength and motor. Those are part of it. He quite simply has great instinct for diagnosing plays, sometimes in unconventional ways, and DISRUPTING them. He is a nightmare for blocking schemes because he is not going to be where he is 'supposed to be' as an American Football player. That ignorance means he doesn't seem to overthink things. He does what Alan Page so beautifully expressed by saying it seemed to him that the object was to disrupt the offense from being able to execute, and the best way to do that was to take the shortest path to where the offense wanted to go. Ansah does that very very well. He seems to have amazing instincts at figuring out what's GOING to happen, not just what's happening. Combined with what I think is the best SECOND THIRD and FOURTH steps of any D lineman in this draft and he could be terrifying to handle. Especially as the NFL moves to more spreads and less in-line power run offenses.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    If Ansah is only a pursuit player who doesn't win battles at the LOS then why did so many opposing Defensive Coordinators frequently double him? Even against double teams he holds his own. For those who disagree, watch the film. If Ansah doesn't win battles at the LOS then everyone else at the Senior Bowl is a pile of dog ****. He was the defensive MVP of the top college all star game comprised of significantly more experienced players who have mostly been around the game since before high school. He was rarely lined up at 7 and 9 technique at BYU so obviously his pass rush elements are still in their developmental stage. He's essentially a white or yellow belt as a pass rusher yet you seem compelled to compare him to the standards of a significantly more experienced level, which is erroneous. It's like you take the technical aspect of the game for granted, as if it could be picked up during a weekend class, and as if the guys trying to stop Ansah haven't spent a greater number of years technically working on their skills.

    Let's roll through Ansah's check list: he's an athletic, twitchy end who plays with a rare combination of power, leverage, strong hands, balance, coordination (including hand-eye), length, and an instinctual feel for the game, taking angles, and keeping his feet clean (including cut blocks), all the while is able to abruptly stop & redirect and finish with a tremendous closing burst. That's a top notch list of intangibles as far as a quality NFL pass rusher goes. It's a great list of intangibles to develop a strong & effective pass rush repertoire with.

    [video=youtube;F3mGBlGYLsQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3mGBlGYLsQ[/video]
     
  20. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you on the mental aspect, at the end of the day.

    If anything I'm really pissed off at Ansah because he has some amazing potential, but I doubt he reaches it.

    I am on the fence as to whether I would even touch him in the first round... and again, I truly believe he could be one of the most disruptive D linemen in all of football... if he focused on it.
     
  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Look, where some people are impressed Ansah did as well as he has without applying himself, I think it's insane to tout that as a positive unless you have damned good reason to think the lightbulb has come on.

    But coaches are arrogant. They will believe they can mold him and get the most from him. That's hubris.
     
  22. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I think where Ansah gets very scary as he develops, is moving INSIDE to nickel DT on passing downs. By his third year in this league he will be a terror inside, if used properly, coached well.. and if he gets his attitude improved about working at this as a profession.

    I agree with Chris that it's like ten red flags that he doesn;t know jack squat about a game he could make millions from.
     
  23. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Todd, let's be honest though (because both you and I are in awe of this man's raw prowess and ability)... he has a ****ty first step. NOT a classical arc-neding pass rusher. And not going to win with a club move to get to the QB either.

    The thing is, Ansah, paired with a guy like Wake, would be hell for an O-line to handle. You place Wake on the tackle with the slowest kicslide, and Ansah on the weaker tackle. Have fun.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    You're saying he disrupts plays because he lacks valid instincts. First off, I don't see it that way. Second, even if that were true it's not going to persist over time.
     
  25. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    There's a benefit to having the ability to develop into a pass rusher who doesn't have to rely on mostly running the arc like typical speed rushers do. It keeps him more in front of the action and in better position to make a play, clog passing lanes, bat down passes, sniff out screens, contain escaping QBs, stuff draws & delayed handoffs, and maintain better gap control vs the run. I agree, it's not the greatest first step, but IMO he's not the type of end who has to rely on an elite first step; however he has shown times where it can be good enough to get by on when factoring in the rest of his ability.

    Personally I'd rather have a more complete package of an end like Ansah opposite Wake than another arc-bending type rusher b/c I'm not a fan of leaving passing & running lanes open for QBs to either pick us apart or scramble for easy yards on plays where our ends get little outside pressure.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I thought the Senior Bowl tape showed what he is, truth be told.

    I have him as having beat his block on 9 of 32 pass blocks.

    He beat Quessenberry and a chip block from Otten on the play where the QB scrambled to his side which helped him get free of Quessenberry because it changed the angles. That was the only time he went up against Quessenberry in pass rush.

    He went up against Wagner 12 times and beat him 2 times. He went up against Justin Pugh 10 times and beat him 2 times. Kyle Juszczyk stoned him 2 times. He went up against tight ends in pass rush 7 times and beat them 2 times. He lost his practice reps against Jordan Mills and Xavier Nixon in practice and it's generally accepted he had a poor week of practice.

    What I really liked is what he did against the run and the rollout. He stayed at home on 2 rollout passes where nobody blocked him and so he was able to pressure the passer 2 times that way. I had him actually challenged on run plays about 8 times and he won on 5 of those occasions. He also was able to chase down 2 plays and get into the mix from a motor standpoint, unblocked coming from the non play side.
     
    ssmiami, Bpk, Gunner and 1 other person like this.
  27. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    He also tipped at least 1 pass IIRC, so I'd call that a win even if he wasn't able to get a pressure.
     
  28. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    He'll probably end up in Buffalo or NY, and ironically the posters here who dislike Ansah as an option for Miami will grow to dislike him even more when he's playing for a divisional rival and wreaking havoc against our offense over the next decade.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    To me it's not a win unless someone lost. Justin Pugh did not lose that match up. He did well on it. It's the QB's job to make sure he's got a free passing lane.

    I'm starting to sense that maybe Ansah isn't going to go high after all. I think the media buzz around him has died down since its crescendo around the time of the Combine, everyone being all misty eyed about how well he did at the Combine without even really training properly, etc. Now everyone's kind of settling in and looking at the fit and the matches and to me if the Jaguars pass on him at 2 then he might be in for a longer day because the Raiders have a similar player already in Lamarr Houston, the Eagles have plenty going on there, the Lions need more of an alpha pass rusher not necessarily a motor guy, between Sheard and Kruger the Browns seem full up unless they think of Ansah as a 3-4 DE. I'm not sure if the Cardinals would see him as a 3-4 OLB and they've got plenty of 3-4 DLs. The Bills are kind of stuck in a DE investment hangover, and the Jets need a different kind of player from Ansah. The Titans seem to have plenty going on at DE with Morgan and Wimbley. The Saints have Cameron Jordan who is a similar player. The Panthers don't need him at all. The Cowboys don't seem onto this position, for good reason. The Giants wouldn't be onto it. The Bears think they've got what they need opposite Peppers in Corey Wootton. The Rams are full up at the position with Long and Quinn.

    Essentially if the Jaguars pass on him I think it comes down to the Chargers, Dolphins and Buccaneers.
     
  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    The North squad lost a completion on the designed screen b/c Pugh couldn't prevent Ansah from disrupting the passing lane, so I'd call that a win, myself, whereas an arc-running pass rusher would've immediately taken himself out of the play and opened up an easy completion. IMO Pugh was more responsible for clearing the passing lane than Nassib was for trying to find an open one; if he knows it's a screen to his side he could've at least tried to cut Ansah knowing he's always a threat to swat a pass.
     
  31. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007

    Feels good to pat myself on the back every once in awhile...considering how much I have been screwing up lately, especially with stats (Does Grimes REALLY have 13 INT's????


    Please please please don't let this kid go to the Phins. I just see another infamous WIP when we really need a PRTS (Player Ready To Start) with that number 12
     
  32. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

    36,936
    10,264
    0
    Mar 25, 2008
    Thee...Ohio State University

    Works both ways, Jason Pierre-Paul was thought to be all hype. So don't bend that arm too much just yet sunshine.
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    I'd pass on he and Werner

    Just not seeing the explosiviness
     
    Boik14 and mbsinmisc like this.
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,650
    67,540
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I'd pass on Carradine, and I would take Ansah over Mingo in a heart beat, if those were my choices.
     
  35. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    34,737
    47,799
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    I doubt that as well, at this point, but when I said later on - I meant trading down and selecting him, not waiting to the 2nd, if we were wanting a DE that is (I'd rather trade down than select Ansah at DE).
     
  36. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    775
    1,407
    93
    Jul 29, 2012
    Since I've now moved over here, I might as well comment on this. I'm the guy with indirect access, and CK is right. It's slow, painful and incomplete.

    Disregarding that, I have the number of pressures and sacks for Ansah, but not the number of snaps (another incomplete piece of data...)

    Ansah had 21 pressures and 4.5 sacks for a total of 25.5 total "pressures". BYU faced 378 passes last year, if we guess that Ansah rushed the passer on roughly 75% of those (total guess), that means he had 239 pass rush snaps.

    That comes out to a snaps per pressure of about 11.37, which would put him 4th to last among the other pass rushers CK listed.

    The lowest number of snaps any of those pass rushers had rushing the passer was Dion Jordan at 232 snaps. If Ansah rushed the passer only that many times, his SPP would be 9.18. 5th highest in the group, but still around average, nothing spectacular.

    Hope that clears some things up. (And CK, sorry about not being able to get the Devin Taylor data to you, I don't even have what I need for a RB post)
     
    Boomer, Bpk, ckparrothead and 4 others like this.
  37. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    75,121
    37,639
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    I saw JPP in college and for a few years now with the NYG and I cant see the comparison to Ansah. Maybe a light version? Maybe in comparison to how raw they were/are? Werner is going to be a safer pick and Im not a huge fan there but I think there is a higher floor but lower ceiling.

    Mingo doesnt do much for me at this point. I still like his teammate Sam Montgomery better based on where they figure to go and upside. Carradine and Okafor are the guys you look at in round 2 imo

    I like Dion Jordan but I dont think we will be there for us at 12.
     
  38. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

    29,745
    11,512
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    Yeah, so was Verne Ghoulston.....there sunshine :up:



    I honestly don't know what you have been watching in regards to Ziggy, but I see ZERO JPP in his game. None.
     
  39. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    I don't know about that. From what I've seen, Werner seems to have a great 1st step, some pretty violent hands and good closing speed.
     
    jim1 likes this.
  40. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    34,737
    47,799
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    I liked Ansah's pursuit and motor and strength in that video.

    What I found interesting is that Cornelius Washington looked like he often got off the ball faster and deeper than Ansah on a number of pass rush plays (I know several plays Ansah was strongside and did more of read).

    Not saying Washington is the same player but he was pretty quick off the ball and also seemed to be able to really get some push on the OT back into the QB. There might not be that enough of a difference to take Ansah at 12 (or mid round 1) over a kid like Washington in round 2.
     

Share This Page